Keegan Murray

[KainLear]

I haven’t been around long but I don’t think he comes close to being the boards most negative poster. @SLAB While expressing disappointment in Murray initially he’s remained atleast somewhat open to being proven wrong by Keegan. The last couple games he’s been coming around even more so. People will always have “their” guys and that’s 100% fine.

Thank you.

I’m honestly pretty pissed about this narrative that I’m rooting for Murray to fail or whatever. Yeah, I really wanted Ivey. Yeah, Ivey impressed me more in game 1-to-1 comparison before his injury. No, this isn’t and has never been a Marvin Bagley situation where I hated the guy from the second his name was called.

Haha I agree with @Kings49ers here, I've mostly just tried to participate in a logical debate as positive as I could, my true feeling I found time and time again that I agree or at least lean closer to SLAB's take. It is always helpful to have an ounce of pessimism going into anything.

Just as long as you don't get tunnel vision with your take and shut your eyes from even looking at others' opinions, we know there are a few of us here who are like that but SLAB is certainly not one.

 

[gunks]

Kb02 is a necessary part of the board ecosystem: The Heel.

Obviously not up to the lofty standards of pedantic villainy set by Blob a few seasons back, but like Keegan, maybe they just need a few more TDOSs to develop and fill out their skill set.

 

[Spike]

Kb02 is a necessary part of the board ecosystem: The Heel.

Obviously not up to the lofty standards of pedantic villainy set by Blob a few seasons back, but like Keegan, maybe they just need a few more TDOSs to develop and fill out their skill set.

An even greater pedant lies among us...

 

[macadocious]

We don’t want an echo chamber, it’s not a good idea.

The fact we care what someone thinks has never made any sense to me.

 

[kb02]

Kb02 is a necessary part of the board ecosystem: The Heel.

Obviously not up to the lofty standards of pedantic villainy set by Blob a few seasons back, but like Keegan, maybe they just need a few more TDOSs to develop and fill out their skill set.

 

[Rob-The-Great]

this board is best enjoyed with a heavy dose of the ignore feature. If De'Aaron could walk on water, cure aids and cancer, end poverty, world hunger and war, a select few here would still be tunnelvision focused with complaints (and "advanced stats" to match) about his defense.

0. Lonely
1. Join Forum
2. Have a Forum Discussion
3. Ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you.
4. Lonely again.

Sound about right? Lol

 

[Rob-The-Great]

I'd be delighted to do a friendly wager on his minutes. I will be shocked - SHOCKED, I tell you, and absolutely appalled - if Keegan Murray gets only 20-22 min. I think 30 is much more likely out the gate.

I hope your right, history isn't on our side tho. I'll take that bet

 

[Woot!]

I hope your right, history isn't on our side tho. I'll take that bet

Yeahbit, yeahbit - new coaching staff making those decisions and a better, more ready player whose strengths (shooting, rebounding, some rim protection) dovetail w/the team's biggest needs.

We'll see!

 

[KainLear]

0. Lonely
1. Join Forum
2. Have a Forum Discussion
3. Ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you.
4. Lonely again.

Sound about right? Lol

I agree. Truly sometimes I might go out of my way to tease some of you but this is why I try not to ignore everyone who disagrees with me so I don't create my own echo chamber.

In honor of KF21, I'm going to try my very best to participate in spirited conversation as much as I can, positively as I can be.

 

[CoatCheckDream]

I live in Waterloo haha. Small world

Right on. I'm in Des Moines now but I grew up there. Grandparents lived by Rath packing plant for decades.

 

[Jc121]

I think I know one thing that our new coach will put the best players on the floor. For Murray it could be off the bench with good minutes to let him get used to the nba.
or start him either way I feel confident the right decisions will be made compared to Walton.

 

[Turgenev]

I haven't clicked ignore on anyone but if I did it would not be because their opinion differed from mine. It would more likely come down to an insufferable communication style. If someone here is like "they don't like what I'm saying" they're probably giving themselves too much credit.

 

[Sluggah]

No one is creating an echo chamber on KF.com.
No one is ignoring ‘everyone who doesn't agree’ with them.

If you’re getting ignored you’re either a troll, incapable of arguing in good faith, incapable of making a cogent argument, or some combination of the three. And even that is unlikely enough…you’d have to be doing it incessantly.

If Ozy were to show his ‘heavy dose of the ignore feature’ I’d bet it represents less than 1% of the board by a large margin.

Don’t fall into these traps.

 

[SacTownKid]

The problem is not that you, and others, are being "reserved". It's that you're more excited about other rookies, your personal picks, because you are invested in that and one thing about KB02 specifically is he hates to be wrong. And at the same time, downplaying all the positives of Murray's game and highlighting the negatives.

It's irritating because the narrative is old as dirt yet some won't let it go. If the grass is so much greener over there, why continue torturing yourselves over here?

On the other hand, sometimes people confuse reason with negativity. If you only highlight one area of analysis there is literally no balance to any conversation. Expecting nothing but positivity in all aspects of any players game will only beget disappointment.

You can't lump everyone in to any category in terms of responses either. Personally, I said I was fine with about 5 different choices and selecting Ivey for me would have been done largely on the basis of a backup plan and or potentially putting together a package for a potential star via trade down the line. Monte has literally gone about all in as he can so Murray is certainly a better fit for that type of situation. Now to see if winning follows, because if it doesn't, it's going to be a rough road back out potentially. Personally, I do believe Fox is worth building around and thought that from day 1, so no complaints on my end.

 

[PorchSurfin]

On the other hand, sometimes people confuse reason with negativity. If you only highlight one area of analysis there is literally no balance to any conversation. Expecting nothing but positivity in all aspects of any players game will only beget disappointment.

You can't lump everyone in to any category in terms of responses either. Personally, I said I was fine with about 5 different choices and selecting Ivey for me would have been done largely on the basis of a backup plan and or potentially putting together a package for a potential star via trade down the line. Monte has literally gone about all in as he can so Murray is certainly a better fit for that type of situation. Now to see if winning follows, because if it doesn't, it's going to be a rough road back out potentially. Personally, I do believe Fox is worth building around and thought that from day 1, so no complaints on my end.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think the problem lies in agenda pushing, the pursuit of always being right instead of being open.

As fans, there will always be disagreements and dissenting viewpoints. That is the nature of Fandom in a nutshell. The condescending attitude is probably the biggest trigger though. However, I think we all want the same thing. I can't imagine the Kings winning a championship and everyone not being completely satisfied at the end result, but I do think some will still find something to gripe about.

I'm a bottom line person, and the bottom line is this pick of Murray most definitely will make the KINGS a better team in the immediate and hopefully in the future. I just find it sort of petty to continue to push the narrative that they should have did more, or taken a different player, instead of just rooting for the player they have especially since he is looking really damn good so far. That is probably my biggest takeaway from all of this banter about Murray. Some people will never be happy no matter what, and they just can't wait to say "See!!! I told you so!"

 

[SacTownKid]

I wholeheartedly agree. I think the problem lies in agenda pushing, the pursuit of always being right instead of being open.

As fans, there will always be disagreements and dissenting viewpoints. That is the nature of Fandom in a nutshell. The condescending attitude is probably the biggest trigger though. However, I think we all want the same thing. I can't imagine the Kings winning a championship and everyone not being completely satisfied at the end result, but I do think some will still find something to gripe about.

I'm a bottom line person, and the bottom line is this pick of Murray most definitely will make the KINGS a better team in the immediate and hopefully in the future. I just find it sort of petty to continue to push the narrative that they should have did more, or taken a different player, instead of just rooting for the player they have especially since he is looking really damn good so far. That is probably my biggest takeaway from all of this banter about Murray. Some people will never be happy no matter what, and they just can't wait to say "See!!! I told you so!"

True, and in @kb02's defense, it's pretty obvious he values team oriented playmaking quite highly even above productivity or the ability to destroy teams in iso. I personally don't really have any viewpoints on my "favorite" type of player except in relation to what works at any given time in the NBA. 15 years ago, I thought it was ridiculous how the Kings strayed from shotblocking since it was pretty impactful. The name of Justin Williams was thrown around this board quite often, lol. Now? Nope, not even on the radar since the game is called differently. It's not nearly as important.

My thing is all people have to do is look around the top rung of NBA talent to decipher what's what. If 90% of stars are pretty much doing a, b, and c, then your go to players better have those exact qualities as well or close to it. If they don't another Peja situation will happen. Peja was really good at what he did, but his lack of playmaking or the ability to run an offense showed you what happens when you try and build around a player like that. Without Vlade and DC, his game was forever altered since they were usually the ones creating his opportunities. The team clearly needed someone at the front of their offense with guard skills that could to all things out of the triple threat whereas Peja was more of a set/system player. This is why Ron Artest immediately improved the team even though he NEVER had a full season of ball like the one Peja played a few years prior. This is the same thing that happened to Harrison Barnes in Dallas. As soon as they realized he wasn't the head of an offense but a really good system piece Vlade nabbed him for basically free. Murray with Fox is a great fit. Murray with the team Monte built looks like a perfect fit as well. Now to see if it pays off and if it does, yeah, it will ease everyones pain that didn't get their wishes on draft night, haha. The only complaint I have about Montes draft is that he pretty much telegraphed his move. Maybe it wouldn't have worked but it would have been even nicer if the Kings could maybe have gotten a little bit out of Detroit AND get Murray but Monte didn't want to chance it so I understand.

 

[PorchSurfin]

True, and in @kb02's defense, it's pretty obvious he values team oriented playmaking quite highly even above productivity or the ability to destroy teams in iso. I personally don't really have any viewpoints on my "favorite" type of player except in relation to what works at any given time in the NBA. 15 years ago, I thought it was ridiculous how the Kings strayed from shotblocking since it was pretty impactful. The name of Justin Williams was thrown around this board quite often, lol. Now? Nope, not even on the radar since the game is called differently. It's not nearly as important.

My thing is all people have to do is look around the top rung of NBA talent to decipher what's what. If 90% of stars are pretty much doing a, b, and c, then your go to players better have those exact qualities as well or close to it. If they don't another Peja situation will happen. Peja was really good at what he did, but his lack of playmaking or the ability to run an offense showed you what happens when you try and build around a player like that. Without Vlade and DC, his game was forever altered since they were usually the ones creating his opportunities. The team clearly needed someone at the front of their offense with guard skills that could to all things out of the triple threat whereas Peja was more of a set/system player. This is why Ron Artest immediately improved the team even though he NEVER had a full season of ball like the one Peja played a few years prior. This is the same thing that happened to Harrison Barnes in Dallas. As soon as they realized he wasn't the head of an offense but a really good system piece Vlade nabbed him for basically free. Murray with Fox is a great fit. Murray with the team Monte built looks like a perfect fit as well. Now to see if it pays off and if it does, yeah, it will ease everyones pain that didn't get their wishes on draft night, haha. The only complaint I have about Montes draft is that he pretty much telegraphed his move. Maybe it wouldn't have worked but it would have been even nicer if the Kings could maybe have gotten a little bit out of Detroit AND get Murray but Monte didn't want to chance it so I understand.

Beautiful post. And Peja might actually be a decent comp for Murray. Never thought of that one before.

But you are right, he did need others to create for him, like Murray will, at least to begin his career.

The Murray pick was super boring. It's what the Kings should have done. Nothing flashy, no trades, no surprise picks. Monte went full missionary. And I guess that just wasn't enough for some.

October can't get here soon enough!

 

[PorchSurfin]

How mad is Houston fan right now they got Smith as the consolation prize?

Glad we aren't in that boat, been there before (TRob, Snagley).

Looking on an even brighter side, we don't have to worry about K33gan trying to start a rap career!

 

[ESP47]

I don't think people remember Slab getting a ton of grief a few years back but he definitely did until he started injecting more humor into his pessimism.

 

[SLAB]

I don't think people remember Slab getting a ton of grief a few years back but he definitely did until he started injecting more humor into his pessimism.

I barely even remember the back then times. To be a fan of this team you have to smile through the pain which I learned … at some point!

 

[cwebb2002]

All I will say is i was one of the first peeps i saw on this board repping this dude hard. Additionally, i have no issues with kings fans taking a wait and see stand. We won summer league last year, had the Co-MVP and got our asses whipped in the regular season, and as good as Davion was, he wasnt even in the discussion for top 5 rookies last year (possibly the Sacramento effect) so i get the trepidation people have. However, this is the first year this team makes a lick of sense on paper. I still see 8 teams in the west definitely better than us and 2-3 teams as good or possibly better, but that is the nature of the beast. If everything clicks and we are minimized from the injury bug we may have a shot at the play in, (7-10, probably more towards the 9-10) but i think we will be more competitive this year than possibly any other year. And Keegan will be a big reason. He should finish as a top 3-4 rookie in my mind and i thino he has a far greater ceiling than people give credit for)

I would however like to take shots at national media members who shat on the the pick and said Kings out thought themselves (exact words used by many), and put their words to Keegan SL highlights and hammer their twitter feeds with it.

 

[kb02]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

 

[gilly420]

Great stuff from KM so far. Potential opening night starter. Loved seeing him comfortable shooting the 3, and making smart plays. With Monk and Huerter on board, looks like we got the right guy. Still would like to see us make another trade, HB seemingly being the guy with value that we could use to upgrade SF.

 

[PorchSurfin]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

I dont think betting odds are "cold hard facts" but to each their own.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Great stuff from KM so far. Potential opening night starter. Loved seeing him comfortable shooting the 3, and making smart plays. With Monk and Huerter on board, looks like we got the right guy. Still would like to see us make another trade, HB seemingly being the guy with value that we could use to upgrade SF.

Was nice seeing Murray step out even further and using his dribble to step into long threes, as well as using his body and dribble to hit a tough turn around 3 at the buzzer. You can either do those things or you can't. They were impressive to say the least, and he did them as if he was a veteran which was even more impressive.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

I currently have his odds at 2nd, behind only Banchero. Murray will have a better season than Smith and Holmgren and I wouldn't be surprised if he has a more efficient season than Banchero

 

[gunks]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

 

[The_Jamal]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

Kings are tied for the 2nd worst odds to win a title on DraftKings with the Spurs/OKC and ahead of the Magic/Rockets. Teams like the Pistons, Pacers, Hornets, Wizards, UTA, POR, NYK are all ahead of them.

Long-shots aren't my kind of bet, but I think the Kings by far are the best of that back-end bunch. There's none chance NYK should be +7000 or POR +7500 while the Kings are +80000. Are the Pacers 4x more likely to win a title than the Kings next season at +20000?

But yeah, you're better off buying a scratcher. Basically would take a truly insane run of injuries to that top guys for any of these back 10-13 teams to have any sort of chance.

 

[New Era]

I enjoy cold hard facts. Murray went from +1100 to +800 in betting payouts, which translates to an increase from 8.33% odds to 11.11% odds of winning the ROTY. His SL play moved the needle 2.78%. Solid, upward trend, but not exactly earth shattering. We’ll find out soon enough.

The Kings have around a +42k odds of winning the championship, which translates to you’re better off playing powerball.

Great attempt here but correlating how the betting odds adjusted with that exact same "needle" being moved isn't apples to apples. If you're telling me KM's stock went up only by 2.78% from where it was before summer league then you're not watching the games. I think his performance was WAY better than most of us felt and how the league felt overall.

Betting odds don't always correlate with reality. First, it's based on the amount of money that is being wagered on each bet. Obviously, some smart money came in on KM which lowered the payout a bit. But do you really think the average person, outside of us crazies here in this forum, are paying attention to KM and the Kings summer league? A rookie playing for Sac greatly reduces the odds and also I think there is a TON of money coming in on Banchero and he is easily the favorite at this point. That can make some of the other long shots more of a positive expected value on that bet even though the odds are highly against him winning.

Also, +42k odds of winning the championship is nothing like playing Powerball. That $42k payout is based on a $100 bet so essentially the odds are 1 in 420. Odds of winning Powerball is 1 in roughly 290 MILLION.

 

[Turgenev]

What is the crux of this conversation though? It isn't about Sacramento's championship odds. It's about Keegan Murray, his performance during summer league, and his ability to contribute next year.

The genuinely objective (cold hard) facts are pretty simple. e.g., Murray scored >20ppg in SL. He scored a variety of ways. He did some other things. Some people who wanted Ivey are good for now.

There are more subjective themes like: how will Murray fit with Sabonis and Fox? Will Murray be a guy the fans want to support? Does 'star' actually mean anything or is it just some dumb media construct that favours personality, style, and usage?

I think he's a good get. I don't like the assumed truth that he was picked ahead of the more talented Ivey for fit. I think it may have been his abilities as much as his play style and position that the front office liked. Think there is a bit of apples vs oranges that even good analysts seem to struggle with.