Fox or Haliburton?
- Thread starter Sac4cwebb
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How long are you gonna keep spewing this nonsense? It’s tired. And LAZY. It’s certainly not smart, as you suggest.
It’s been pointed out ad nauseam that the KINGS could have built a contending team numerous times over the past 15 years had they just selected the right player where they stood.
They didn’t need top 3 position to do it. Even recently when they had a top 3 pick, they blew it!
Yet here you are lobbying over and over to abandon competitive integrity because you somehow think that bushleague tactic is going to amount to something.
Some of you don’t really understand competition, let alone integrity. Instead its, “how can I take advantage of a loophole” even if it lacks any and all professionalism and integrity.
Resting the teams best players and not fielding the best lineups possible is not how it should be done. Ever.
The KINGS are a business being sold to consumers. When you patron a business, you expect the best product and service they can provide at all times. A restaurant may not serve the best cup of coffee or breakfast you’ve ever had and the customer service may not win awards, but you expect that it be best they can offer.
What you’re proposing is NONE of that. And I’m certain contradicts with your attitude as a consumer most anywhere else.
Lastly, I doubt you‘re spending any money to see this team — and for good reason. But a lot of hard working folks are. The vast majority aren’t paying the exorbitant ticket prices to see the understudy rather than the star. Same goes for advertisers.
Put your best product out there. Always. Anything less is unethical and false advertising. Period, end of story.
Lastly, I’ll say one last time. Higher draft picks don’t guarantee success. If this franchise is a dumb as you say they are (and they have been to this point in time) then they’ll miss with whatever picks they have, no matter where they land. Just like they did when they selected Bagley.
So stop with the nonsense already. Because your tactic is no ”smarter” than the team you’re criticizing.
It’s been pointed out ad nauseam that the KINGS could have built a contending team numerous times over the past 15 years had they just selected the right player where they stood.
They didn’t need top 3 position to do it. Even recently when they had a top 3 pick, they blew it!
Yet here you are lobbying over and over to abandon competitive integrity because you somehow think that bushleague tactic is going to amount to something.
Some of you don’t really understand competition, let alone integrity. Instead its, “how can I take advantage of a loophole” even if it lacks any and all professionalism and integrity.
Resting the teams best players and not fielding the best lineups possible is not how it should be done. Ever.
The KINGS are a business being sold to consumers. When you patron a business, you expect the best product and service they can provide at all times. A restaurant may not serve the best cup of coffee or breakfast you’ve ever had and the customer service may not win awards, but you expect that it be best they can offer.
What you’re proposing is NONE of that. And I’m certain contradicts with your attitude as a consumer most anywhere else.
Lastly, I doubt you‘re spending any money to see this team — and for good reason. But a lot of hard working folks are. The vast majority aren’t paying the exorbitant ticket prices to see the understudy rather than the star. Same goes for advertisers.
Put your best product out there. Always. Anything less is unethical and false advertising. Period, end of story.
Lastly, I’ll say one last time. Higher draft picks don’t guarantee success. If this franchise is a dumb as you say they are (and they have been to this point in time) then they’ll miss with whatever picks they have, no matter where they land. Just like they did when they selected Bagley.
So stop with the nonsense already. Because your tactic is no ”smarter” than the team you’re criticizing.
Dude had they lost 1 more game they would have picked 8th instead of Orlando and had Franz Wagner. Last year with no fans in the stands and a set of good wings between Barnes, Kuminga, Giddey and Wagner was the obvious year for a mild late tank. But the “brain trust” at the Kings couldn’t even figure that out. Yes the Kings are a business and they are running it into the ground.
Fox is a poor mans Dragic he's been insanely overrated by Kings fans and insanely overpaid for what is he similar to Cousins, the team suffers none from replacing him with journeymen PG's. Giving max money to a average PG is a Kings thing to do, Hailburton right now is a better fit and overall player. More and more people seem to be coming around on the Fox is not that good train not sure what has taken so long.
I'll give you one thing and it's your stubbornness to stick to a losing strategy. Many teams in the league have rebuilt, won, rebuilt and won since the last time the Kings won by using the type of strategy I described.
You're on this island of perceived integrity. As if the general public is thinking that the Kings are not even close to the worst franchise in sports because they still have their integrity. This franchise is a joke to everyone, including most of its fan base.
No one has ever said that success is guaranteed with high draft picks but you can't make an argument against high draft picks giving you much better odds at landing the best players.
I'll take the best players please. You can have your 32 win teams and some fantasy about integrity.
You're on this island of perceived integrity. As if the general public is thinking that the Kings are not even close to the worst franchise in sports because they still have their integrity. This franchise is a joke to everyone, including most of its fan base.
No one has ever said that success is guaranteed with high draft picks but you can't make an argument against high draft picks giving you much better odds at landing the best players.
I'll take the best players please. You can have your 32 win teams and some fantasy about integrity.
His premise is wrong. I would gladly attend games and will tune into LP when the Kings execute a major trade, even one that says we’re planning to suck the rest of this year in order to get a top 5 pick. A top 5 pick doesn’t guarantee a star, but the probability of getting a star within the top 5 picks is like 1000 to 1 after the top 5 picks.
I didn't love Houston's draft. They ended up with four first rounders that became Jalen Green, Alperen Sengun, Usman Garuba, and Josh Christopher.
I would have definitely taken Mobley over Green, loved the Sengun pick where they got him, like Garuba okay but would have take a few guys over Christopher.
All that said, as a fan I'd rather be in the position that the Rockets are in right now than the Kings. At least Rockets fans have hope for a bright future. They also still have Wood and Gordon as potential trade bait for more young players and/or picks and are currently lined up for another top 5 pick. They took a gamble on Kevin Porter Jr which may be a huge win for them or (based on last week's events) blow up, but it was a very low risk move based on what they gave up.
Yes, the Rockets had a player better than the Kings have ever had in Harden to trade to start their rebuild but they also gave up two future 1sts (2024 & 2026 I think) plus swaps to the Thunder in the Paul trade. So it isn't as if the Kings couldn't tear everything down and get the kind of assets that would allow them (for maybe the first time ever) to start a complete rebuild.
Because if McNair can't make the kind of moves to improve this team on the fly while building for the future (a tough task) then what other option is there beyond continued mediocrity. And mediocrity is being generous when this year's Kings will miss the playoffs for the 15th straight year, tying the Clippers for the longest streak in NBA history. If nothing major changes they'll have a strong chance to take the record outright next season. That's JUST making the playoffs - in a league where more teams (especially now with the play in game) make the playoffs than miss it. The Kings haven't even been in the top HALF of NBA teams for 15 straight years.
So I don't put any stock into the integrity of playing hard to finish the season when a lot of games don't matter to either team. You either get better now or you get worse now so you can be better later. Those are the only paths for a small market team that will never sign a superstar in free agency. Otherwise you just continue to be crappy year after year.
I think you hang on to Tyrese (and probably Davion) and do one of two things:
1. Deal Fox for Simmons if that deal is on the table. Trade for Turner if the remaining pieces can get it done. Deal whoever is left beyond Hali and Mitchell to balance the roster. See if that squad can do what this one clearly can't. It doesn't have to be for those exact two guys but shake up the roster to try and win now while bringing in pieces around Hali.
2. Fire sale the roster beyond those two guards. Fox, Barnes, Holmes, Hield, Bagley (if anyone offers anything for him), and any other pieces that will net a young player or draft pick. Strip it down to the studs and rebuild.
Because really, anything other than major trades or a complete rebuild is going to keep the team on the same 15 year treadmill.
I would have definitely taken Mobley over Green, loved the Sengun pick where they got him, like Garuba okay but would have take a few guys over Christopher.
All that said, as a fan I'd rather be in the position that the Rockets are in right now than the Kings. At least Rockets fans have hope for a bright future. They also still have Wood and Gordon as potential trade bait for more young players and/or picks and are currently lined up for another top 5 pick. They took a gamble on Kevin Porter Jr which may be a huge win for them or (based on last week's events) blow up, but it was a very low risk move based on what they gave up.
Yes, the Rockets had a player better than the Kings have ever had in Harden to trade to start their rebuild but they also gave up two future 1sts (2024 & 2026 I think) plus swaps to the Thunder in the Paul trade. So it isn't as if the Kings couldn't tear everything down and get the kind of assets that would allow them (for maybe the first time ever) to start a complete rebuild.
Because if McNair can't make the kind of moves to improve this team on the fly while building for the future (a tough task) then what other option is there beyond continued mediocrity. And mediocrity is being generous when this year's Kings will miss the playoffs for the 15th straight year, tying the Clippers for the longest streak in NBA history. If nothing major changes they'll have a strong chance to take the record outright next season. That's JUST making the playoffs - in a league where more teams (especially now with the play in game) make the playoffs than miss it. The Kings haven't even been in the top HALF of NBA teams for 15 straight years.
So I don't put any stock into the integrity of playing hard to finish the season when a lot of games don't matter to either team. You either get better now or you get worse now so you can be better later. Those are the only paths for a small market team that will never sign a superstar in free agency. Otherwise you just continue to be crappy year after year.
I think you hang on to Tyrese (and probably Davion) and do one of two things:
1. Deal Fox for Simmons if that deal is on the table. Trade for Turner if the remaining pieces can get it done. Deal whoever is left beyond Hali and Mitchell to balance the roster. See if that squad can do what this one clearly can't. It doesn't have to be for those exact two guys but shake up the roster to try and win now while bringing in pieces around Hali.
2. Fire sale the roster beyond those two guards. Fox, Barnes, Holmes, Hield, Bagley (if anyone offers anything for him), and any other pieces that will net a young player or draft pick. Strip it down to the studs and rebuild.
Because really, anything other than major trades or a complete rebuild is going to keep the team on the same 15 year treadmill.
IMO, both routes have their logic and can lead to success. Problem is that the Kings have failed miserably and consistently with the "integrity" route - 15 years of playoff futility and counting - AND have more failures than successes with the high-lottery route (e.g., Bags, TRob, Willie, Evans vs. Fox, Cousins). And their high-lottery drafting misses have been BAD misses. Not we-landed-a-solid-10-year-starter-instead-of-the-perennial-all-stars-we-thought-they-were bad, but they're-no-longer-in-the-damn-league bad.
I think the tank crowd has the better side of the argument from a Kings historical perspective, but the record is so bleak all around that I really don't see the (historical) basis for confidence on either side.
I think the tank crowd has the better side of the argument from a Kings historical perspective, but the record is so bleak all around that I really don't see the (historical) basis for confidence on either side.
Really most people will tell you that generally after the top 3, possibly best top 5, and rarely after the top 8 things fall off dramatically.
only Bagley was in the top 3. Fox, Evans, Bagley, Cousins and Robinson were top 5. And yes the Kings have excelled at picking the wrong player.
for example around Robinson:
1) Anthony Davis
2) Michael Kidd Gilchrist
3) Bradley Beal
4) Dion Waiters
5) Thomas Robinson
6) Damion Lilliard
7) Harrison Barnes
8) Terrance Ross
9) Andre Drummond
only Bagley was in the top 3. Fox, Evans, Bagley, Cousins and Robinson were top 5. And yes the Kings have excelled at picking the wrong player.
for example around Robinson:
1) Anthony Davis
2) Michael Kidd Gilchrist
3) Bradley Beal
4) Dion Waiters
5) Thomas Robinson
6) Damion Lilliard
7) Harrison Barnes
8) Terrance Ross
9) Andre Drummond
But that's what im confused about. They absolutely fit together IMO, especially now that Hali has finally decided to shoot the ball. You're right though .. we gotta make big changes. No point in holding on to what isn't working and these are the only guys with real value, unfortunately.
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Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley, Scottie Barnes, Ant Edwards, LaMelo Ball, Zion Williamson, Ja Morant, DeAndre Ayton, Luka Doncic, Jaren Jackson Jr, Trae Young, Lonzo Ball, Tatum, De'Aaron Fox, Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown.
Players all picked in the top 5 of the last 6 drafts. Definitely should keep having pride at the end of the season and bring our win total up from 32 to 35. Wouldn't want access to like 80-85% of the upcoming stars in the NBA right?
In Contrast, players picked 9-14 in that span with somewhat the same credentials:
Domanatas Sabonis, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Miles Bridges (I guess we include with his breakout), Michael Porter Jr (Side note. It's insane how many damn good players were in this 2018 draft and we strategically avoided all of them with the 2nd pick. Crazy). Tyler Herro, Tyrese Haliburton
Unfortunately, the 2 times the Kings got into the pick 1-5 pool, they picked one of the mid-tier "hits" in Fox and probably the lowest rated (or at least bottom 5) picks in Bagley. Easy to see why we're stuck where we are once you look at where the Kings have been drafting and their success rate once in he top 5.
Players all picked in the top 5 of the last 6 drafts. Definitely should keep having pride at the end of the season and bring our win total up from 32 to 35. Wouldn't want access to like 80-85% of the upcoming stars in the NBA right?
In Contrast, players picked 9-14 in that span with somewhat the same credentials:
Domanatas Sabonis, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Mikal Bridges, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Miles Bridges (I guess we include with his breakout), Michael Porter Jr (Side note. It's insane how many damn good players were in this 2018 draft and we strategically avoided all of them with the 2nd pick. Crazy). Tyler Herro, Tyrese Haliburton
Unfortunately, the 2 times the Kings got into the pick 1-5 pool, they picked one of the mid-tier "hits" in Fox and probably the lowest rated (or at least bottom 5) picks in Bagley. Easy to see why we're stuck where we are once you look at where the Kings have been drafting and their success rate once in he top 5.
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