Keegan Murray

[PorchSurfin]

Bags is going to end up making $73m by the end of his new Pistons contract and his family is likely going to produce three NBA players.

What is your point? That his Dad's garbage is going to make them money?

Sorry bud, I'm a Kings fan. I care about the Kings Ws and Ls.

I'm well entitled to take potshots at former players (and their families) who take/took potshots at Sacramento/the Kings.

You defending and/or validating and/or justifying those people makes you a target, just like them. Don't be a target.

 

[The_Jamal]

Take away the label of 2, 3 or 4. Basically, Brown is saying he can put Keegan in with any lineup with a ball handler and a big body to handle opposing Cs and they can work out the rest because of his versatility. Sounds ideal.

Yeah, I think the Celtics started coining the new "positions" a few years back, but the traditional 5 man listings don't really apply anymore:

Ball-Handlers
Wings
Bigs

Offensively, the 2-4 is 100% interchangeable now.

 

[PorchSurfin]

It's also important to note that we've gained some size this year, so guys like Keegan will have a bit more opportunity to play in big-ball lineups. Last year, we gave essentially half of our minutes (49.8%) to guys at 6'6" and under (and 46.3% to guys 6'5" and under, including 4 of our top 5 players in total minutes). This year, we're going to start 4 guys at 6'7"+ (assuming Huerter sticks at the starting 2).

Assuming Metu doesn't get axed, we'll have 9 guys at 6'7"+ on our opening day roster, with 6-7 definitely getting minutes
Sabonis
Murray
Barnes
Huerter
Holmes
Okpala
Lyles
Len
Metu

And only 6 guys at 6'6" and under, with only 3-4 definitely getting minutes
Fox
Mitchell
Monk
Davis
Third string PG (Delly/Cook)
Last Man Standing (Bazemore/Moneke/Merrill)

We're not a HUGE team, but it's nice to not be so stinkin' small anymore.

I think this should go a long way toward us not being such a sieve on defense. Length bothers people. As long as the players move their feet on defense like they did against the Lakers (for 45 out of 48 minutes) we should be able to eke out a .500 season.

I love that Brown has put his stamp as a defensive coach on the team. Obviously the offense was not as much of a concern of his teaching in training camp, as with our history it shouldn't be.

Defense leads to offense. Make stops and then get out and run. Half court sets can be learned once the defense is understood.

After that timeout when the team was discombobulated, Brown obviously got his message across. The offense still looked like a hot mess but the defense tightened up. THAT is what you want to see.

Maybe we have some PTSD as fans from the Walton Era where he would have waited until they were down 13 before calling a timeout and doing absolutely nothing with it but it was refreshing to see Brown lay into them and tell them they weren't doing what he taught them and holding them accountable.

I also do not have an opinion on Keegan not starting. He will start eventually. It's probably not best to have your prized rookie start his first ever game against LeBron/AD until you know he can mentally handle the challenge. I can imagine being a rookie SG and my first ever assignment is to start opposite Kobe, no thanks. Let somebody else wear him down first. Smart call on Browns part.

 

[regularkingsfan]

"Murray doesn't need plays called for him to be effective and should be able to play as a stretch-4 alongside Domantas Sabonis, as well as smaller lineups as a small-ball center with Harrison Barnes," Givony wrote.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1540130824741191680

Convos on here was whether he could. I was skeptical. If he can, he has premium value--kinda like Horford. So far, small ball center projections from Givony, O'Connor and others seems wayyy offf.

It's not way off. You misinterpret the "small ball center.". Horford is not a small ball center. He is a stretch 5. A small ball center is someone like PJ Tucker or Maxi Kleber.

 

[kb02]

What is your point? That his Dad's garbage is going to make them money?

Sorry bud, I'm a Kings fan. I care about the Kings Ws and Ls.

I'm well entitled to take potshots at former players (and their families) who take/took potshots at Sacramento/the Kings.

You defending and/or validating and/or justifying those people makes you a target, just like them. Don't be a target.

Your valor is commendable.

 

[kb02]

It's not way off. You misinterpret the "small ball center.". Horford is not a small ball center. He is a stretch 5. A small ball center is someone like PJ Tucker or Maxi Kleber.

Nah, you misinterpret my point. Horford has premium value, because he can defend at the 5 spot.

 

[kb02]

Murray's value is as a versatile 4/3 forward. No reason to have your star forward play any center. Givony was way off on that assesment.

I don't see a star as 4/3. As a 4, who can play the 5, like a young Horford? Yes. And no, I didn't believe their assessment either.

 

[regularkingsfan]

Nah, you misinterpret my point. Horford has premium value, because he can defend at the 5 spot.

Lol of course he can. He is a center.

A small ball center is a forward basically in a 5-out offense. Like Kleber in Dallas' 5 out offense. Or Batum in Clippers' 5-out offense. Now you know what Givony was talking about.

 

[regularkingsfan]

Nah, you misinterpret my point. Horford has premium value, because he can defend at the 5 spot.

Actually the better example is Grant Williams who subs for Horford.

 

[kb02]

Actually the better example is Grant Williams who subs for Horford.

Yea, do u see Murray as someone, who can defend the 5 in any lineup? I don’t. His play as a 4/3 version of Barnes isn’t surprising. At draft time, Givony and others started saying he could play as a 4/5 as well. If he can, his value pops. If he can’t, the ceiling is capped.

 

[gunks]

Yea, do u see Murray as someone, who can defend the 5 in any lineup? I don’t. His play as a 4/3 version of Barnes isn’t surprising. At draft time, Givony and others started saying he could play as a 4/5 as well. If he can, his value pops. If he can’t, the ceiling is capped.

Oh noooooo the big wing we drafted with an elite 3 pointer, scoring efficiency and feel for the game can't play the 5, whatever are we to do?!

Monte better get on the phone with Stevens ASAP and ask him how he's been coping with Brown and Tatum's inability to play the 5 as well.

 

[regularkingsfan]

Yea, do u see Murray as someone, who can defend the 5 in any lineup? I don’t. His play as a 4/3 version of Barnes isn’t surprising. At draft time, Givony and others started saying he could play as a 4/5 as well. If he can, his value pops. If he can’t, the ceiling is capped.

Small ball center is a niche for career role players., who (like you said) want to increase their value. Murray is a role player this year but he might be more in the future. I mean if he becomes a 3-level scorer (who also has good defensive instinct), his value would pop much more.

 

[kb02]

Oh noooooo the big wing we drafted with an elite 3 pointer, scoring efficiency and feel for the game can't play the 5, whatever are we to do?!

Monte better get on the phone with Stevens ASAP and ask him how he's been coping with Brown and Tatum's inability to play the 5 as well.

You just compared Murray to Tatum and Brown. Surreeee.

 

[kb02]

Small ball center is a niche for career role players., who (like you said) want to increase their value. Murray is a role player this year but he might be more in the future. I mean if he becomes a 3-level scorer (who also has good defensive instinct), his value would pop much more.

We have different opinions of his upside. I don't see an elite player, if he's a 4/3. Kinda like how Posey was an elite player, because he provided offense at the catcher spot. As a corner infielder, not so much.

 

[Kingster]

Who had an odd idea for him to play 5? He's a lot more likely to play 3

If other teams play small ball, I could see him playing the five for stretches. Say, for example, he faces a five about the same size as Holmes, why not play him at the five? You could have all five players on the court with 3-point ability. He's shown an ability to pass that is probably better than Holmes, he's a far superior outside shooter to Holmes, probably as good of a rebounder. The only aspects of his game not better than Holmes right now are "probably" peripheral and weakside defense and finishing (lobs) at the rim. Really my only concern about playing him in a small-ball five position is spreading him too thin at this early stage of his career and confusing him with too many roles and responsibilities.

P.S. A matchup that I would be very interested in seeing would be to match Murray up against Draymond Green when the Warriors play Green at the five.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

If other teams play small ball, I could see him playing the five for stretches. Say, for example, he faces a five about the same size as Holmes, why not play him at the five? You could have all five players on the court with 3-point ability. He's shown an ability to pass that is probably better than Holmes, he's a far superior outside shooter to Holmes, probably as good of a rebounder. The only aspects of his game not better than Holmes right now are "probably" peripheral and weakside defense and finishing (lobs) at the rim. Really my only concern about playing him in a small-ball five position is spreading him too thin at this early stage of his career and confusing him with too many roles and responsibilities.

P.S. A matchup that I would be very interested in seeing would be to match Murray up against Draymond Green when the Warriors play Green at the five.

Sure, if a team doesn't play a 5, then why not. They do this in college all the time, just forwards and guards. Green is a 4, so matching up a player that is primarily a 4 against him makes sense. There are plenty of times when there are no 5's at all on the floor, when playing with 3 guards and 2 forwards or vice versa.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yea, do u see Murray as someone, who can defend the 5 in any lineup? I don’t. His play as a 4/3 version of Barnes isn’t surprising. At draft time, Givony and others started saying he could play as a 4/5 as well. If he can, his value pops. If he can’t, the ceiling is capped.

I don't know about Murray at 5 but it could work. Number 1, who can guard him as a stretch shooter on the other end? We literally saw PG13 as a corner 3 spread center take out the DPOY of the year Gobert and the Jazz a few seasons ago. I don't see too many bigs dominating down low. If this were the 90's/2000's Murrays a 3 for sure but this is a different era.

 

[kb02]

I don't know about Murray at 5 but it could work. Number 1, who can guard him as a stretch shooter on the other end? We literally saw PG13 as a corner 3 spread center take out the DPOY of the year Gobert and the Jazz a few seasons ago. I don't see too many bigs dominating down low. If this were the 90's/2000's Murrays a 3 for sure but this is a different era.

He creates a matchup issue on the other end for sure at the 5. I just don’t see him having the same impact there like other dudes around the same size, who do operate well there—Draymond, Horford…

 

[sactowndog]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1577752692188884992

I heard that comment and the press is taking it out of context.

What I heard Brown say was in his offensive system the 2,3,4 are virtually the same and Keegan could play any of them.

The question was which positions could he defend and the team is still evaluating that question.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1578419140573790210

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1578530291072704512

the most encouraging thing from this compilation is that you can see him actively improving with every single play. Starts out refusing to pass out of drives and is looking for lobs by possession 4 or 5.

 

[TaxMan]

He creates a matchup issue on the other end for sure at the 5. I just don’t see him having the same impact there like other dudes around the same size, who do operate well there—Draymond, Horford…

So are you just saying you don’t see Murray as a potential hall of fame player? I’m not sure I understand the obsession with the comparison you’re making.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1578721311127314432

 

[SacTownKid]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1578530291072704512

the most encouraging thing from this compilation is that you can see him actively improving with every single play. Starts out refusing to pass out of drives and is looking for lobs by possession 4 or 5.

When teams switch or hedge consistently we then see what's what. That's probably the point we hopefully see some post play out of him.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Your valor is commendable.

Your comebacks aren't.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Nah, you misinterpret my point. Horford has premium value, because he can defend at the 5 spot.

WRONG. Al Horford can defend at the 5 because he has the mentality to do it. He isn't any bigger than Anthony Davis however Davis is a prima Donna and does not want to do it. It's a mentality, not so much a physicality, for players in that range. Murray and Horford is actually a damn good matchup because they both play similar and have similar mentalities, Murray just has more range.

My point is, Davis CAN defend the 5. He's just soft. Horford is smaller but he ain't soft. And neither is Murray.

Don't paint him into a corner because of your world view. We don't know what Murray can become, but the early results are he can become really damn good, and a lot better than what YOU thought.

Edit: I'm not saying you can put Murray in against Valancuinas or Drummond or traditional centers like that. But in certain situations yeah, you could match Murray up with Draymond, Jaren Jackson, Siakam, Horford, Bagley etc.

 

[Turgenev]

Does this discussion about Keegan's inability to play the five exist only to allow people to be unhappy with him? Or is there some kind of basketball substance that we should all care about?

 

[iowamcnabb]

He is a bit more crafty than he showed at Iowa. Really uses screens well. He said in one of his interviews that he only does things he is really good at. Love that too

 

[kb02]

WRONG. Al Horford can defend at the 5 because he has the mentality to do it. He isn't any bigger than Anthony Davis however Davis is a prima Donna and does not want to do it. It's a mentality, not so much a physicality, for players in that range. Murray and Horford is actually a damn good matchup because they both play similar and have similar mentalities, Murray just has more range.

My point is, Davis CAN defend the 5. He's just soft. Horford is smaller but he ain't soft. And neither is Murray.

Don't paint him into a corner because of your world view. We don't know what Murray can become, but the early results are he can become really damn good, and a lot better than what YOU thought.

Edit: I'm not saying you can put Murray in against Valancuinas or Drummond or traditional centers like that. But in certain situations yeah, you could match Murray up with Draymond, Jaren Jackson, Siakam, Horford, Bagley etc.

Well, having watched the Kings give up 115 points every night since the Fox era, you certainly know soft when you see it.

Mentality is a skill. Yes, I agree. Toughness is an attribute, yes, I agree. Brown seems to be trying to instill that. That's good. This Kings, until proven otherwise, is not a tough team--physically or mentally.

Can you please find a quote from me saying anything other than Murray is a 4/3 version of Barnes, an elite shot, and a limited ability to face up, drive and score/create? He looks exactly like that.

Surprised you're disparaging Davis, when your whole spiel is Kingsfans shouldn't be Kingsfans, if they can't take anything more than a glass half full perspective. Oh, wait, never mind. You disparaged Bagley as well. Guess the colored glasses disappear the second they're off the Kings. Past results are not a guarantee for future performance, but it's impressive that after 16 years of being a featured team on the NBA's annual lottery show, your view is still full of half colored goodness. The rest of the league certainly don't see the Kings in a half colored way:

https://twitter.com/statuses/1578029815340290050

 

[Tetsujin]

He is a bit more crafty than he showed at Iowa. Really uses screens well. He said in one of his interviews that he only does things he is really good at. Love that too

yeah but if he isn't Al Horford (for some unknown reason that's the guy getting fixated on), we don't want him!