kb02 can't stop making everything about Fox (split from the Mike Brown thread)

kb02

kb02

All-Star
#1
#1
Tetsujin said:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1523482633254031361
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Pretty funny when considering that West and Williams have better advanced stats than Fox and Ilgauskas and Domas are essentially a push:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...=willima01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...2=westde01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...lgauzy01&player_id1=sabondo01&sum=0&request=1

Edit: Domas vs Varejao ain't that far off either. https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...abondo01&player_id1=varejan01&sum=0&request=1

Edit #2: Either yhall overrating the Kings current talent or underrating the team around Lebron.
 
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Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#2
#2
kb02 said:
Pretty funny when considering that West and Williams have better advanced stats than Fox and Ilgauskas and Domas are essentially a push:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...=willima01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...2=westde01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...lgauzy01&player_id1=sabondo01&sum=0&request=1

Edit: Domas vs Varejao ain't that far off either. https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...abondo01&player_id1=varejan01&sum=0&request=1

Edit #2: Either yhall overrating the Kings current talent or underrating the team around Lebron.
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Or LeBron played in the early 2000s eastern conference as one of, if not the best player ever at his position. He had nice role players around him, and they overachieved.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#3
#3
Chupacabra said:
Or LeBron played in the early 2000s eastern conference as one of, if not the best player ever at his position. He had nice role players around him, and they overachieved.
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Lebron was great. Undeniable. But those numbers are for their career, so it captures their early and late years where their numbers were likely worse than their prime. And people forget Mo Williams, in his prime, would have as much if not more value than Fox. West would likely be around where Buddy, Monk, Graham is today--maybe a tick better. Varejao was a bouncy, rebounding big, who would likely get a first. And Ilgaskaus was vastly underrated--not all star level, but better than average. Years later, those players are laughed at, but objectively, they're probably close to if not better than the Kings current core, including its "two" stars.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#4
#4
kb02 said:
Lebron was great. Undeniable. But those numbers are for their career, so it captures their early and late years where their numbers were likely worse than their prime. And people forget Mo Williams, in his prime, would have as much if not more value than Fox. West would likely be around where Buddy, Monk, Graham is today--maybe a tick better. Varejao was a bouncy, rebounding big, who would likely get a first. And Ilgaskaus was vastly underrated--not all star level, but better than average. Years later, those players are laughed at, but objectively, they're probably close to if not better than the Kings current core, including its "two" stars.
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When you hate De'Aaron Fox so much that you have to tell lies about Mo Williams. #TheList
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#6
#6
kb02 said:
Mo Williams made an all star team. How many has Fox made?
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Mo Williams made an All-Star team averaging 17 points and 4 assists a game. It also took him until his sixth season, and playing with LeBron, and being an injury replacement (second alternate). Color me unimpressed. If Jameer Nelson doesn't tear his labrum, Mo Williams is a no-time All-Star.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#7
#7
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Mo Williams made an All-Star team averaging 17 points and 4 assists a game. It also took him until his sixth season, and playing with LeBron, and being an injury replacement (second alternate). Color me unimpressed. If Jameer Nelson doesn't tear his labrum, Mo Williams is a no-time All-Star.
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At the age of 26, in his prime. Again, how many has Fox made?

Then go look at their advanced stats.

Color me unimpressed with your reaction that Williams, in his prime, had as much if not more value than Fox. He did. Yhall just think he sucks, because he wasn't an elite player during his era. Well, guess who else is a non-elite player in his era?
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#8
#8
kb02 said:
Pretty funny when considering that West and Williams have better advanced stats than Fox and Ilgauskas and Domas are essentially a push:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...=willima01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...2=westde01&player_id1=foxde01&sum=0&request=1

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...lgauzy01&player_id1=sabondo01&sum=0&request=1

Edit: Domas vs Varejao ain't that far off either. https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...abondo01&player_id1=varejan01&sum=0&request=1

Edit #2: Either yhall overrating the Kings current talent or underrating the team around Lebron.
Click to expand...

Or:
1. Coaching does matter, and you should expect to see an improvement across the board with our current roster.
2. Everyone's advanced stats will look better playing with a prime Lebron.
3. I'm really getting annoyed with you derailing every conversation to make it about Fox. We get it. You don't like him. Maybe make your own thread about why you think the Kings would be better without him, and leave it all in there. This is a thread about Coach Brown.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#9
#9
kb02 said:
Then go look at their advanced stats.
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You mean the advanced stats that say that Fox has a higher PER and a higher TS%, despite having a higher usage rate? Or the advanced stats that say that Fox has a higher eFG% and a higher offensive rating? How about the advanced stats that say that Fox had a lower percentage of turnovers per 100 plays, despite handling the ball way more?

Williams spent two-thirds of his career playing for winning teams, yet his career win shares/48 is only .007 higher than Fox, who has never played on a winning team. That doesn't sound like somebody who added a lot of value.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#10
#10
Spike said:
Or:
1. Coaching does matter, and you should expect to see an improvement across the board with our current roster.
2. Everyone's advanced stats will look better playing with a prime Lebron.
3. I'm really getting annoyed with you derailing every conversation to make it about Fox. We get it. You don't like him. Maybe make your own thread about why you think the Kings would be better without him, and leave it all in there. This is a thread about Coach Brown.
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Who's focusing in on Fox when this particular subsection of the thread is discussing whether Brown should get any credit for the players that surrounded Lebron during that 66 win season. The data says they were pretty good and on par if not better than this current Kings core.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#11
#11
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
You mean the advanced stats that say that Fox has a higher PER and a higher TS%, despite having a higher usage rate? Or the advanced stats that say that Fox has a higher eFG% and a higher offensive rating? How about the advanced stats that say that Fox had a lower percentage of turnovers per 100 plays, despite handling the ball way more?

Williams spent two-thirds of his career playing for winning teams, yet his career win shares/48 is only .007 higher than Fox, who has never played on a winning team. That doesn't sound like somebody who added a lot of value.
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The advanced stats that tend to matter are VORP and Win-Shares. They're pretty conclusive, no? But go ahead and think Williams was a scrub. Scrubs get voted into the all star team all the time, right?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#12
#12
Spike said:
Or:
1. Coaching does matter, and you should expect to see an improvement across the board with our current roster.
2. Everyone's advanced stats will look better playing with a prime Lebron.
3. I'm really getting annoyed with you derailing every conversation to make it about Fox. We get it. You don't like him. Maybe make your own thread about why you think the Kings would be better without him, and leave it all in there. This is a thread about Coach Brown.
Click to expand...
We really shouldn't be indulging this behavior, but...
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#13
#13
kb02 said:
The advanced stats that tend to matter are VORP and Win-Shares. They're pretty conclusive, no?
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So, the only advanced stats that "tend to matter" just happen to be the two that favor Williams over Fox? Well, that's convenient.

But go ahead and think Williams was a scrub. Scrubs get voted into the all star team all the time, right?
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Mo Willams was never voted to an All-Star team.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#14
#14
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
So, the only advanced stats that "tend to matter" just happen to be the two that favor Williams over Fox? Well, that's convenient.
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So far, Mo Williams and Fox have only overlapped for four age-matched seasons - ages 21-24. Whatever you do, don't go comparing the advanced stats for ages 21-24 for Fox and Williams, particularly the mattering stats of WS and VORP. Don't do it! Don't look!
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#16
#16
Capt. Factorial said:
So far, Mo Williams and Fox have only overlapped for four age-matched seasons - ages 21-24. Whatever you do, don't go comparing the advanced stats for ages 21-24 for Fox and Williams, particularly the mattering stats of WS and VORP. Don't do it! Don't look!
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Williams made the all star team in year 6. Fox is entering year 6. We'll see.

Regardless, kinda funny that I'm saying Williams has as much or more value than Fox and yhall tripping out that I'm saying Fox has as much value as a sometimes all star. Is that not a compliment?
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#17
#17
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Mo Williams made an All-Star team averaging 17 points and 4 assists a game. It also took him until his sixth season, and playing with LeBron, and being an injury replacement (second alternate). Color me unimpressed. If Jameer Nelson doesn't tear his labrum, Mo Williams is a no-time All-Star.
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I seem to recall reading an article on Brown about this point. Noting that Brown lobbied the league hard to get Williams onto the team and it was the only All-Star LeBron had in Cleveland. Somehow all the "East is Crap" points that negate Brown's body of work in Cleveland don't apply to LeBron's subpar teammate's failure to make ASG appearances.

I also seem to recall guys like Verejao (who is not Sabonis's equal) looking pretty good in Brown's system and posters here thinking we should move for him.

The biggest knock on Fox seems to be that he became invisible when Haliburton showed up and he hasn't really made much effort on the defensive end since Joerger left. Brown ought to be able to fix the second thing and ... well, I doubt we're going to add a PG this offseason. Let's see what Brown can do. LeBron credits him with getting him to focus on defense, and I would think if he can get through a hard headed player like LeBron as a rookie head coach, he can get through to Fox.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#18
#18
pdxKingsFan said:
I seem to recall reading an article on Brown about this point. Noting that Brown lobbied the league hard to get Williams onto the team and it was the only All-Star LeBron had in Cleveland. Somehow all the "East is Crap" points that negate Brown's body of work in Cleveland don't apply to LeBron's subpar teammate's failure to make ASG appearances.

I also seem to recall guys like Verejao (who is not Sabonis's equal) looking pretty good in Brown's system and posters here thinking we should move for him.

The biggest knock on Fox seems to be that he became invisible when Haliburton showed up and he hasn't really made much effort on the defensive end since Joerger left. Brown ought to be able to fix the second thing and ... well, I doubt we're going to add a PG this offseason. Let's see what Brown can do. LeBron credits him with getting him to focus on defense, and I would think if he can get through a hard headed player like LeBron as a rookie head coach, he can get through to Fox.
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You're tempting fate, my friend.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#22
#22
Livinthedream said:
You're tempting fate, my friend.
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SLAB said:
I can’t wait until the BPA is another PG then we trade Davion for another former All-Star!
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Don't get me wrong because we desperately need the perfect 4 (or big 3) to complete a starting lineup and I don't see that guy there, but there are a lot of guys that fit the 2/3 swing spots and unless Murray falls to us I see us drafting one of them and we'll have a logjam of sorts developing in that part of the court.

But who are the PGs expected to go in the top 8? Even if we get into the top 4 I don't think we'd pick Ivey though I could see us trading down a spot or two in an Ivey for Murray swap if we move up and one of the bigs isn't there.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#23
#23
pdxKingsFan said:
Don't get me wrong because we desperately need the perfect 4 (or big 3) to complete a starting lineup and I don't see that guy there, but there are a lot of guys that fit the 2/3 swing spots and unless Murray falls to us I see us drafting one of them and we'll have a logjam of sorts developing in that part of the court.

But who are the PGs expected to go in the top 8? Even if we get into the top 4 I don't think we'd pick Ivey though I could see us trading down a spot or two in an Ivey for Murray swap if we move up and one of the bigs isn't there.
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Right, the only other PG slotted to go in the top ten was TyTy Washington and he’s been plummettting down into the 20s on some mocks.

the other “point guards” that could conceivably go in the lotto at this point are either 6’8”-6’10” dudes who are going to be playing on the wing in the NBA (Dyson Daniels/ Ousman Dieng) or 6’5”-6’6” dudes who’ll end up guarding shooting guards or small wings in the NBA (Johnny Davis/Malachi Branham)
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#24
#24
The_Jamal said:
kb02 the biggest fake sharp I've ever seen in my life. Now Mo Williams is better than Fox? Who's next? Steve Blake? Was Corey Joseph actually being held back by Fox? Should we have stuck with George Hill and traded rookie Fox?

These are the questions only one man can answer.
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When the data says otherwise, throw shade. Got it.
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#30
#30
Tetsujin said:
Right, the only other PG slotted to go in the top ten was TyTy Washington and he’s been plummettting down into the 20s on some mocks.

the other “point guards” that could conceivably go in the lotto at this point are either 6’8”-6’10” dudes who are going to be playing on the wing in the NBA (Dyson Daniels/ Ousman Dieng) or 6’5”-6’6” dudes who’ll end up guarding shooting guards or small wings in the NBA (Johnny Davis/Malachi Branham)
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Actually good to know. Haven’t paid any attention to the prospects yet. Don’t barely-educate myself until the lottery wraps. Just enough to make myself look stupid (usually) … except in the 77 draft where I was right. Lmao
 
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