Free Agency
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I feel San Antonio is a declining team built around declining players. They finished one game better than the Kings last season despite all our injuries. I think comparatively the Kings are a team more trending upwards than San Antonio and on paper I like our roster better. I believe SA will be worse than they were last season.
I disagree on Memphis. They were a surprise last season but the Kings were better head to head(3-1)and have a deeper roster. Fox and Ja might have similar games but I believe we have the superior version.
In regards to those two teams I have little doubt that if the Kings hadn’t had the injuries they had in the pre-covid last season they would’ve finished better than both of them leaving no question. I think people are ignoring the injuries too much.
Minnesota is very thin everywhere except Towns and the combo guard position. I’m also unsure about Russell’s ability to play effectively(or allow others to play effectively) with other ball handlers so I’m not sure if Rubio will be a compliment like he was for Utah and Phoenix, or just a back up. I’m not a big fan of Russell and I’m not sure if either Russell or Towns make their teammates better..and Minnesota needs their stars to make the other guys better because quite frankly the other guys suck. Minnesota has virtually nothing at the 3-4 and almost no depth as well. I’d expect them to be sellers of Towns and Russell at some point next season and the Kings to be better.
I think Phoenix was bubble fools gold, they had a huge streak and still finished behind the Kings who were especially bad in the bubble...and while Paul makes them better I’m not ready to automatically put them as better than the Kings. New Orleans is the same though they have the grass is greener on the other side young core. I don’t think they are ready for a major improvement.
Portland you may be right. I wasn’t considering Nurkic and Collins to be honest but I also think the Lillard-CJ core is a spent force that has been more or less scouted and figured out to where they won’t run away from the rest of the pack..but the Kings would have to make significant leaps at certain positions to be better than them overall.
I’m also considering about 6-7 East teams the Kings will finish better than.
The point of my initial post is the Kings aren’t poised to be in play for a top 3 pick and it doesn’t appear they are blowing up what is atleast a 30 win team at worst. Last season was about the worst I’d expect from the roster.
Again, I’m not arguing whether the Kings should or shouldn’t blow it up and aim for draft position. I’d prefer for a bad team to be bad enough to have high draft picks than bad enough to miss the playoffs every year..but it looks to me like the Kings believe they have a team that’s just outside of the playoff picture that have core pieces that are still improving, haven’t peaked, and can be built upon.
I don’t think they are terribly off base but we shall see. I do think we’re a little jaded over here and tend to undervalue our players and overvalue others that are in the same positions like Phoenix, New Orleans, and Memphis. Not that there isn’t good reason for that.
I disagree on Memphis. They were a surprise last season but the Kings were better head to head(3-1)and have a deeper roster. Fox and Ja might have similar games but I believe we have the superior version.
In regards to those two teams I have little doubt that if the Kings hadn’t had the injuries they had in the pre-covid last season they would’ve finished better than both of them leaving no question. I think people are ignoring the injuries too much.
Minnesota is very thin everywhere except Towns and the combo guard position. I’m also unsure about Russell’s ability to play effectively(or allow others to play effectively) with other ball handlers so I’m not sure if Rubio will be a compliment like he was for Utah and Phoenix, or just a back up. I’m not a big fan of Russell and I’m not sure if either Russell or Towns make their teammates better..and Minnesota needs their stars to make the other guys better because quite frankly the other guys suck. Minnesota has virtually nothing at the 3-4 and almost no depth as well. I’d expect them to be sellers of Towns and Russell at some point next season and the Kings to be better.
I think Phoenix was bubble fools gold, they had a huge streak and still finished behind the Kings who were especially bad in the bubble...and while Paul makes them better I’m not ready to automatically put them as better than the Kings. New Orleans is the same though they have the grass is greener on the other side young core. I don’t think they are ready for a major improvement.
Portland you may be right. I wasn’t considering Nurkic and Collins to be honest but I also think the Lillard-CJ core is a spent force that has been more or less scouted and figured out to where they won’t run away from the rest of the pack..but the Kings would have to make significant leaps at certain positions to be better than them overall.
I’m also considering about 6-7 East teams the Kings will finish better than.
The point of my initial post is the Kings aren’t poised to be in play for a top 3 pick and it doesn’t appear they are blowing up what is atleast a 30 win team at worst. Last season was about the worst I’d expect from the roster.
Again, I’m not arguing whether the Kings should or shouldn’t blow it up and aim for draft position. I’d prefer for a bad team to be bad enough to have high draft picks than bad enough to miss the playoffs every year..but it looks to me like the Kings believe they have a team that’s just outside of the playoff picture that have core pieces that are still improving, haven’t peaked, and can be built upon.
I don’t think they are terribly off base but we shall see. I do think we’re a little jaded over here and tend to undervalue our players and overvalue others that are in the same positions like Phoenix, New Orleans, and Memphis. Not that there isn’t good reason for that.
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I have to wonder if this whole debacle will impact how teams value Bogi. While we still don’t know the whole story, it looks at face value that he forced himself to a bad team for more money and a bigger role. Part of the narrative before was “he’s a proven winner stuck in Sacramento.” What is it now?
i think there’s still that chance we’d be able to move him but over the last week the downside went up pretty substantially. I think if we let him go and showcase Buddy, he’s ultimately worth a lot more in a future trade and we already have him under contract
i think there’s still that chance we’d be able to move him but over the last week the downside went up pretty substantially. I think if we let him go and showcase Buddy, he’s ultimately worth a lot more in a future trade and we already have him under contract
With Bogdan and wether to match or not, it comes down to this: ask around the league how much interest there would be at the trade deadline for him with his trade kicker. If there is none, let him go. If there is something and you have a gentlemans agreement that you will get something of value for him, then match.
This discussion on our strategy is an interesting topic and probably warrants its own place other than this free agency topic. Since there isnt one (and this post can be moved in there if its created) I will ask what is the probable route for this team to become a legit contender? How will it happen without cap space, without valuable trade assets and zero additional 1st round picks?
Its very hard for me to imagine even slightly realistic path for that to happen so why not start over? Clear the cap, gain future assets by dealing your vets that are tradeable and take bad contracts for future assets. I've been heavely recomending that for over three seasons but we've never done it, we,ve never truly rebuilt. Its a tough three years to go over a real rebuild but if it were started 2017 when there wasnt a real chance for us to compete, it would be pretty much over by now or at least we would be lot more flexible with our talent being much younger and cheaper.
Here is a discussion about this subject from three years ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/rebuild-strategy-or-we-want-lins.68592/
There is 20 pages of discussion in there. I would suggest that we dont do the same mistake as three years ago and pretend that there is more value to battle for the seeds 8-12 rather than securing top draft pick and gaining future assets. Especially since we are now in a situation where our franchise player is already extended so we dont need to worry about him leaving (without hefty compensation) and since we really need another star level player in order to truly compete.
This discussion on our strategy is an interesting topic and probably warrants its own place other than this free agency topic. Since there isnt one (and this post can be moved in there if its created) I will ask what is the probable route for this team to become a legit contender? How will it happen without cap space, without valuable trade assets and zero additional 1st round picks?
Its very hard for me to imagine even slightly realistic path for that to happen so why not start over? Clear the cap, gain future assets by dealing your vets that are tradeable and take bad contracts for future assets. I've been heavely recomending that for over three seasons but we've never done it, we,ve never truly rebuilt. Its a tough three years to go over a real rebuild but if it were started 2017 when there wasnt a real chance for us to compete, it would be pretty much over by now or at least we would be lot more flexible with our talent being much younger and cheaper.
Here is a discussion about this subject from three years ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/rebuild-strategy-or-we-want-lins.68592/
There is 20 pages of discussion in there. I would suggest that we dont do the same mistake as three years ago and pretend that there is more value to battle for the seeds 8-12 rather than securing top draft pick and gaining future assets. Especially since we are now in a situation where our franchise player is already extended so we dont need to worry about him leaving (without hefty compensation) and since we really need another star level player in order to truly compete.
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Lots to respond to here... lol.
San Antonio - they have a nice young back court and a decent wing in Vassell. It’s close but our main injury was Bagley which likely helped us not hurt us.
Memphis was more injured than we were with players that actually make a difference. It’s hard to say if they will be healthy this year. If they have JJJ and Winslow they are the better team.
Pheonix is better than us at almost every position.
Paul is better than Fox this year
Booker is better than Buddy
Maybe a push Bridges and Barnes
Maybe a push Beli and whomever they play there
Ayton is better than Holmes.
As for the East teams they get to play each other while we play in a loaded west. That likely pushes us down a few notches. We lost Bazemore who helped quite a bit. We may not win more than a couple games in division.
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San Antonio - they have a nice young back court and a decent wing in Vassell. It’s close but our main injury was Bagley which likely helped us not hurt us.
Memphis was more injured than we were with players that actually make a difference. It’s hard to say if they will be healthy this year. If they have JJJ and Winslow they are the better team.
Pheonix is better than us at almost every position.
Paul is better than Fox this year
Booker is better than Buddy
Maybe a push Bridges and Barnes
Maybe a push Beli and whomever they play there
Ayton is better than Holmes.
As for the East teams they get to play each other while we play in a loaded west. That likely pushes us down a few notches. We lost Bazemore who helped quite a bit. We may not win more than a couple games in division.
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Buddy is best used off the ball. Spot him up and catch and shoot. Do that and he's a PERFECT compliment to both Fox and Haliburton. In fact, with both Fox and Haliburton if Walton runs Buddy at PG again then one thing positive will at least be Walton hitting the bricks likely within the first 10 games or so. Waltons mistake was running to much horns and motion. Spread the freaking floor 4-5 out and hit you drive and dish game.
Lol, those poll results. It really is a testament to how jaded this fanbase has become in three years, maybe 2015-2018 was the whole honeymoon phase of having a Kings legend as a GM with a lot of blind confidence.
Then he gave out atrocious contracts, refused to take on any extra draft capital (this isn't just there being none available, Vlade's MO was an abject REFUSAL to take on bad contracts for pick or tank, instead valuing veteran mentorship and culture), had this groundless bravado about his rebuilding strategy, got bailed out by lottery luck, and then sqaundered it anyway. Hopefully we've all had our fill of that.
The only real solace I can take is to be a snarky, insufferable, "I told you so" know-it-all but I'd rather us be on a non-disaster path.
Then he gave out atrocious contracts, refused to take on any extra draft capital (this isn't just there being none available, Vlade's MO was an abject REFUSAL to take on bad contracts for pick or tank, instead valuing veteran mentorship and culture), had this groundless bravado about his rebuilding strategy, got bailed out by lottery luck, and then sqaundered it anyway. Hopefully we've all had our fill of that.
The only real solace I can take is to be a snarky, insufferable, "I told you so" know-it-all but I'd rather us be on a non-disaster path.
I brought it up consistently during last year as it was happening within the game threads. Beyond Waltons misuse of having him as a lead ball handler, the entire opposing defense was focused on Buddy most of the time. If you watched it almost every team without fail weighted their defense towards the side of the floor Buddy was on. They even doubled him frequently which put him in a terrible spot that Walton never helped him out of by putting him in more catch and shoot situations and especially spot up. There was also way too much off screen sets for him that just ended up clogging the paint for Fox. I rarely saw the opposing defense in a position to stop Bogdan. Rarely if ever. Those are two different worlds of respect there.
Who knows, it's all up to the coach and the ownership. Lesson 1 of 1: When coach goes back to old habits ownership must put coach on plane out of town.
This has never been a question of talent or need. This team has pieces that actually fit in terms of skill also. So if Walton plays to his players strengths and the players can come in with a start over mentality while remaining healthy then there is no reason this team can't be dangerous and make noise this year.
This has never been a question of talent or need. This team has pieces that actually fit in terms of skill also. So if Walton plays to his players strengths and the players can come in with a start over mentality while remaining healthy then there is no reason this team can't be dangerous and make noise this year.
I’d get onboard with a full tank rebuild if there were examples of small market teams doing that and seeing it work. Spurs are the only small market franchise I can think of that won championships. And they had success prior to Duncan and a great coach. Toronto, Utah etc may be examples of franchises with success but they didn’t get there thru tanking and top 5 picks.
Rivers to NY
I like this idea:
Yossi Gozlan @YoggiMane
If the Kings match Bogi's offer sheet, the Hawks will have $19M in cap space in a market all but dried up of really good players. How would use their cap space? @John Hollinger suggests a Hield for Snell trade. Hawks probably have to send more back, but I love the framework. pic.twitter.com/J22xAGtqX9
I like this idea:
Yossi Gozlan @YoggiMane
If the Kings match Bogi's offer sheet, the Hawks will have $19M in cap space in a market all but dried up of really good players. How would use their cap space? @John Hollinger suggests a Hield for Snell trade. Hawks probably have to send more back, but I love the framework. pic.twitter.com/J22xAGtqX9
small market teams get better by smartly using draft picks. See OKC. They are the model.
But that means using your cap space to get picks and trading valuable assets...
so what do we have.
expiring contracts:
Bjelicia
CoJo
Jabari Parker
Richaun Holmes.
Bagley ( if we decline his option)
assets
None
their is only so much open cap space you can have.
But that means using your cap space to get picks and trading valuable assets...
so what do we have.
expiring contracts:
Bjelicia
CoJo
Jabari Parker
Richaun Holmes.
Bagley ( if we decline his option)
assets
None
their is only so much open cap space you can have.
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Fox missed 21 games. That’s significant when we’re talking about a separation of 1-4 games. Holmes missed 28. Bogdan missed 11. Bagley virtually the entire season. A lot of games they were all gone at the same time. Bazemore was a plus but he also only played 25 games with the team. It wasn’t just one guy at a time and who’s injuries are more significant to whom is debatable but not easily measurable. As for the Spurs, Grizzlies, and Suns. I just disagree..especially in regards to the Spurs and Memphis but we’ll see how it plays out.
Looking at the Kings though, injuries were a major setback for them but they still finished with 31 wins. They still finished with only the 12th pick. Im sticking to this belief, especially if Bogdan is retained... and sans a major roster overhaul aimed at tanking the next season..,they will not be in play for a top 3 pick...but don’t worry, if I’m right, I likely won’t feel like it’s anything worth gloating about unless they way exceed my own expectations.
Looking at the Kings though, injuries were a major setback for them but they still finished with 31 wins. They still finished with only the 12th pick. Im sticking to this belief, especially if Bogdan is retained... and sans a major roster overhaul aimed at tanking the next season..,they will not be in play for a top 3 pick...but don’t worry, if I’m right, I likely won’t feel like it’s anything worth gloating about unless they way exceed my own expectations.
I believe this team has good pieces but has consistently missed opportunities to get over the top.
I'm willing to give a pass for the first few moves to clean up the mess left from the two weasels that preceded Vlade, but starting with the trade of the 10th pick in 2017, the whatever psyche out move that lead to Bagley over Luka (this could still at least net us a good player, and Bagley doesn't deserve remotely the pile on he gets), and whatever the hell happened between Vlade, Williams and Joerger that lead to all of them sent packing, we are certainly in another rebuild. And it's a great time for it. The key now is getting out of our bad investments with as little pain as possible and investing in our young players and hopefully a top 5 pick next year.
I'm willing to give a pass for the first few moves to clean up the mess left from the two weasels that preceded Vlade, but starting with the trade of the 10th pick in 2017, the whatever psyche out move that lead to Bagley over Luka (this could still at least net us a good player, and Bagley doesn't deserve remotely the pile on he gets), and whatever the hell happened between Vlade, Williams and Joerger that lead to all of them sent packing, we are certainly in another rebuild. And it's a great time for it. The key now is getting out of our bad investments with as little pain as possible and investing in our young players and hopefully a top 5 pick next year.
If the Kings match on Bogi, a real possibility, ATL will have to give the Kings a lot more than Snell for Buddy.
Now that they have made McNair and the Kings mad, I would demand one of their young swing players (Hunter, Huerter or Reddish) and a first round pick for Buddy.
Who knows, this may have been ATL end game all along, to get Buddy to be the running mate for Trae Young.
Now that they have made McNair and the Kings mad, I would demand one of their young swing players (Hunter, Huerter or Reddish) and a first round pick for Buddy.
Who knows, this may have been ATL end game all along, to get Buddy to be the running mate for Trae Young.
It's fun to be a contrarian, but sometimes a little feedback on when you've gone over the edge is useful.
You've gone over the edge with regards to Bagley. He is an already-good player with star potential who when healthy makes our team better, not worse. There is no "decision" about whether to pick up his fourth-year option. Not only will we pick it up, we would chase after it into moving traffic like it was a $100 bill blowing in the wind.
You've gone over the edge with regards to Bagley. He is an already-good player with star potential who when healthy makes our team better, not worse. There is no "decision" about whether to pick up his fourth-year option. Not only will we pick it up, we would chase after it into moving traffic like it was a $100 bill blowing in the wind.