Guard glut
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
Honestly- I think moving Buddy is addition by subtraction. I’d move him for a draft pick and young player. I know he is an elite shooter, but there just doesn’t seem to be a strong market for him. I think people know his limitations and are not throwing huge packages to get an elite shooter who is a bad defender and sometimes tries to do too much on offense. I think there is a place for him as a catch and shoot starter on a good defensive team (like Redick used to do, or the role Monk is playing in LA) or a sixth man type microwave scorer. But you aren’t going to get a huge package for that- teams will either try to draft it or sign it for less in free agency.
I mean, we know the market for him. Unless Monte “had a better deal a few days ago,” we know the type of offer for him was Kuzma, Harrell, and a mid/late first. So a non-premium young guy, a non-premium first, and a vet to match salaries and maybe play a role as a short term rotation piece. It also seems like we haven’t got much traction with Buddy as a centerpiece with Bagley and picks for Siakam, Simmons, Ingram, Or Tobias type players.
Personally, I’d hold Buddy and Bagley for now to see if Toronto, NO, or Philly gets desperate and takes those deals. If not, I’d trade Buddy for a first and young guy, and some salary that matched. The Pellies make a lot of sense- try to slide Buddy into their Trade Exception, get a mid first round pick, and maybe a young guy or other useful piece (like Hart).
I know Buddy might make that trade look foolish if he blows up, but I think Buddy is what he is. There is a risk the trade looks bad because Buddy could put up huge points on the surface, but he is giving up the same or more on the other end, and he just isn’t a fit here.
I mean, we know the market for him. Unless Monte “had a better deal a few days ago,” we know the type of offer for him was Kuzma, Harrell, and a mid/late first. So a non-premium young guy, a non-premium first, and a vet to match salaries and maybe play a role as a short term rotation piece. It also seems like we haven’t got much traction with Buddy as a centerpiece with Bagley and picks for Siakam, Simmons, Ingram, Or Tobias type players.
Personally, I’d hold Buddy and Bagley for now to see if Toronto, NO, or Philly gets desperate and takes those deals. If not, I’d trade Buddy for a first and young guy, and some salary that matched. The Pellies make a lot of sense- try to slide Buddy into their Trade Exception, get a mid first round pick, and maybe a young guy or other useful piece (like Hart).
I know Buddy might make that trade look foolish if he blows up, but I think Buddy is what he is. There is a risk the trade looks bad because Buddy could put up huge points on the surface, but he is giving up the same or more on the other end, and he just isn’t a fit here.
I like Buddy, but I would choose to trade him over the others.
I would love to see Myles Turner on the back line protecting the paint with someone like Davion Mitchell hounding people on the perimeter. I'd target him or Tobias Harris first, and then move on from there. I agree with rain man that there is no rush to trade anyone. Maybe some teams will be willing to include different players in a trade around the trade deadline once it's clear what the actual needs are for each team.
edit: Siakam would be cool too
I would love to see Myles Turner on the back line protecting the paint with someone like Davion Mitchell hounding people on the perimeter. I'd target him or Tobias Harris first, and then move on from there. I agree with rain man that there is no rush to trade anyone. Maybe some teams will be willing to include different players in a trade around the trade deadline once it's clear what the actual needs are for each team.
edit: Siakam would be cool too
Neither will Davis or Ramsey. So unless you're willing to trade Fox or Hali, I don't think you're going to get a quality wing in exchange for any of our guards. This is assuming they're not willing to trade Mitchell yet.
Hield is the most likely to be traded for obvious reasons, and the player most will see as the odd man out.
Hield is the most likely to be traded for obvious reasons, and the player most will see as the odd man out.
I hate to lose Buddy Hield from the standpoint that he brings something different to the table than any of the other guards. Elite shooting.
Tyrese brings length and playmaking.
Swipa brings quickness, speed and an elite ability to penetrate.
Mitchell brings defensive toughness and quickness on both sides of the ball.
Buddy should be able to fit in and co-exist because of the differences.
However his ballhandling, often poor BBIQ, defense, contract and general attitude are certainly negatives.
There’s no argument, though, that Buddy works hard on his game and is always available to play. Those attributes are valuable too. Which is why I often feel conflicted about Buddy and the idea of trading him away.
Tyrese brings length and playmaking.
Swipa brings quickness, speed and an elite ability to penetrate.
Mitchell brings defensive toughness and quickness on both sides of the ball.
Buddy should be able to fit in and co-exist because of the differences.
However his ballhandling, often poor BBIQ, defense, contract and general attitude are certainly negatives.
There’s no argument, though, that Buddy works hard on his game and is always available to play. Those attributes are valuable too. Which is why I often feel conflicted about Buddy and the idea of trading him away.
Lots of dreaming on this thread and Buddy would not bring Kuzma, Harrell and a late first. I was told while the trade was in play that Monte was being used and the Lakers had other targets. Like you I argued otherwise and was proven wrong.
Hield has a skill for which we don’t have much overlap. Bogi was that overlap and we let him walk for nothing. The main overlap now is Fox/Mitchell
Hield has a skill for which we don’t have much overlap. Bogi was that overlap and we let him walk for nothing. The main overlap now is Fox/Mitchell
I don't really see the need to dump Buddy if he can't give us an equal asset in return. Having Buddy on this team is more valuable than not having him (say we dump him for a pick).
Here's what I think the rotation looks like at the moment:
Fox/Mitchell
Haliburton/Buddy
Harkless/Jones
Barnes/Bagley
Holmes/Thompson/Len
It's probably a bit different, but finding minutes for those 4-5 guards is definitely doable. And as someone said, Buddy brings 3pt shooting. He's the best shooter on the team.
Here's what I think the rotation looks like at the moment:
Fox/Mitchell
Haliburton/Buddy
Harkless/Jones
Barnes/Bagley
Holmes/Thompson/Len
It's probably a bit different, but finding minutes for those 4-5 guards is definitely doable. And as someone said, Buddy brings 3pt shooting. He's the best shooter on the team.
In principle, I'm willing to trade anybody depending on whom they might bring back. In practice, trading Fox or Haliburton would hurt my heart - and already it would pain me to trade Mitchell. I'm a huge believer not only in his individual value on-court, but also in the likelihood that his example will ripple thru the rest of the backcourt and the team as a whole. I'd hate not to see that play out in Sacramento.
That said, I think it's silly to designate "untouchables" on a team with zero all-Stars and the Kings' record of futility. I wouldn't aggressively shop Fox/Haliburton/Mitchell, but I'd certainly listen to offers. They're the guards (we suppose) GMs across the guys might be willing to give something valuable to get. If I can get Siakam, Harris, etc. with a combo package of Buddy/Bags/etc, awesome. More likely, you gotta give more than that. (And I don't like the idea of packaging multiple years of 1st-round picks. Yeah, no guarantee of success. But they're the only way to get cheap, rotation-level talent.)
Assume Siakam can get fully healthy again. A Fox-for-Siakam trade would still leave the Kings with a strong backcourt rotation, while adding real juice to the wing position. Mitchell/Haliburton/(healthy) Siakam/Barnes/Holmes > Fox/Haliburton/Metu (or Harkless)/Barnes/Holmes. Both versions would have strong, deep benches.
So, yeah, I'd be willing to trade any of them. In principle.
That said, I think it's silly to designate "untouchables" on a team with zero all-Stars and the Kings' record of futility. I wouldn't aggressively shop Fox/Haliburton/Mitchell, but I'd certainly listen to offers. They're the guards (we suppose) GMs across the guys might be willing to give something valuable to get. If I can get Siakam, Harris, etc. with a combo package of Buddy/Bags/etc, awesome. More likely, you gotta give more than that. (And I don't like the idea of packaging multiple years of 1st-round picks. Yeah, no guarantee of success. But they're the only way to get cheap, rotation-level talent.)
Assume Siakam can get fully healthy again. A Fox-for-Siakam trade would still leave the Kings with a strong backcourt rotation, while adding real juice to the wing position. Mitchell/Haliburton/(healthy) Siakam/Barnes/Holmes > Fox/Haliburton/Metu (or Harkless)/Barnes/Holmes. Both versions would have strong, deep benches.
So, yeah, I'd be willing to trade any of them. In principle.
Trade Buddy is a must given his contract. I'd be more than confident you basically can replace most if not all his impact with T Davis/Ramsey for a fraction of the cost. After you deal him though, I don't think it's really a roster glut. Ramsey should spend most of the year in the G-League, getting reps as a lead offensive option and hopefully continuing to show his on-ball scoring skills like he has the during summer league. And the plan is obviously to play quite a few 3-guard lineups, so you should be able to find time for a 5-guard roster.
I know it's the TDOS, and I don't want to play spoil sport (guess I am anyway), but let's wait for some of the kids to see real game action before trading away the vets.
Ramsey is 20 years old, and completely unproven on the big stage. He has had a few good summer league games, and that's really nice. However, too early to treat him as a rotational player. Hopefully, that changes by the break next year.
Davion looks really legit, and if he can force some of our vets to play defense, he impacts the team positively before even setting foot on the court. That said, he's a rookie, and rookies struggle out of the gate. Not to mention that we still have to see how much freedom will he be allowed by the refs, particularly in the early part of his career.
That still leaves us with a bit of a glut, while at the same time being thin on the wings. 3 guard lineups might be a plan, but certainly has its challenges on the defensive end. Trading Buddy seems the most logical choice, but he does provide the spacing the team otherwise lacks. Also, while it's fine in theory to replace him with a wing, we have to see what's available, and if the deal makes sense long term. Given his salary, if we take multiple players back, they are just going to sit (or make someone else we are hoping will see minutes warm the bench). We may be able to combine Buddy and Bagley to get a star, but we will likely be selling low on both (particularly Bagley). This of course assumes that Bagley is healthy, plays well this year, and ups his value. If that happens, lots of problems will be solved.
Ramsey is 20 years old, and completely unproven on the big stage. He has had a few good summer league games, and that's really nice. However, too early to treat him as a rotational player. Hopefully, that changes by the break next year.
Davion looks really legit, and if he can force some of our vets to play defense, he impacts the team positively before even setting foot on the court. That said, he's a rookie, and rookies struggle out of the gate. Not to mention that we still have to see how much freedom will he be allowed by the refs, particularly in the early part of his career.
That still leaves us with a bit of a glut, while at the same time being thin on the wings. 3 guard lineups might be a plan, but certainly has its challenges on the defensive end. Trading Buddy seems the most logical choice, but he does provide the spacing the team otherwise lacks. Also, while it's fine in theory to replace him with a wing, we have to see what's available, and if the deal makes sense long term. Given his salary, if we take multiple players back, they are just going to sit (or make someone else we are hoping will see minutes warm the bench). We may be able to combine Buddy and Bagley to get a star, but we will likely be selling low on both (particularly Bagley). This of course assumes that Bagley is healthy, plays well this year, and ups his value. If that happens, lots of problems will be solved.
Trading Buddy is not easy due to his contract.
I think he has value around the league, but he also has limitations. That limits what we can get for him. If we are willing to settle for some young wing who has promise, we might be able to trade him. Matching salaries becomes a challenge then though.We will likely need to take back some players who are unlikely to see much time. Is it really worth replacing Buddy with some player who might be worse? Tough to say without seeing the deal, but Buddy is a hard worker, and has an in-demand skill. If we get a legit 3, it will make the roster more balanced though.
It's possible we save on some long term salary, but given his declining salary, it might be easier to trade him next year. Unless a clearly better deal is available, I'm find with holding on to him. We are already having second thoughts about trading away a guard.
I think he has value around the league, but he also has limitations. That limits what we can get for him. If we are willing to settle for some young wing who has promise, we might be able to trade him. Matching salaries becomes a challenge then though.We will likely need to take back some players who are unlikely to see much time. Is it really worth replacing Buddy with some player who might be worse? Tough to say without seeing the deal, but Buddy is a hard worker, and has an in-demand skill. If we get a legit 3, it will make the roster more balanced though.
It's possible we save on some long term salary, but given his declining salary, it might be easier to trade him next year. Unless a clearly better deal is available, I'm find with holding on to him. We are already having second thoughts about trading away a guard.
Once again people putting Mitchell in the Hall of Fame before he's even played a single minute in the NBA. He's not going to be starting or he should be. Let see how he does against real NBA point guards running an offense.
I'm glad Ramsey has started to show something, but lets not forget it's taken him a long to just do that. He's not ready for consistent NBA minutes, still has a long way to go.
It's also better to have a minutes problem than be giving minutes to players who shouldn't even be on the roster.
I'm glad Ramsey has started to show something, but lets not forget it's taken him a long to just do that. He's not ready for consistent NBA minutes, still has a long way to go.
It's also better to have a minutes problem than be giving minutes to players who shouldn't even be on the roster.
Buddy in a very defined role on offense can be valuable. Just don't let him dribble or try to make decisions with the ball. He's just not very good at that.
On Defense hopefully having Davion on the team and Christie as coach can make him more valuable.
And hopefully he can be humble and accept a role off the bench. He's in no position to demand a starting spot.
I agree probably not going to get great value for him in isolation at this point.
On Defense hopefully having Davion on the team and Christie as coach can make him more valuable.
And hopefully he can be humble and accept a role off the bench. He's in no position to demand a starting spot.
I agree probably not going to get great value for him in isolation at this point.
I recon we are finally developing a personality and that’s of a fast and tough defensive team. As much as I’d like to trade Buddy and Bagley for someone such as Siakam, it’s probably not happening so let the pieces we have show if they belong this season and go from there. No knee jerk moves that likely wont move the needle.
Metu’s évolution is encouraging, I wouldn’t be surprised if he surpasses Bagley on the depth chart soon.
Metu’s évolution is encouraging, I wouldn’t be surprised if he surpasses Bagley on the depth chart soon.
Honestly it's getting a little too late now, I think the odds of this team coming in as is are inevitable and as a result they need to go all in with the guard ball. Don't just be talking to get the media and those paying attention off your back about another roster without much balance on paper. Buddy at SF/PF, good, go with it for decent minutes each game. Mitchell/Fox/Haliburton/Buddy/Holmes. It's got to be done at this point. Monte used the tag that Mitchell can guard 4 positions to make this all work so don't make this Bagley at SF and Nik Rocks can play PG BS where you never find a way to truly fit them in. Who knows, it might work as a gimmick and even if it doesn't productivity between all these pieces should be able to be maintained so that when teams are willing to deal around winter time or the deadline you can still make sense of it.
The only way Walton and Monte can truly screw this up is if they put Buddy in another circumstance where it's him or someone else like they did with Bogdan which does nothing but sink the values of all pieces involved. Metu has looked good, Thompson is solid, however they can't let that signal doom for Bagley otherwise the end result is they are on the cusp of pulling a Papa G on a number 2 pick. That's not going to look good. Build him up or see if he can finally get it and then create space for people like Metu/Queta after the fact. They can wait and with their contracts you're just showcasing them for other teams at a certain point. Metu has been around already. Don't try and turn him into a poor mans Siakam. Nobody will trade for him and will just poach him if they really want him.
The only way Walton and Monte can truly screw this up is if they put Buddy in another circumstance where it's him or someone else like they did with Bogdan which does nothing but sink the values of all pieces involved. Metu has looked good, Thompson is solid, however they can't let that signal doom for Bagley otherwise the end result is they are on the cusp of pulling a Papa G on a number 2 pick. That's not going to look good. Build him up or see if he can finally get it and then create space for people like Metu/Queta after the fact. They can wait and with their contracts you're just showcasing them for other teams at a certain point. Metu has been around already. Don't try and turn him into a poor mans Siakam. Nobody will trade for him and will just poach him if they really want him.
Yeah I don’t typically base things off summer league but a lot of what Mitchell does will translate. Heck I hated the pick. I was told Mitchell might be the second best defensive guard in the NBA right now. I do think we have a lot of overlap between Fox and Mitchell.
if it were available I would trade Fox for Simmons straight up and roll with
Normal:
Holmes, Thompson, Len
Barnes, Bagley, Metu
Simmons, Harkless, King
Haliburton, Buddy, Ramsey
Mitchell, Davis
Small ball:
Simmons (small ball 5)
Barnes
Buddy
Haliburton
Davis
if it were available I would trade Fox for Simmons straight up and roll with
Normal:
Holmes, Thompson, Len
Barnes, Bagley, Metu
Simmons, Harkless, King
Haliburton, Buddy, Ramsey
Mitchell, Davis
Small ball:
Simmons (small ball 5)
Barnes
Buddy
Haliburton
Davis
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I don't remember seeing anyone saying Mitchell wasn't a talent for sure, but if bringing Mitchell in eventually spells the doom of one of he, Fox, or Haliburton, that's going to hurt a bit. If it works? Great, but we need to see all 3 together, there is no avoiding it. If they all prove to be valuable, or live up to their billings but one is destined to be a 6th man because of need and roster consctruction then they need to be proactive about it and not just wait for rookie deals to fall of the books while a huge market and a starting position on another team awaits.
Jumping the gun on wanting to trade guys.
Need to see Mitchell against NBA guys
Need to see what type of jump Haliburton makes.
Need to see if Fox becomes the type of defensive guy he is capable of being.
Need to see all 3 play together or staggered with the 3 guard lineups and how effective it is.
I for one am not so ready to deal a guy who just averaged …what was it 25 and 7/8 and who was one of the best 4th quarter scorers.
Need to see Mitchell against NBA guys
Need to see what type of jump Haliburton makes.
Need to see if Fox becomes the type of defensive guy he is capable of being.
Need to see all 3 play together or staggered with the 3 guard lineups and how effective it is.
I for one am not so ready to deal a guy who just averaged …what was it 25 and 7/8 and who was one of the best 4th quarter scorers.