Kings after OG

#31
I don't think both is an option but I am not nearly as high on Beal as you are but OG would offset the defensive concerns I have (still not sure about age/injuries/contract)
I'm high on anyone or anything that checks the boxes needing checked and both do but check different ones. I think Beal checks the production one so that the offense doesn't have a fizzle like it did once the fantasy ball proved to be a fantasy. I mean it looked like the exact J-Will into Bibby situation. That team needed scoring above the passing even though they were a passing team. Fox needs someone that can help carry the load and while Monk did admirably, he did it in the up and down way he has in his career. I'm not sure how far that can carry them. OG adds an athletic dynamic they don't have which as said above is pretty similar to the Nuggets. My concern there is OK, there's still a talent gap between Jokic and Domas though so who picks up that slack? It's possible OG can be a little better as a scorer than Gordon but it's a gamble.
 
#34
The other thing why Beal could be a better option is that Beal basically has all the power here. His clause is basically stupid. Fox and Domas buttering him up enough and the deal is done unless the Wizards want to completely tank their locker room. Imagine the beam lit bright, spelling out this phrase into the clouds: "Gavin Maloof will mow your lawn for life". haha.
 
#35
OG could not be a more seamless fit, but I'm going to be furious if Keegan is included in any trade this summer. Anything without Keegan? Eh, I might complain a bit, but as long as you're adding to Fox/Domas/Keegan, it'll probably end up being okay.
keegan better not be even offered unless it’s for Siakam/OG
 
#37
I’m definitely enjoying these trade talks. If its a shot at OG vs Beal I’d lean OG. Mainly because I would love to get Monk starting next to Fox.
Murray gained my respect especially in the playoffs, not interested in any trade involving him.
 
#40
Beal stunts Keegan’s growth just say no and I agree with that one tweet Toronto is gonna want the sun and moon for OG
Monte's looking to win, not for growth if these rumors are true. And good for him because he has basically 1 shot and it's now to pull something like this off. Beal I think would actually help get Murray more shots. If anyone would stunt Keegans growth it's probably another F. If the Kings land OG and get Sasha to come over I think there could actually be potential for Keegan to take a hit on minutes at times if Sasha is the real deal. OG and Sasha could very easily gobble up a bunch of those F minutes together. Upgrading the guard spot and putting a role guy next to Keegan should keep Keegan in the clear and push him up to actual starters minutes.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#42
My concern there is OK, there's still a talent gap between Jokic and Domas though so who picks up that slack? It's possible OG can be a little better as a scorer than Gordon but it's a gamble.
But who is their Fox?

I'd like to think that the NBA is prepared to spotlight the Kings next season based on how our series was rated vs. the Dubs and that the national media has awoken to the team. In that event I don't think we'd see a repeat of what happened in the Dubs series because no way if Domas plays the regular season as a recognized all star does he get jobbed out to a Kevon Looney.

I definitely think this team will ultimately make a move of the JWill for Bibby move, but we did that after three years. Doing too much after one season worries me because we've seen bad teams do this after one good year and go right back to being hopeless (ATL, MIN)
 
#43
But who is their Fox?

I'd like to think that the NBA is prepared to spotlight the Kings next season based on how our series was rated vs. the Dubs and that the national media has awoken to the team. In that event I don't think we'd see a repeat of what happened in the Dubs series because no way if Domas plays the regular season as a recognized all star does he get jobbed out to a Kevon Looney.

I definitely think this team will ultimately make a move of the JWill for Bibby move, but we did that after three years. Doing too much after one season worries me because we've seen bad teams do this after one good year and go right back to being hopeless (ATL, MIN)
Murray or Jokic. Take your pick. I would say Fox is a little better than Murray but Jokic is a verified MVP and finals MVP. There's your gap.

Timing wise this team contractually is actually farther ahead on timelines though. Remember, Peja was about the same age as Davion by the time the Kings were legit CONTENDERS and not much older than Keegan. Same with Bibby. The timing isn't the same and can't be looked at the same way. Monte is like one season away from two max contracts and on the doorstep for his Hedo (Barnes) needing to be signed and one season from his BoJax being a FA (Monk). Petrie was actually pretty quick with his build back then considering his timeline. He didn't wait until J-Will or Peja were on max contracts or nearing so before starting the process. Monte didn't waste his own time, but it was wasted for him. He has to act now if he doesn't want to have tear major chunks out of his roster to make improvements later. If even possible. Once that bit of cap space is gone, you have to start looking at comparable money and that's either Fox or Domas at some point since the other salaries will be tough to match. Monte's "Bibby" move is staring him in the face now. He has his Webber in Fox and maybe his Vlade with Domas.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#44
Murray or Jokic. Take your pick. I would say Fox is a little better than Murray but Jokic is a verified MVP and finals MVP. There's your gap.
If we give Jokic (deservedly and without question) the nod over Domas the same applies to Fox over Murray, imho.

I think I agree with your assessment about Fox/Webber and Vlade/Domas, and I think Keegs is potentially the Peja piece btw. And that's why I really think we have to see one more year of this. But I also fully understand.

I guess if we had a crystal ball to see who was disappointing everyone around the league at the next trade deadline that would help.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#46
Sure, but it's a question of A + B = ? I think it's clear by the results, you have to say Murray/Jokic = more in total. How much more in reality is up for debate but certainly more.
They've had more time together. I'm high on their tandem so I'm not trying to denigrate them, especially after they won the ultimate prize. But they certainly had a few disappointments to get there just as we did this year. I at least think as far as Fox goes, the national media seems to have fallen in love with him during the GSW series, so there's a real solid chance he starts getting star treatment which is still eluding Jokic to some extent (I'd say he gets better calls than Domas for certain, but for a multi-MVP he sure got a crap whistle during this run).
 
#47
They've had more time together. I'm high on their tandem so I'm not trying to denigrate them, especially after they won the ultimate prize. But they certainly had a few disappointments to get there just as we did this year. I at least think as far as Fox goes, the national media seems to have fallen in love with him during the GSW series, so there's a real solid chance he starts getting star treatment which is still eluding Jokic to some extent (I'd say he gets better calls than Domas for certain, but for a multi-MVP he sure got a crap whistle during this run).
But we pretty much know their peaks as talents. Domas is quite a bit a ways from Jokic as a go to and I don't think the gap between Murray and Fox is enough to come close to balancing it out.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#49
But we pretty much know their peaks as talents. Domas is quite a bit a ways from Jokic as a go to and I don't think the gap between Murray and Fox is enough to come close to balancing it out.
I don't think we know the peaks of this core though.

I just haven't spent much time evaluating Beal's fit, so right now this is feeling like "oh this big name is available here's our chance" and I'm not sure there won't be other chances later when we really know what we need. Wing defense was the top of my wishlist in our post mortem and that's not what Beal brings to the table. Plus the whole age/injury/contract status. OG I don't think is worth what Toronto probably thinks he is, but he's a perfect fit and on a similar timeline/age as our core.
 
#52
I don't think we know the peaks of this core though.

I just haven't spent much time evaluating Beal's fit, so right now this is feeling like "oh this big name is available here's our chance" and I'm not sure there won't be other chances later when we really know what we need. Wing defense was the top of my wishlist in our post mortem and that's not what Beal brings to the table. Plus the whole age/injury/contract status. OG I don't think is worth what Toronto probably thinks he is, but he's a perfect fit and on a similar timeline/age as our core.
Maybe, but we know what happened in the playoffs. Was it an anomaly? Personally, I don't think so. I brought up during the season how the shot distribution looked very unusual. Come playoff time what changed? The offense, and that exact distribution chart morphed into one that looked like most other teams. You have a few guys on top getting shots and the rest are your role guys. Not Fox and then everyone else sharing dinner like the regular season. The other thing is while not experienced per se, this team is also not exactly super young. Even their youth is like I said, nearing the same age as Peja and Bibby by the time the Kings were in the thick of it. They aren't old but they are the doorstep to when you want to actually start contending. Beal at 30 isn't old. His time out does concern me though.

If the Kings were only interested in age timelines the last go around then you don't have Vlade or DC. Webber was actually the same age as Fox is now when the Kings traded for him.

I'll lay out my reasoning behind a Beal trade being positive. You may agree, disagree, it may be proven to be the worst move in franchise history if made, who knows, haha. But IMO, it's worth a shot if the price is right.

1. Beal as a player had his most competitive seasons as a SG next to John Wall. A player for years many consider to be similar to Fox. Fox actually has a more versatile game than Wall so I think with a coach like Brown, they'll be seamless. Beal can run a team's offense as a true go to. That will take crazy pressure off of Fox and we know, Fox can't do it all by himself and shouldn't have to. He did his best in the playoffs but that injury luck ran out, again.

2. Beal has reportedly expressed interest in playing next to Domas. And that's prior to Domas being a bit of a league darling as he was last season. That shows me Beal saw something there. Maybe not though, that's conjecture obviously but why would that be a name of all names to leak as being Beals preference? Just seems strange.

3. The Kings have the last bit of cap space they'll have for this run NOW. I've heard people say wait until 2024 but that's the year you sign Domas to a max. In order to have space they'd have to do a bunch of stuff now and then to have any space. Literally if they want to keep Davion and Keegan they'd have to let Barnes walk or sign everyone they get this season to no more than a 1 year contract and probably still have to find a place to dump Huerter and Holmes, most certainly let Monk walk and that's just to land a player on Beals kind of salary level with having to trade for it, which again, might not even be probable. Then you're also left with a shell of a team.
 
#53
Jokic is basically a top 10 player of all time
If he retired tomorrow, he'd pretty easily be in my top 20. I don't the case is quite there yet for top 10. But he absolutely has the potential to best anyone from this era outside of LeBron. If he ends his career with another MVP or two and a few more rings? Now you're getting into Duncan/Shaq/Steph territory in the 5-7 range.
 
#54
Jokic is basically a top 10 player of all time
I make it a rule to never judge a player in total while at their peak and while the picture is only half painted when compared to the complete picture of anyone else that has decline factored in. This is how people get those "Harden is better than Jordan!" kinds of stuff, haha. Jokic has got a chance though but that's to be decided once we see what his downside is like.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#55
Maybe, but we know what happened in the playoffs. Was it an anomaly? Personally, I don't think so. I brought up during the season how the shot distribution looked very unusual. Come playoff time what changed? The offense, and that exact distribution chart morphed into one that looked like most other teams. You have a few guys on top getting shots and the rest are your role guys. Not Fox and then everyone else sharing dinner like the regular season. The other thing is while not experienced per se, this team is also not exactly super young. Even their youth is like I said, nearing the same age as Peja and Bibby by the time the Kings were in the thick of it. They aren't old but they are the doorstep to when you want to actually start contending. Beal at 30 isn't old. His time out does concern me though.

If the Kings were only interested in age timelines the last go around then you don't have Vlade or DC. Webber was actually the same age as Fox is now when the Kings traded for him.

I'll lay out my reasoning behind a Beal trade being positive. You may agree, disagree, it may be proven to be the worst move in franchise history if made, who knows, haha. But IMO, it's worth a shot if the price is right.

1. Beal as a player had his most competitive seasons as a SG next to John Wall. A player for years many consider to be similar to Fox. Fox actually has a more versatile game than Wall so I think with a coach like Brown, they'll be seamless. Beal can run a team's offense as a true go to. That will take crazy pressure off of Fox and we know, Fox can't do it all by himself and shouldn't have to. He did his best in the playoffs but that injury luck ran out, again.

2. Beal has reportedly expressed interest in playing next to Domas. And that's prior to Domas being a bit of a league darling as he was last season. That shows me Beal saw something there. Maybe not though, that's conjecture obviously but why would that be a name of all names to leak as being Beals preference? Just seems strange.

3. The Kings have the last bit of cap space they'll have for this run NOW. I've heard people say wait until 2024 but that's the year you sign Domas to a max. In order to have space they'd have to do a bunch of stuff now and then to have any space. Literally if they want to keep Davion and Keegan they'd have to let Barnes walk or sign everyone they get this season to no more than a 1 year contract and probably still have to find a place to dump Huerter and Holmes, most certainly let Monk walk and that's just to land a player on Beals kind of salary level with having to trade for it, which again, might not even be probable. Then you're also left with a shell of a team.
WRT age timelines, I'm more concerned that Beal's best days are past him and yet his prime pay days are the next four years. I've heard people say he has the Wiz over a barrel right now because of his contract and no-trade being so unique, so guess who owns that barrel if we do bring him on and he can only go 40 games next season?

I have no doubt that a prime Beal can work, I am just not sold that's who we are getting.

Also you mentioned earlier you don't think the new CBA outlook is as bleak as almost everyone else who has analyzed it does. But there's a lot of rules in it that eliminate the MLE for teams past a certain level, or allow buy out deals and even minimum signings. We also presumably will be paying Keegan over 20 million on his next deal. I just don't see how this isn't crippling if it doesn't work.

Also Domas hasn't re-signed yet, let's say Beal completely altered every piece of chemistry and damages that?
Like if Ant's second contract was up next year, could you see him re-signing with Minnesota instead of picking a team that isn't crippled after they blew it on the Gobert deal?
 

Kingz19

Hall of Famer
#59
OG could not be a more seamless fit, but I'm going to be furious if Keegan is included in any trade this summer. Anything without Keegan? Eh, I might complain a bit, but as long as you're adding to Fox/Domas/Keegan, it'll probably end up being okay.
id be very angry if Keegan is included for a potential rental.

The best active Kings player I would part with is Davion and some draft compensation. Id consider Huerter too but it’s still risky.

OG is fine player but he hasn’t established himself to the point where teams are going to make a big risk to bring him in. The longer they wait the less he is worth on the market.

Plus, going into a free agency where you’ll have to retain both Domas and OG seems pretty daunting even if we acquire OG for a fair package
 
#60
WRT age timelines, I'm more concerned that Beal's best days are past him and yet his prime pay days are the next four years. I've heard people say he has the Wiz over a barrel right now because of his contract and no-trade being so unique, so guess who owns that barrel if we do bring him on and he can only go 40 games next season?

I have no doubt that a prime Beal can work, I am just not sold that's who we are getting.

Also you mentioned earlier you don't think the new CBA outlook is as bleak as almost everyone else who has analyzed it does. But there's a lot of rules in it that eliminate the MLE for teams past a certain level, or allow buy out deals and even minimum signings. We also presumably will be paying Keegan over 20 million on his next deal. I just don't see how this isn't crippling if it doesn't work.

Also Domas hasn't re-signed yet, let's say Beal completely altered every piece of chemistry and damages that?
Like if Ant's second contract was up next year, could you see him re-signing with Minnesota instead of picking a team that isn't crippled after they blew it on the Gobert deal?
Yeah, this is where the Kings really have to be careful. Unless behind close doors, Domas has 100% said "I'm here as long as I get the max", then you do have to operate some level of caution until he signs on the dotted line.

Imagine you go all in for Beal or OG and then Domas doesn't resign. Uh-oh, all of a sudden you just set the franchise back 5+ years and are basically forced to trade Fox in order to get any sort of rebuild assets back.