Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#541
#541
Jkbiker said:
Yeah maybe 3 unprot picks are too many
Maybe 1 2022 unprot pick and a 2026 top ten prot pick works for me
But Morey has been asking for all-star player and like 4 picks/Swaps
buddy/Bagley are far from all-stars, Buddy has big contract
Morey does have to come down on his price, but my guess he could do better than 1.5 starting non all-stars and 1.5 1sts
from many other teams

Without Fox or Hali we have to send some serious draft capital
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And truthfully, as much as Haliburton has shown, I'd rather include him then these forever picks when you consider how the Kings look in the backcourt already. If the Kings were a contender already or just 1 piece away and Simmons was a surefire franchise type for sure this would be a lot easier to gauge. The Kings haven't gone "all in" yet, but going "all in" and it blowing up in their face would set this franchise back for nearly a decade.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#542
#542
According to a source with knowledge of their situation, the Kings spoke to the Sixers weeks ago and made it clear that both De’Aaron Fox and Tyrese Haliburton would not be included in a possible Simmons deal. That stance, the source said, has not and will not change and the internal expectation is that the core of their roster will remain the same heading into training camp later this month. There are no current conversations between the two teams and, barring a drastic change in demands, it appears the Kings are an unlikely landing spot for Simmons.

If there is a Kings deal to be had eventually, Kings guard Buddy Hield and forward Marvin Bagley III have been widely seen as the most likely players to be included. Per the source, the Kings and Sixers have not talked about Simmons since the conversations weeks ago.
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Morey: Give us Fox and/or Tyrese
Monte: LOLNO
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#545
#545
Capt. Factorial said:
On the assumption that we traded Buddy/Barnes for Simmons, I think my rotations (with minutes) would look somewhat like:

Starters:
35 Fox
35 Haliburton
35 Simmons
25 Bagley
30 Holmes

Bench:
25 Mitchell
15 Davis
20 Harkless
20 Metu

with everybody else getting spot/situational minutes. I don't think spacing is a huge issue for that starting lineup - Haliburton was obviously a good shooter last year, Fox's numbers are looking up, and Bagley hit .413 from the corner three and .343 overall. On the bench, we would have to hope that Mitchell's senior year 3P% holds close to true - Davis can shoot and even Metu has shown some promise. But spacing is OK.

Adding Simmons and Mitchell would drastically improve the defense, even before accounting for the Rub-Off-Off-Night factor. I'd definitely roll the dice on that team. I don't want to give up three firsts to make it happen, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that's at least a .500 team.
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That team would have to thrive in transition because I think they'd have a very tough time generating good looks in the half court. Bagley has improved considerably at corner threes, but most of his looks are wide open as opposing teams are still essentially daring him to launch from outside. And even then, Bags still shot more than three times as many shots in the paint as he did from three (348 vs 108).

Holmes and Simmons only shoot from inside the paint, and Fox's outside shot is primarily a threat because defenders know he's always a danger to blow by them to the hoop.

If I were an opposing coach I'd likely defend that starting five with a zone as often as possible and in man-to-man coverage sag off everyone and run drop coverage on every pick & roll.

I'm not really in favor of dealing Fox for Simmons, but it actually makes the most sense from a roster balance perspective.

Mitchell
Haliburton
Barnes
Simmons
Holmes (or possibly Bagley to spread the floor)

is a much better fitting starting five and allows Simmons to be the primary ballhandler. Rotate in Hield and let Simmons be a smallball 5 and you have a lot of shooting around Ben.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#546
#546
SacTownKid said:
I think Morey is trying to force Simmons into staying. This is Harden all over again. I can kind of see doing that with Harden, but Simmons? This dude isn't a franchise player.
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Going back to Harden, it's like Morey is stuck on Simmons's valuation during the Harden trade when it was looking like Harden for Simmons/Maxey or Thybulle/a pick was a deal that looked possible despite the ensuing half a year that concluded with both his head coach and franchise player throwing Ben under the bus and Ben refusing to play for his team again.

Plus, I'd argue that the people who thought Simmons and a pick for Harden was close to getting done were more optimistic than they should have been.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#547
#547
funkykingston said:
That team would have to thrive in transition because I think they'd have a very tough time generating good looks in the half court. Bagley has improved considerably at corner threes, but most of his looks are wide open as opposing teams are still essentially daring him to launch from outside. And even then, Bags still shot more than three times as many shots in the paint as he did from three (348 vs 108).

Holmes and Simmons only shoot from inside the paint, and Fox's outside shot is primarily a threat because defenders know he's always a danger to blow by them to the hoop.

If I were an opposing coach I'd likely defend that starting five with a zone as often as possible and in man-to-man coverage sag off everyone and run drop coverage on every pick & roll.

I'm not really in favor of dealing Fox for Simmons, but it actually makes the most sense from a roster balance perspective.

Mitchell
Haliburton
Barnes
Simmons
Holmes (or possibly Bagley to spread the floor)

is a much better fitting starting five and allows Simmons to be the primary ballhandler. Rotate in Hield and let Simmons be a smallball 5 and you have a lot of shooting around Ben.
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Yeah, if you're going for a talent addition thing you don't even consider moving Fox. You pair he and Simmons together if you feel Simmons is worthy of being a true number 2 option. Fox has expanded his game into being a legit iso threat that can carry a team even when the defense is focusing on him. That roster you're left with has nobody that has proven that even if the fit seems better. Barnes is probably the best bet in that particular lineup to throw the ball to and generate points. Haliburton isn't that guy, and even though it was summer league Davion doesn't look like that guy either. Remember these are pretty developed players as well. Davion does have a killer hesitation move that is good for 6 ppg a night easy until teams game plan for it.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#549
#549
SacTownKid said:
Yeah, if you're going for a talent addition thing you don't even consider moving Fox. You pair he and Simmons together if you feel Simmons is worthy of being a true number 2 option. Fox has expanded his game into being a legit iso threat that can carry a team even when the defense is focusing on him. That roster you're left with has nobody that has proven that even if the fit seems better. Barnes is probably the best bet in that particular lineup to throw the ball to and generate points. Haliburton isn't that guy, and even though it was summer league Davion doesn't look like that guy either. Remember these are pretty developed players as well. Davion does have a killer hesitation move that is good for 6 ppg a night easy until teams game plan for it.
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Like I said, Simmons is tough to build a winning team around. He's the rare star player that can't be your go-to scorer. He's like a giant sized Rondo with even worse shooting. If you could pry him from Philly on the cheap I think you have to just based on talent, but I don't know you could build a contending team with Fox and Simmons as your best two players. Especially when both really only thrive when on the ball offensively.
 
EIM86

EIM86

Starter
#554
#554
The_Jamal said:
This is good. Let Philly hang themselves.
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I been saying the trade ain’t gonna happen lol. Monte is a Morey disciple, he knows all his tricks and his mindset. Monte ain’t the GOAT of GMs but he knows his teacher better then all of us by a mile.

Off-Night is not the immediate Fox or better level player we got/need but big picture wise he’s exactly what we need #KeepTheCore
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#557
#557
Warriors and T-Wolves now favored to get Simmons in the sports books.

The issue there is that neither of those teams really has help now assets for the Sixers unless the Warriors decide to trade them Steph or Klay or Dray for some reason. The Warriors' biggest young prospect trade chip is James Wiseman too, who definitely wouldn't fit next to the dude the Sixers just gave a 200 million dollar extension to. Maybe a Wiggins/Poole/Kuminga/Moody/Picks deal gets them over the top but then the Warriors would be stuck playing a

Wiseman
Dray
Ben
Potentially diminished Klay
Steph

in which Klay would have to come back at least semi-decently to give them any semblance of spacing since Wiseman and Ben are both terrible at shooting and know it and Draymond quite simply shouldn't shoot. Also, the Sixers would have a weird logjam at the 3/4 wing and pretty terrible primary perimeter ball handling.


The T-Wolves are interesting in that they could offer up one or both of D'lo and Antman and give the Sixers the perimeter playmaker they so covet but their front office, much like Monte, appears to be hellbent on keeping both guys to play with their presumptive one-two punch of KAT and Simmons (AKA the softest core in the league) but I'm not sure they have the general assets otherwise to pull off a deal the Sixers would actually want. I guess they could give them Malik Beasley (and/or PatBev when he's eligible to be moved again) and Jaden McDaniels and picks but that's pretty much the Buddy/Bagley package but with a PF prospect that wasn't picked 2nd overall and in a perpetually rocky relationship with his fanbase.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#558
#558
It's crazy to me because Buddy and Bagley could be a great deal for them Bagley is even more devalued than Simmons but could still put together a solid career and Buddy gives them the shooting they covet. Plus they could turn around and trade Bagley in 4-6 months at a much higher price if they wanted to since I imagine he'll suddenly be healthy a lot more on a playoff level team with a fan base that won't tolerate his stink.

And frankly if they asked for a few pick swaps instead of firsts I bet they get them and I bet they win out on those.

I just don't see anyone else offering better value because Minnesota thinks they have a young core and the Warriors think they can win right now.
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#559
#559
funkykingston said:
That team would have to thrive in transition because I think they'd have a very tough time generating good looks in the half court. Bagley has improved considerably at corner threes, but most of his looks are wide open as opposing teams are still essentially daring him to launch from outside. And even then, Bags still shot more than three times as many shots in the paint as he did from three (348 vs 108).

Holmes and Simmons only shoot from inside the paint, and Fox's outside shot is primarily a threat because defenders know he's always a danger to blow by them to the hoop.

If I were an opposing coach I'd likely defend that starting five with a zone as often as possible and in man-to-man coverage sag off everyone and run drop coverage on every pick & roll.

I'm not really in favor of dealing Fox for Simmons, but it actually makes the most sense from a roster balance perspective.

Mitchell
Haliburton
Barnes
Simmons
Holmes (or possibly Bagley to spread the floor)

is a much better fitting starting five and allows Simmons to be the primary ballhandler. Rotate in Hield and let Simmons be a smallball 5 and you have a lot of shooting around Ben.
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I think Monte is still of the mindset of acquiring assets. If he can trade lesser assets for a better asset in Simmons he will and sort out fit later. He's gone all in on defensive focused role players. But I'd imagine if we end up with a Simmons/Fox pairing that lacks shooting from our role players, he would sell off some of his defense.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#560
#560
TaxMan said:
I think Monte is still of the mindset of acquiring assets. If he can trade lesser assets for a better asset in Simmons he will and sort out fit later. He's gone all in on defensive focused role players. But I'd imagine if we end up with a Simmons/Fox pairing that lacks shooting from our role players, he would sell off some of his defense.
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To that extent, adding Simmons would create just as many new questions as it does answers. The Kings are the most motivated of potential suitors to make a deal, but I do not believe Simmons is the one piece difference maker between playoffs and another year in the lottery.
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#561
#561
pdxKingsFan said:
To that extent, adding Simmons would create just as many new questions as it does answers. The Kings are the most motivated of potential suitors to make a deal, but I do not believe Simmons is the one piece difference maker between playoffs and another year in the lottery.
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That is certainly true. Simmons is polarizing player for sure. I definitely think you go for it at the right price as he currently has a resume that nobody on our team can touch. However, any deal that does get done (if ever) may literally crash this board... both from a set of folks seriously excited and other seriously pissed. Doesn't seem to be much middle ground.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#562
#562
pdxKingsFan said:
It's crazy to me because Buddy and Bagley could be a great deal for them Bagley is even more devalued than Simmons but could still put together a solid career and Buddy gives them the shooting they covet. Plus they could turn around and trade Bagley in 4-6 months at a much higher price if they wanted to since I imagine he'll suddenly be healthy a lot more on a playoff level team with a fan base that won't tolerate his stink.

And frankly if they asked for a few pick swaps instead of firsts I bet they get them and I bet they win out on those.

I just don't see anyone else offering better value because Minnesota thinks they have a young core and the Warriors think they can win right now.
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That's a good idea to sweeten the deal, but still keep a 1st rounder.

Maybe Monte can use his Morey connection to get a deal done. My best offer, Buddy, Bagley, 2 first round picks (top 5 protected) and 1 or 2 pick swaps (top lottery protected)! Get 'er done Monte! ;)
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#563
#563
SacTownKid said:
Yeah, if you're going for a talent addition thing you don't even consider moving Fox. You pair he and Simmons together if you feel Simmons is worthy of being a true number 2 option. Fox has expanded his game into being a legit iso threat that can carry a team even when the defense is focusing on him. That roster you're left with has nobody that has proven that even if the fit seems better. Barnes is probably the best bet in that particular lineup to throw the ball to and generate points. Haliburton isn't that guy, and even though it was summer league Davion doesn't look like that guy either. Remember these are pretty developed players as well. Davion does have a killer hesitation move that is good for 6 ppg a night easy until teams game plan for it.
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I think you forget Simmons. Give me Harris or Siakam or a lesser light without the gaping holes in the game. Forget Simmons.

Cuz, yes, in Fox you have a guy who can carry a team offensively for stretches by himself. You don't trade that away lightly; there aren't many who can do what he can do. And there's an absolute premium on *that* skill in the playoffs. And that's the goal, right?

But if you put together Fox, Simmons, and Holmes, you put a serious crimp on the skills that make Fox special. Simmons as small-ball 5 and sit Holmes? Maybe for short stretches, but my guess is that Ben Simmons doesn't want *that* defensive assignment very often.

And at the end of the day, unless you can substantially *fix* Ben Simmons' broken will and ability to shoot the ball come playoff time, what you have is a regular-season star and a hold-yer-breath playoff performer for max money over several more years. Maybe Rico can work his magic, but before taking that gamble I'd MUCH rather see what else Hield, Bags, and a pick or two can bring back between now and the trade deadline.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#564
#564
ockingsfan said:
That would be tough spacing wise.

But we would have to bank on Fox improving his 3 point shot (possible) and Hali becoming a good high volume 3 point shooter (probable), and Barnes remains solid from 3 (likely). If Simmons starts at SF, Mitchell would need to come off the bench and rotate in when Simmons goes to the bench.
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yeah I think counting on Hali makes sense given his free throw shooting. Not sure you can count on Fox
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#565
#565
So: thinking on a hypothetical Simmons-Holmes pairing and the BAD things it would do to Fox's penetration game, I was reminded of this curious stat I saw about Alex Len.

In his 8-year career, Len has attempted 313 3's. 204 of those attempts came in his 2018-19 season w/Atlanta - and he made 36.3% of them.

WHOA.

Alex Len, stretch-5 for yer Sacramento Kings? Is he polishing off that 3-ball even now?
 
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