Guard glut
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
I'm not against Simmons in the slightest and he's pretty much universally crucified for no reason as a top 15 player. But you make Philly pay through the roof if they want a young 23 year old star in return for a dude they actively have been trying to get rid of and scapegoat.
Kings get:
Ben Simmons
Mattisse Thybulle
Tyrese Maxey
Sixers get:
De'Aaron Fox
The value would have to be so overwhelming, you can't say no. Otherwise, you're trading an ascending offensive star who by all accounts actually loves being here for a guy in Simmons who likely will be looking to bail at the first opportunity he gets.
Kings get:
Ben Simmons
Mattisse Thybulle
Tyrese Maxey
Sixers get:
De'Aaron Fox
The value would have to be so overwhelming, you can't say no. Otherwise, you're trading an ascending offensive star who by all accounts actually loves being here for a guy in Simmons who likely will be looking to bail at the first opportunity he gets.
Drafting for BPA = make losing Fox or Hali sound less crazy. Of the three guards, the player I would trade first is Fox. Because of his contract and because I think the other two play a style that is more conducive to winning ball. Not saying Fox can’t get there, but at some point there has to be less boat racing and more playing at whatever pace will enable you to win.
Your trade isn’t happening in any reality. If you are going to draft BPA when you have a max player in his spot you better be ready to make a trade.
well I would add
1) I don’t think Fox and Simmons are highly complementary. If you have Ben you want guards that can shoot. Of Hali, Mitchell and Fox I think Fox is the worst outside shooter.
2) the issue here is either taking BPA when you have the Kings guards versus forwards or not realizing if you draft 9-12 the BPA will always be a guard.
3) getting a player of Simmons size and athleticism for a smaller guard is rare. You aren’t trading Fox for Tatum ever. This might literally be the only chance for the next 5 years. Unless you somehow think we will be bad enough for a top 5 pick
well I would add
1) I don’t think Fox and Simmons are highly complementary. If you have Ben you want guards that can shoot. Of Hali, Mitchell and Fox I think Fox is the worst outside shooter.
2) the issue here is either taking BPA when you have the Kings guards versus forwards or not realizing if you draft 9-12 the BPA will always be a guard.
3) getting a player of Simmons size and athleticism for a smaller guard is rare. You aren’t trading Fox for Tatum ever. This might literally be the only chance for the next 5 years. Unless you somehow think we will be bad enough for a top 5 pick
Short term? I assume we see Fox Hali and Buddy starting with Davis and Mitchell getting all the back up minutes and Ramsey in the G League. Long term I start Fox, Hali, Mitchell, Barnes and Holmes. Buddy traded for draft capital, Ramsey and Davis getting the back up minutes year after next. I don't care how short Mitchell is, he can guard 1-3. If BPA is another guard in the 22 draft I'm moving back in the draft until the BPA is a 3 and d wing.
LeBron, Kawhi? No, but I think Mitchell profiles as the defender you want for Luka. Luka punishes size because he's too quick and good with his body control. Just ends up get FTA once he gets to the rim. A quicker defender that can potentially speed him up, not give him room to get a full head of speed downhill towards the rim gives you the best chance to slow him down.
I'll live with Luka trying to shoot over Mitchell on what I know will be contested jumpers. That means he's not getting to the rim and to the line or creating wide open 3's for his better shooting teammates.
I'll live with Luka trying to shoot over Mitchell on what I know will be contested jumpers. That means he's not getting to the rim and to the line or creating wide open 3's for his better shooting teammates.
I don’t know how accurate this list is, but it is probably a semi accurate depth chart. http://www.espn.com/nba/depth
No one is saying Mitchell is guarding Lebron, Kawhi, or George, but he could guard (or give you minutes on) most of the 2s and half of the 3s on that depth chart. I’m sure Mitchell could give you minutes on Hunter, Joe Harris, Jalen Green, Barrett, Hayward, Bojan, Okiro, Bey, Wiggins, Warren, Ingles, Ross, Powell, McDermott, Danny Green, Trent, Bogie, Buddy (if you trade him) etc.
Teams start guys at 3 that are similar to the guys I list above much more regularly than starting Kawhi, Lebron, or Luka at 3. Those guys are 4s most of the time. Those 3s I list above might be “big” but they aren’t going to take you on the post and bully you. They want to shoot and slash. Mitchell can get into their bodies and make life hard.
Ironically, people here wanted Bouknight because he could play 3. Mitchell ate his lunch. Modern 3s aren’t Scottie Pippen and Lebron. Those are 4s. Modern 3s are guys who would have profiled as 2/3 just a few years back.
No one is saying Mitchell is guarding Lebron, Kawhi, or George, but he could guard (or give you minutes on) most of the 2s and half of the 3s on that depth chart. I’m sure Mitchell could give you minutes on Hunter, Joe Harris, Jalen Green, Barrett, Hayward, Bojan, Okiro, Bey, Wiggins, Warren, Ingles, Ross, Powell, McDermott, Danny Green, Trent, Bogie, Buddy (if you trade him) etc.
Teams start guys at 3 that are similar to the guys I list above much more regularly than starting Kawhi, Lebron, or Luka at 3. Those guys are 4s most of the time. Those 3s I list above might be “big” but they aren’t going to take you on the post and bully you. They want to shoot and slash. Mitchell can get into their bodies and make life hard.
Ironically, people here wanted Bouknight because he could play 3. Mitchell ate his lunch. Modern 3s aren’t Scottie Pippen and Lebron. Those are 4s. Modern 3s are guys who would have profiled as 2/3 just a few years back.
All this “trade Fox for Simmons” bunk is my latest Kingsfans trigger.
Philly isn’t the team they are because of Simmons, they’re a contender because of Embiid. 10-11 without the big fella, 39-12 with him playing last season. Last I checked we don’t have Embiid on the Kings.
So nah, I’ll pass on trading the guy who just dropped 25/7, gets better every season, and WANTS to be here for the dude who eeked out 14/7, hasn’t added anything to his skill set since his rookie season and is afraid to shoot the ball.
Yes our roster is unbalanced, so you trade Buddy, who brings a lot of warts with his sometimes elite, sometimes horrible streaky 3pt shooting.
I want to see the three headed monster of Fox/Hali/DM play at least half a season before we call it a bust. A full season if Luke (hopefully) gets the axe half way through.
Philly isn’t the team they are because of Simmons, they’re a contender because of Embiid. 10-11 without the big fella, 39-12 with him playing last season. Last I checked we don’t have Embiid on the Kings.
So nah, I’ll pass on trading the guy who just dropped 25/7, gets better every season, and WANTS to be here for the dude who eeked out 14/7, hasn’t added anything to his skill set since his rookie season and is afraid to shoot the ball.
Yes our roster is unbalanced, so you trade Buddy, who brings a lot of warts with his sometimes elite, sometimes horrible streaky 3pt shooting.
I want to see the three headed monster of Fox/Hali/DM play at least half a season before we call it a bust. A full season if Luke (hopefully) gets the axe half way through.
a 6’ guard isn’t containing them. That bet is a safer bet than OKC in case you are interested. 
You and others keep saying he wants to be here, as if that's a given if we continue being a losing team for the next two seasons. Again, I'd like to remind the world that we drafted Fox, are paying him a lot of money, and is beloved by fans as the supposed saviour and leader of the franchise. He literally can do no wrong in the eyes of most fans - anything bad we just blame Monte, Vivek, Bagley, Walton, Buddy etc. Of course he says he wants to be here for now!
25/7 means a lot less on a sub .500 team. Somebody's got to put up those numbers, especially when our game scores typically run above 110, and Fox's usage isn't exactly low. You also know that Simmons' primary calling card is his defense and playmaking, so it's pretty insincere to just compare their scoring numbers and conclude Fox is better. Again, how do you know Fox is going to keep improving? Is he going to improve every year indefinitely? He's only a year younger than Simmons. Hey, you may be proven absolutely right, but to act like it's a no brainer that Fox >>>>> Simmons is complete hogwash.
If we could swing Buddy for some superstar that's be great, but let's be real that ain't happening.
25/7 means a lot less on a sub .500 team. Somebody's got to put up those numbers, especially when our game scores typically run above 110, and Fox's usage isn't exactly low. You also know that Simmons' primary calling card is his defense and playmaking, so it's pretty insincere to just compare their scoring numbers and conclude Fox is better. Again, how do you know Fox is going to keep improving? Is he going to improve every year indefinitely? He's only a year younger than Simmons. Hey, you may be proven absolutely right, but to act like it's a no brainer that Fox >>>>> Simmons is complete hogwash.
If we could swing Buddy for some superstar that's be great, but let's be real that ain't happening.
Last edited:
Perfect post. The excuse of "Well he can go post him up!" is actually a win for the defense. Post shots for basically everyone not named Jokic and Embiid are bad shots. You want teams taking them. The priority of an NBA defense is working to shut down the elite PnR creators who either get to the rim and finish, get to the foul line, or kick out to elite open shooters. That's more or less the modern NBA offense.
Btw, I'm not suggesting the primary use for Mitchell should be for him to go defend 3's. I want him on the Dame's, Bookers, CJ, CP3, Beal type of elite offensive guards. But to suggest he can't in the modern NBA is foolish and there's very few match-ups where I'd shy away from him defending up a position.
The other thing is that you don't need Mitchell giving you 30 minutes at the 3. You probably need him giving you 8-12 so that you can run some lineups with Mitchell/Fox/Hali. But for the most part, Mitchell will be playing with Fox or Hali, not both. In the future (post-Buddy) I think you are building toward this:
PG- Fox (32) Mitchell (16)
SG- Hali (32) Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
SF- Mystery Wing (32), Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
PF- Barnes (32) Stretch 4/maybe Metu (16)
C- Holmes (32) second defensive big (16)
I list Mitchell with 8 minutes at SG and 8 at SF, because I think you will want to find time with all three guards on the court (probably closing time), but again, I think most time is two of the 3 small guards, not all 3. How good this team is depends on the ceiling of Fox, Hali, and Mitchell, and who that mystery SF is. If we can't trade Buddy, I am guessing he slots in to the 32 SF minutes, at least until we can trade for/draft that position.
But that breaks down at Fox (32), Hali (32), Mitchell (32), SF (32), Barnes (32) and Holmes (32). 6 main guys, plus three more main rotation pieces - Davis (16), Metu (16), backup C (16) - for a regular 9 man rotation.
PG- Fox (32) Mitchell (16)
SG- Hali (32) Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
SF- Mystery Wing (32), Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
PF- Barnes (32) Stretch 4/maybe Metu (16)
C- Holmes (32) second defensive big (16)
I list Mitchell with 8 minutes at SG and 8 at SF, because I think you will want to find time with all three guards on the court (probably closing time), but again, I think most time is two of the 3 small guards, not all 3. How good this team is depends on the ceiling of Fox, Hali, and Mitchell, and who that mystery SF is. If we can't trade Buddy, I am guessing he slots in to the 32 SF minutes, at least until we can trade for/draft that position.
But that breaks down at Fox (32), Hali (32), Mitchell (32), SF (32), Barnes (32) and Holmes (32). 6 main guys, plus three more main rotation pieces - Davis (16), Metu (16), backup C (16) - for a regular 9 man rotation.