Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

[The_Jamal]

Who do you suspect will be the better player in 3 years?

It's hard for me not to be biased, but I can't help but think Fox has a good shot at taking the crown in the next couple years. If he shoots even a couple percentage points better from 3 and the line you are looking at a monster scorer. He has the tools to be one of the best defensive guards too he just hasn't shown it. Maybe Off Night rubs off on him and he elevates his game on that end.

Yeah it's tough. It's hard to imagine Fox getting much better on the offensive end than he's been the last few years (improved shot willing of course) and that's about all you can expect out of your #1 option. He's got to show the growth on the defensive end, something usually pretty rare for a player heading into his 5th year.

I think short-term, I'd still take Simmons the next 2 years. If you told me I could only have 1 over the next 5 years, I'd probably gamble that Fox hits his defensive upside more often than not.

 

[Woot!]

So going by your rankings of Simmons and Embiid, and I agree with the Embiid ranking, and knowing that the 76ers also have a top 5 defensive wing in Thybulle, a knock down 3 point shooter in Curry, a capable small ball 4 in Harris along with solid pieces off the bench in Maxey and occasionally Milton, they had a solid reserve big in Dwight. How do they not get to the championship? How do they not get past a defensively challenged Atlanta?

My thinking is that Simmons is difficult to build around, but not impossible. And I’m not knocking him. But he’s a Draymond Green in that you surround them with these really good pieces and then they can flourish. I personally think Simmons makes the 76ers somewhat offensively challenged as they are built right now because of his lack of outside game. Yes, defensively, the 76ers can be and are stout. But we saw what an offensive team like the Hawks were able to do.

Now I don’t agree that Simmons is a top 15 player but I also don’t think he’s terrible despite the shooting and free throw shooting but those 2 aspects are a big thing. I’ll stick with Fox as I think those type of guys who can score like that and see the floor a bit are really hard to find. I think if Sac surrounds with defensive pieces, we could see the playoffs. I think if Fox was on the 76ers instead of Simmons, then there is still enough defensive juice on the 76ers that they would become more capable offensively and go farther.

I also think that if the 76ers obtained Hield and Bagley and firsts AND Maxey can adequately replace Simmons in the lineup, like they may be better in the long run……doesn’t mean Hield and Bagley are better but I could feasibly see how Embiid would benefit from the addition of Hield’s shooting. Maybe this last part is a stretch.

Just wanna comment on one thing.

I think Fox could be an above-average defensive player tomorrow if he disciplined himself to be that. He's smart, a phenomenal athlete even by NBA standards, and getting stronger and stronger. He's clearly been more invested in the offensive end to date, has felt called and been given license to *carry* the team offensively, and just hasn't seen fit to bust his a$$ on BOTH ends of the floor. I think we'll see a new Fox, defensively, this year.

Fox w/last year's offensive impact + newfound attention to defense = absolute star.

Simmons, OTOH, can't shore up the gaping holes in HIS game simply thru effort and want-to. Yes, obviously, he's not terrible. He has great skills. But he's much more likely than Fox to need "covering up," especially in the playoffs, until and unless he proves otherwise. The playoff game is a different animal than the regular season game - in terms of intensity, opponent quality, preparation... A player's impact is much more likely to be defined by their weaknesses than their strengths in the playoffs because opponents will probe weaknesses RUTHLESSLY as compared to the regular season.

Simmons' offensive problems will be THE weakness every playoff opponent hammers until/unless he can make them pay. Citing his shooting percentage, etc., clearly skirts the issue of how much he hurt the Sixers last postseason (and, no, their loss wasn't all him).

 

[ESP47]

Just wanna comment on one thing.

I think Fox could be an above-average defensive player tomorrow if he disciplined himself to be that. He's smart, a phenomenal athlete even by NBA standards, and getting stronger and stronger. He's clearly been more invested in the offensive end to date, has felt called and been given license to *carry* the team offensively, and just hasn't seen fit to bust his a$$ on BOTH ends of the floor. I think we'll see a new Fox, defensively, this year.

Fox w/last year's offensive impact + newfound attention to defense = absolute star.

Simmons, OTOH, can't shore up the gaping holes in HIS game simply thru effort and want-to. Yes, obviously, he's not terrible. He has great skills. But he's much more likely than Fox to need "covering up," especially in the playoffs, until and unless he proves otherwise. The playoff game is a different animal than the regular season game - in terms of intensity, opponent quality, preparation... A player's impact is much more likely to be defined by their weaknesses than their strengths in the playoffs because opponents will probe weaknesses RUTHLESSLY as compared to the regular season.

Simmons' offensive problems will be THE weakness every playoff opponent hammers until/unless he can make them pay. Citing his shooting percentage, etc., clearly skirts the issue of how much he hurt the Sixers last postseason (and, no, their loss wasn't all him).

He hurt the Sixers at times but was an overall huge net positive in the playoffs for them. You can't discount all the good work someone does because of a few bad plays. The Sixers may not even be in a position to where that possession even mattered (talking about his gun shy move at the rim) if Simmons hadn't done the work he did up until that point. That final game, he had 13 assists and 2 TO. Can't forget about things like that.

 

[Padrino]

The grousing about whether or not a team can be "built around" Ben Simmons is so strange to me. Does it matter for the purposes of the Kings' competitive outlook? If McNair managed to trade for Simmons, he would instantly become the single best player to don a Kings uni since Chris Webber, and he would instantly become the best individual defender in Sacramento Kings history. Yes, better than Ron Arrest in his prime. Simmons really is that good on the defensive end. I'd even argue that he'd instantly become the best playmaker to ever suit up for this team, as well as one of the most physically-gifted athletes in team history.

Is Simmons a plug-and-play superstar that can thrive under any and all conditions? No, but those guys are exceedingly rare in the first place, and the only way the Kings will ever end up with one is if they luck out on draft day. They had their shot in 2018 and missed on Luka Doncic and now here we are, in no position to be picky about raw talent acquisition. If you can buy low on a guy like Ben Simmons, you do it, and sort out the mess later.

And it could be a glorious mess, indeed, for the record. NBA fans are so in thrall to the narratives surrounding Simmons' shooting woes that they've lost sight of the extraordinary talent beyond the flaws. His shooting issues and mental shakiness are not insignificant, but 1) they're also not insurmountable with respect to roster construction around him, and 2) he wouldn't be on the trade block at all without them. Flawed talent is the table at which the Kings get to eat as a small market backwater.

I mean, Kings fans themselves complain every single year about the below-average talent on the squad, and one has to twist oneself into quite the psychological pretzel to convince oneself that there has been any kind of meaningful roster re-tooling this off-season. The Kings are heading into training camp with basically the same exact core players as last season + Davion Mitchell, who happens to play the same position as Fox/Hali. It appears that the front office believes in the notion of configuring them into a three-guard lineup. I'm less convinced, and I certainly would not hope for playoff contention solely on the back of in-house development and lineup experimentation. Even if Fox graduates to official all-star status, Hali takes a big step forward, and Mitchell is as mature and NBA-ready as advertised, the West remains an absolute gauntlet that requires significant talent just to enter the conversation for the eighth seed. If Simmons is available, and if McNair can snag him on the cheap, then he should absolutely do so.

More to the point, Monte has already made it clear that Fox and Haliburton aren't on the table in any kind of trade for Simmons. If the Kings managed to trade for him, it would be an opportunistic kind of deal. It's unlikely to come to fruition, of course, but the reports are that McNair has offered Buddy/Bagley/pick(s) and/or Buddy/Barnes/pick(s), and if either of those packages could somehow get it done between now and the trade deadline next year, then Monte needs to pull the trigger without thinking twice.

There are legitimate questions about fit between Fox and Simmons should the two of them end up playing together, but I don't understand the point of the argument over which of them is "better." Though the OP/thread title suggests trading one for the other, there has been no indication whatsoever that Fox would actually be sent out in any hypothetical trade for Simmons. It's not an either/or situation. The challenge would be in figuring out how to fit them together, which is no small task, but is also entirely possible with some creative thinking. I would add that the team is already attempting to creatively fit awkward pieces together by talking up the possibility of a Fox/Hali/Mitchell lineup. I say try shoving square pegs into round holes with the established all-star/playmaking wizard/defensive wunderkind.

 

[upinsmoke]

He hurt the Sixers at times but was an overall huge net positive in the playoffs for them. You can't discount all the good work someone does because of a few bad plays. The Sixers may not even be in a position to where that possession even mattered (talking about his gun shy move at the rim) if Simmons hadn't done the work he did up until that point. That final game, he had 13 assists and 2 TO. Can't forget about things like that.

Cant discount this either it happened and it wasn't the first time.

Hes both an asset and liability really unique situation here.

 

[Woot!]

He hurt the Sixers at times but was an overall huge net positive in the playoffs for them. You can't discount all the good work someone does because of a few bad plays. The Sixers may not even be in a position to where that possession even mattered (talking about his gun shy move at the rim) if Simmons hadn't done the work he did up until that point. That final game, he had 13 assists and 2 TO. Can't forget about things like that.

"A few bad plays." Okay. Pretty sure the Sixers would legit be embracing him as part of their long-term future, and all our *debate* would be moot, if they shared your take.

At any rate, I don't have anything to add to what I and some others have said. I'll just remind you that the question isn't whether Simmons is a good player (top-15 or not), a GREAT defender, a very good playmaker and rebounder... I'm pretty sure most everyone on this board - on "both sides" of the Ben Simmons debate - would happily trade Buddy/Bags/1st for him, which places him firmly in "not a scrub" territory in my book.

But just *how* good he is? Paraphrasing upinsmoke, how many parts "asset" and how many parts "liability" is he? We disagree. And, as Stuart Smalley would say, that's o-kay!

 

[EIM86]

"A few bad plays." Okay. Pretty sure the Sixers would legit be embracing him as part of their long-term future, and all our *debate* would be moot, if they shared your take.

At any rate, I don't have anything to add to what I and some others have said. I'll just remind you that the question isn't whether Simmons is a good player (top-15 or not), a GREAT defender, a very good playmaker and rebounder... I'm pretty sure most everyone on this board - on "both sides" of the Ben Simmons debate - would happily trade Buddy/Bags/1st for him, which places him in "not a scrub" territory in my book.

But just *how* good he is? Paraphrasing upinsmoke, how many parts "asset" and many parts "liability" is he? We disagree. And, as Stuart Smalley would say, that's o-kay!

Yeah we’ve killed this topic to dust now. It’s pretty clear that we are gonna run with the team we got until at least all star break.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1441548544066797573

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Cant discount this either it happened and it wasn't the first time.

Hes both an asset and liability really unique situation here.

I wonder if Simmons has ever seriously worked on shooting FT’s right-handed. He probably couldn’t do any worse.

It might sound like a silly idea to some, but he’s such a poor shooter — why not try something else? Or Rick Barry style.

Speaking for myself, whenever I got into a funk where I had trouble shooting FT’s, I’d switch it up and shoot with my left. I do the same thing shooting darts, horseshoes and beanbags.

Doing so can help you reset and concentrate more (which very well could help a mental issue). Unless you are just absolute trash and have no ambidextrous skills whatsoever. But honestly, anyone can work on it and become decent at it.

If I was Ben Simmons, I’d try it. But maybe he’s like Shaq in being too cool for school and too hip-hop to for it. IDK.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1441808755671371777

Ben’s value’s never been higher!

Fox/Tyrese/Davion/five unprotected firsts/five pick swaps for Simmons.

 

[SLAB]

I love this trainwreck so much. Keep your foot down Benjamin!

 

[macadocious]

There is no benefit to a player (like this) to increase his trade value. If a team guts itself for him, he goes to a crappy team.

 

[Kingz19]

That Buddy, Bagley, and picks deal should look like a steal now if Morey’s head is even half way out of his behind

 

[Capt. Factorial]

That Buddy, Bagley, and picks deal should look like a steal now if Morey’s head is even half way out of his behind

The other deals that are being talked about seems to be Cavs for Kevin Love and picks, and the mysterious Minny offer, which given that it won't include KAT or presumably Edwards, would seem to be no better than D'Angelo Russell and picks, maybe they can throw in a Naz Reid or a McDaniels. I'm not sure either of those offers are super tempting. It all comes down to how many picks, I guess.

 

[SacTownKid]

The other deals that are being talked about seems to be Cavs for Kevin Love and picks, and the mysterious Minny offer, which given that it won't include KAT or presumably Edwards, would seem to be no better than D'Angelo Russell and picks, maybe they can throw in a Naz Reid or a McDaniels. I'm not sure either of those offers are super tempting. It all comes down to how many picks, I guess.

If the deal becomes about picks the the trainwreck gets even deeper. Try explaining that one to Embiid haha. I can't believe a simple 3 team deal isn't being a worked out where the rebuilding package is sent elsewhere and a win now type is sent to the Sixers. Too many teams like the Wizards are deadset on still trying to compete.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

The other deals that are being talked about seems to be Cavs for Kevin Love and picks, and the mysterious Minny offer, which given that it won't include KAT or presumably Edwards, would seem to be no better than D'Angelo Russell and picks, maybe they can throw in a Naz Reid or a McDaniels. I'm not sure either of those offers are super tempting. It all comes down to how many picks, I guess.

If it comes down to picks, I’d lean toward the KINGS having an advantage there considering their long track record of holding lottery picks. Unless another org simply outbids them by offering more picks.

 

[kingsboi]

LA is the place where a socialite can thrive

 

[SLAB]

That Buddy, Bagley, and picks deal should look like a steal now if Morey’s head is even half way out of his behind

Narrator; It isn’t.

 

[Padrino]

That Buddy, Bagley, and picks deal should look like a steal now if Morey’s head is even half way out of his behind

I'm in agreement, though I'd quibble that Buddy/Barnes/pick(s) is a better deal for the Sixers, and I think it's the one Morey would angle for if he was dealing with the Kings and was forced to take considerably less than he wants in a trade for Ben Simmons.

That said, either of those deals will likely still be on the table at the trade deadline. My guess is Morey's going to wait and see just how much money Simmons is willing to sacrifice by sitting out. If he caves and reports to the team, perhaps Morey can regain some leverage in trade talks and coax more value out of Simmons.

It's a big time gamble, of course. Even though he's a sh*t fit next to Embiid, the Sixers were still the top seed in the East last season with Ben Simmons in the lineup. If Morey stares him down and Simmons doesn't blink or report before the trade deadline, the prospect of home court advantage in the playoffs will vanish pretty quickly. And Morey really can't waste a season sorting this out. Embiid's window could be perilously short.

 

[Kingz19]

I'm in agreement, though I'd quibble that Buddy/Barnes/pick(s) is a better deal for the Sixers, and I think it's the one Morey would angle for if he was dealing with the Kings and was forced to take considerably less than he wants in a trade for Ben Simmons.

That said, either of those deals will likely still be on the table at the trade deadline. My guess is Morey's going to wait and see just how much money Simmons is willing to sacrifice by sitting out. If he caves and reports to the team, perhaps Morey can regain some leverage in trade talks and coax more value out of Simmons.

It's a big time gamble, of course. Even though he's a sh*t fit next to Embiid, the Sixers were still the top seed in the East last season with Ben Simmons in the lineup. If Morey stares him down and Simmons doesn't blink or report before the trade deadline, the prospect of home court advantage in the playoffs will vanish pretty quickly. And Morey really can't waste a season sorting this out. Embiid's window could be perilously short.

that is better for Philly

Id be ok with any combination of Kings going to Philly for Simmons so long as Fox, Hali, and Mitchell arent touched. Obviously if Mitchell was the centerpiece of a Kings package(doubtful), I would do it, but not as an addition

 

[pdxKingsFan]

that is better for Philly

Id be ok with any combination of Kings going to Philly for Simmons so long as none of our guards are touched. Obviously if Mitchell was the centerpiece of a Kings package(doubtful), I would do it, but not as an addition

The problem is almost any deal has to include Buddy + Bagley or Barnes to make the salary work, so there is no deal where Mitchell is the "centerpiece" where we don't also lose every other trade chip we have.

 

[Kingz19]

The problem is almost any deal has to include Buddy + Bagley or Barnes to make the salary work, so there is no deal where Mitchell is the "centerpiece" where we don't also lose every other trade chip we have.

Agreed. Any combination of Kings whether it’s Buddy/Bagley or Buddy/Barnes is fine by me. I was only pointing out the circumstances of which I would be fine with Mitchell being In a trade so people weren’t thinking I was overvaluing him by making it seem like I would take Mitchell over Simmons which people might think when you make somebody “untouchable” in trade talks. I know the scenario wasn’t practical which is why I added “(doubtful)” after I typed it.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Agreed. Any combination of Kings whether it’s Buddy/Bagley or Buddy/Barnes is fine by me. I was only pointing out the circumstances of which I would be fine with Mitchell being In a trade so people weren’t thinking I was overvaluing him by making it seem like I would take Mitchell over Simmons which people might think when you make somebody “untouchable” in trade talks. I know the scenario wasn’t practical which is why I added “(doubtful)” after I typed it.

Yeah, I mean there are deals with our core players out there I'd make but they involve the picks coming back our way or Maxsey or Thybulle coming back in addition to Simmons. The off court issues with Simmons are just too big of a wild card otherwise.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1442506009839235072

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1442516432059867142

LOL

 

[kingsboi]

JoJo playing the media like a fiddle

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Seeing Doc and Morey at the press conference today further shows how stubborn and out-of-touch with reality Morey is re: this Ben Simmons situation.

Morey cited the Aaron Rodgers situation to suggest the same is going to happen with Simmons.

First, Rodgers is only back for this season. He likely ain’t staying there after that. And the Packers won’t be receiving any compensation for him when he does leave. If Morey believes that’s winning, more power to him.

Also, the Simmons situation is drastically different for numerous reasons, but one being that Rodgers wasn’t being thrown under the bus for the teams failures.

All Morey is doing by remaining stubborn is decreasing trade value. The longer this drags on, assuming Simmons makes good on his promise not to play or even meet with the FO, the worse it gets. Does anybody believe Rich Paul will ever direct one of his FA players to sign with Philly?

Even if he does return, is that really gonna be a good thing? Talk about a toxic locker room.

Just like in divorce, there’s no winning involved in this. Just degrees of losing.

 

[kb02]

Seeing Doc and Morey at the press conference today further shows how stubborn and out-of-touch with reality Morey is re: this Ben Simmons situation.

Morey cited the Aaron Rodgers situation to suggest the same is going to happen with Simmons.

First, Rodgers is only back for this season. He likely ain’t staying there after that. And the Packers won’t be receiving any compensation for him when he does leave. If Morey believes that’s winning, more power to him.

Also, the Simmons situation is drastically different for numerous reasons, but one being that Rodgers wasn’t being thrown under the bus for the teams failures.

All Morey is doing by remaining stubborn is decreasing trade value. The longer this drags on, assuming Simmons makes good on his promise not to play or even meet with the FO, the worse it gets. Does anybody believe Rich Paul will ever direct one of his FA players to sign with Philly?

Even if he does return, is that really gonna be a good thing? Talk about a toxic locker room.

Just like in divorce, there’s no winning involved in this. Just degrees of losing.

I think both sides know where the max pain point is. My bet: the trade deadline.
Absolute worse case scenario for Morey is an injury to Embid and the Kings/Blazers win early,
As for Rich Paul, I think you overstate his influence. Plenty of super agents fade in influence once their main star retires.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

As for Rich Paul, I think you overstate his influence. Plenty of super agents fade in influence once their main star retires.

Even if what you suggest is true, that’s not the reality in the here and now. Or likely even in the next few years.

And that matters.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think both sides know where the max pain point is. My bet: the trade deadline.
Absolute worse case scenario for Morey is an injury to Embid and the Kings/Blazers win early,
As for Rich Paul, I think you overstate his influence. Plenty of super agents fade in influence once their main star retires.

Klutch is more than just a Bron agency though. AD, Draymond, Lonzo, Zach Lavine, and Anthony Edwards are still under their representation (along with quite a few players in this year’s draft) and they’ll be getting an influx of more young talent over the next couple of years as youngsters sign up for the agency Lebron built.