Free Agency

He is but unlike most other coaches, he appears to be like an NFL coach in that he has coordinators to run his offensive and defensive schemes. Last year it was Igor and Bob Beyer. This year, Gentry and Rex. Luke is in charge of the rotations and the like which isn’t exactly a shining endorsement of him.
I've got Gentry as a 90% to be our new head coach after this season. Much less though for an in season firing.
 
paragraphs my friend..

San Antonio’s guards played well and Vassell was both a good player and a good fit for them. San Antonio also has Pop who is worth a few wins. Given they beat us in the bubble not sure how you feel they are clearly better.

Minnesota has a top 5 center, Russell backed up by Rubio, and the number 1 overall pick. They are clearly a toss-up. OKC we agree

I disagree on more talented than Memphis. If JJJ stays healthy he is a very good player and Ja and Fox are similar. Portland signed two wings to go with their other assets and are significantly better than us. Nurkic, Dame and CJ alone put them in a better tier not to mention who they got in free agency.
I feel San Antonio is a declining team built around declining players. They finished one game better than the Kings last season despite all our injuries. I think comparatively the Kings are a team more trending upwards than San Antonio and on paper I like our roster better. I believe SA will be worse than they were last season.

I disagree on Memphis. They were a surprise last season but the Kings were better head to head(3-1)and have a deeper roster. Fox and Ja might have similar games but I believe we have the superior version.

In regards to those two teams I have little doubt that if the Kings hadn’t had the injuries they had in the pre-covid last season they would’ve finished better than both of them leaving no question. I think people are ignoring the injuries too much.

Minnesota is very thin everywhere except Towns and the combo guard position. I’m also unsure about Russell’s ability to play effectively(or allow others to play effectively) with other ball handlers so I’m not sure if Rubio will be a compliment like he was for Utah and Phoenix, or just a back up. I’m not a big fan of Russell and I’m not sure if either Russell or Towns make their teammates better..and Minnesota needs their stars to make the other guys better because quite frankly the other guys suck. Minnesota has virtually nothing at the 3-4 and almost no depth as well. I’d expect them to be sellers of Towns and Russell at some point next season and the Kings to be better.

I think Phoenix was bubble fools gold, they had a huge streak and still finished behind the Kings who were especially bad in the bubble...and while Paul makes them better I’m not ready to automatically put them as better than the Kings. New Orleans is the same though they have the grass is greener on the other side young core. I don’t think they are ready for a major improvement.

Portland you may be right. I wasn’t considering Nurkic and Collins to be honest but I also think the Lillard-CJ core is a spent force that has been more or less scouted and figured out to where they won’t run away from the rest of the pack..but the Kings would have to make significant leaps at certain positions to be better than them overall.

I’m also considering about 6-7 East teams the Kings will finish better than.

The point of my initial post is the Kings aren’t poised to be in play for a top 3 pick and it doesn’t appear they are blowing up what is atleast a 30 win team at worst. Last season was about the worst I’d expect from the roster.

Again, I’m not arguing whether the Kings should or shouldn’t blow it up and aim for draft position. I’d prefer for a bad team to be bad enough to have high draft picks than bad enough to miss the playoffs every year..but it looks to me like the Kings believe they have a team that’s just outside of the playoff picture that have core pieces that are still improving, haven’t peaked, and can be built upon.

I don’t think they are terribly off base but we shall see. I do think we’re a little jaded over here and tend to undervalue our players and overvalue others that are in the same positions like Phoenix, New Orleans, and Memphis. Not that there isn’t good reason for that.
 
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I have to wonder if this whole debacle will impact how teams value Bogi. While we still don’t know the whole story, it looks at face value that he forced himself to a bad team for more money and a bigger role. Part of the narrative before was “he’s a proven winner stuck in Sacramento.” What is it now?

i think there’s still that chance we’d be able to move him but over the last week the downside went up pretty substantially. I think if we let him go and showcase Buddy, he’s ultimately worth a lot more in a future trade and we already have him under contract
 
With Bogdan and wether to match or not, it comes down to this: ask around the league how much interest there would be at the trade deadline for him with his trade kicker. If there is none, let him go. If there is something and you have a gentlemans agreement that you will get something of value for him, then match.

This discussion on our strategy is an interesting topic and probably warrants its own place other than this free agency topic. Since there isnt one (and this post can be moved in there if its created) I will ask what is the probable route for this team to become a legit contender? How will it happen without cap space, without valuable trade assets and zero additional 1st round picks?

Its very hard for me to imagine even slightly realistic path for that to happen so why not start over? Clear the cap, gain future assets by dealing your vets that are tradeable and take bad contracts for future assets. I've been heavely recomending that for over three seasons but we've never done it, we,ve never truly rebuilt. Its a tough three years to go over a real rebuild but if it were started 2017 when there wasnt a real chance for us to compete, it would be pretty much over by now or at least we would be lot more flexible with our talent being much younger and cheaper.

Here is a discussion about this subject from three years ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/rebuild-strategy-or-we-want-lins.68592/
Screenshot_20201122-235020__01.jpg

There is 20 pages of discussion in there. I would suggest that we dont do the same mistake as three years ago and pretend that there is more value to battle for the seeds 8-12 rather than securing top draft pick and gaining future assets. Especially since we are now in a situation where our franchise player is already extended so we dont need to worry about him leaving (without hefty compensation) and since we really need another star level player in order to truly compete.
 
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I feel San Antonio is a declining team built around declining players. They finished one game better than the Kings last season despite all our injuries. I think comparatively the Kings are a team more trending upwards than San Antonio and on paper I like our roster better. I believe SA will be worse than they were last season.

I disagree on Memphis. They were a surprise last season but the Kings were better head to head(3-1)and have a deeper roster. Fox and Ja might have similar games but I believe we have the superior version.

In regards to those two teams I have little doubt that if the Kings hadn’t had the injuries they had in the pre-covid last season they would’ve finished better than both of them leaving no question. I think people are ignoring the injuries too much.

Minnesota is very thin everywhere except Towns and the combo guard position. I’m also unsure about Russell’s ability to play effectively(or allow others to play effectively) with other ball handlers so I’m not sure if Rubio will be a compliment like he was for Utah and Phoenix, or just a back up. I’m not a big fan of Russell and I’m not sure if either Russell or Towns make their teammates better..and Minnesota needs their stars to make the other guys better because quite frankly the other guys suck. Minnesota has virtually nothing at the 3-4 and almost no depth as well. I’d expect them to be sellers of Towns and Russell at some point next season and the Kings to be better.

I think Phoenix was bubble fools gold, they had a huge streak and still finished behind the Kings who were especially bad in the bubble...and while Paul makes them better I’m not ready to automatically put them as better than the Kings. New Orleans is the same though they have the grass is greener on the other side young core. I don’t think they are ready for a major improvement.

Portland you may be right. I wasn’t considering Nurkic and Collins to be honest but I also think the Lillard-CJ core is a spent force that has been more or less scouted and figured out to where they won’t run away from the rest of the pack..but the Kings would have to make significant leaps at certain positions to be better than them overall.

I’m also considering about 6-7 East teams the Kings will finish better than.

The point of my initial post is the Kings aren’t poised to be in play for a top 3 pick and it doesn’t appear they are blowing up what is atleast a 30 win team at worst. Last season was about the worst I’d expect from the roster.

Again, I’m not arguing whether the Kings should or shouldn’t blow it up and aim for draft position. I’d prefer for a bad team to be bad enough to have high draft picks than bad enough to miss the playoffs every year..but it looks to me like the Kings believe they have a team that’s just outside of the playoff picture that have core pieces that are still improving, haven’t peaked, and can be built upon.

I don’t think they are terribly off base but we shall see. I do think we’re a little jaded over here and tend to undervalue our players and overvalue others that are in the same positions like Phoenix, New Orleans, and Memphis. Not that there isn’t good reason for that.
Lots to respond to here... lol.

San Antonio - they have a nice young back court and a decent wing in Vassell. It’s close but our main injury was Bagley which likely helped us not hurt us.

Memphis was more injured than we were with players that actually make a difference. It’s hard to say if they will be healthy this year. If they have JJJ and Winslow they are the better team.

Pheonix is better than us at almost every position.
Paul is better than Fox this year
Booker is better than Buddy
Maybe a push Bridges and Barnes
Maybe a push Beli and whomever they play there
Ayton is better than Holmes.

As for the East teams they get to play each other while we play in a loaded west. That likely pushes us down a few notches. We lost Bazemore who helped quite a bit. We may not win more than a couple games in division.

.
 
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With Bogdan and wether to match or not, it comes down to this: ask around the league how much interest there would be at the trade deadline for him with his trade kicker. If there is none, let him go. If there is something and you have a gentlemans agreement that you will get something of value for him, then match.

This discussion on our strategy is an interesting topic and probably warrants its own place other than this free agency topic. Since there isnt one (and this post can be moved in there if its created) I will ask what is the probable route for this team to become a legit contender? How will it happen without cap space, without valuable trade assets and zero additional 1st round picks?

Its very hard for me to imagine even slightly realistic path for that to happen so why not start over? Clear the cap, gain future assets by dealing your vets that are tradeable and take bad contracts for future assets. I've been heavely recomending that for over three seasons but we've never done it, we,ve never truly rebuilt. Its a tough three years to go over a real rebuild but if it were started 2017 when there wasnt a real chance for us to compete, it would be pretty much over by now or at least we would be lot more flexible with our talent being much younger and cheaper.

Here is a discussion about this subject from three years ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/rebuild-strategy-or-we-want-lins.68592/
View attachment 10243

There is 20 pages of discussion in there. I would suggest that we dont do the same mistake as three years ago and pretend that there is more value to battle for the seeds 8-12 rather than securing top draft pick and gaining future assets. Especially since we are now in a situation where our franchise player is already extended so we dont need to worry about him leaving (without hefty compensation) and since we really need another star level player in order to truly compete.
For us to execute the last strategy you have to have players whom you can trade for picks. Sadly Vlade left us virtually bereft of talent. It will be a long road back.
 
If we take a look act the draft order from this year who ahead of us is likely to “fall” past us next year?

Atlanta for sure.
Phoenix for sure
Golden state Almost for sure

The Spurs will initially but if they are smart, and they are they will trade Lamarcus and Derozan at the break to start a rebuild so I expect they will still be ahead of us.

Minnesota has way more talent but the pieces don’t fit at least not yet. They will drop but not sure past us.
Okc is likely to be ahead of us.

That likely puts us around 10th.
remember we lost Bazemore who helped us win quite a few games. The other thing to remember the losses from us to Pheonix isn’t a lot and Pheonix will go past.

Bottom six is all you need. That is quite possible for us.
 
If you are talking who would play better next to Haliburton a low IQ player like Buddy makes Haliburton worse.

Buddy’s contract was one of many things Vlade did to F this team. It’s going to take time to fix.

Too be fair Buddy only allowed to touch the ball when it’s time to shoot is a better fit with Haliburton. But in Luke’s system everyone moves and thinks making Buddy a disaster (as is Bagley). At this point losing a reasonably priced asset makes no sense.
Buddy is best used off the ball. Spot him up and catch and shoot. Do that and he's a PERFECT compliment to both Fox and Haliburton. In fact, with both Fox and Haliburton if Walton runs Buddy at PG again then one thing positive will at least be Walton hitting the bricks likely within the first 10 games or so. Waltons mistake was running to much horns and motion. Spread the freaking floor 4-5 out and hit you drive and dish game.
 
With Bogdan and wether to match or not, it comes down to this: ask around the league how much interest there would be at the trade deadline for him with his trade kicker. If there is none, let him go. If there is something and you have a gentlemans agreement that you will get something of value for him, then match.

This discussion on our strategy is an interesting topic and probably warrants its own place other than this free agency topic. Since there isnt one (and this post can be moved in there if its created) I will ask what is the probable route for this team to become a legit contender? How will it happen without cap space, without valuable trade assets and zero additional 1st round picks?

Its very hard for me to imagine even slightly realistic path for that to happen so why not start over? Clear the cap, gain future assets by dealing your vets that are tradeable and take bad contracts for future assets. I've been heavely recomending that for over three seasons but we've never done it, we,ve never truly rebuilt. Its a tough three years to go over a real rebuild but if it were started 2017 when there wasnt a real chance for us to compete, it would be pretty much over by now or at least we would be lot more flexible with our talent being much younger and cheaper.

Here is a discussion about this subject from three years ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/rebuild-strategy-or-we-want-lins.68592/
View attachment 10243

There is 20 pages of discussion in there. I would suggest that we dont do the same mistake as three years ago and pretend that there is more value to battle for the seeds 8-12 rather than securing top draft pick and gaining future assets. Especially since we are now in a situation where our franchise player is already extended so we dont need to worry about him leaving (without hefty compensation) and since we really need another star level player in order to truly compete.
Lol, those poll results. It really is a testament to how jaded this fanbase has become in three years, maybe 2015-2018 was the whole honeymoon phase of having a Kings legend as a GM with a lot of blind confidence.

Then he gave out atrocious contracts, refused to take on any extra draft capital (this isn't just there being none available, Vlade's MO was an abject REFUSAL to take on bad contracts for pick or tank, instead valuing veteran mentorship and culture), had this groundless bravado about his rebuilding strategy, got bailed out by lottery luck, and then sqaundered it anyway. Hopefully we've all had our fill of that.

The only real solace I can take is to be a snarky, insufferable, "I told you so" know-it-all but I'd rather us be on a non-disaster path.
 
I agree and am surprised by how many people here see Buddy as a much better shooter than Bogi. By 2 percentage points?
I think because Bogi has and uses all-around skills, there’s a tendency to view him as mediocre and not recognize how good a shooter he is.
I brought it up consistently during last year as it was happening within the game threads. Beyond Waltons misuse of having him as a lead ball handler, the entire opposing defense was focused on Buddy most of the time. If you watched it almost every team without fail weighted their defense towards the side of the floor Buddy was on. They even doubled him frequently which put him in a terrible spot that Walton never helped him out of by putting him in more catch and shoot situations and especially spot up. There was also way too much off screen sets for him that just ended up clogging the paint for Fox. I rarely saw the opposing defense in a position to stop Bogdan. Rarely if ever. Those are two different worlds of respect there.
 
Could an argument be made we will be better this year as is?

Fox missed a bunch of games -> maybe healthy?
Bagley missed most of season-> big leap & health?
Buddy down year-> return to norm?
Drama over starting role-> defined roles

now the argument against is other teams improved more.
I’m not suggesting playoffs but I wouldn’t be totally shocked if this was a better team than last year. Unfortunately that would leave us out of the top picks.
Who knows, it's all up to the coach and the ownership. Lesson 1 of 1: When coach goes back to old habits ownership must put coach on plane out of town.

This has never been a question of talent or need. This team has pieces that actually fit in terms of skill also. So if Walton plays to his players strengths and the players can come in with a start over mentality while remaining healthy then there is no reason this team can't be dangerous and make noise this year.
 
I’d get onboard with a full tank rebuild if there were examples of small market teams doing that and seeing it work. Spurs are the only small market franchise I can think of that won championships. And they had success prior to Duncan and a great coach. Toronto, Utah etc may be examples of franchises with success but they didn’t get there thru tanking and top 5 picks.
 
Buddy is best used off the ball. Spot him up and catch and shoot. Do that and he's a PERFECT compliment to both Fox and Haliburton. In fact, with both Fox and Haliburton if Walton runs Buddy at PG again then one thing positive will at least be Walton hitting the bricks likely within the first 10 games or so. Waltons mistake was running to much horns and motion. Spread the freaking floor 4-5 out and hit you drive and dish game.
Depends on how you want to play. If you play read and react the Bogi’s possibly better. We just don’t know at this point.
 
Lol, those poll results. It really is a testament to how jaded this fanbase has become in three years, maybe 2015-2018 was the whole honeymoon phase of having a Kings legend as a GM with a lot of blind confidence.

Then he gave out atrocious contracts, refused to take on any extra draft capital (this isn't just there being none available, Vlade's MO was an abject REFUSAL to take on bad contracts for pick or tank, instead valuing veteran mentorship and culture), had this groundless bravado about his rebuilding strategy, got bailed out by lottery luck, and then sqaundered it anyway. Hopefully we've all had our fill of that.

The only real solace I can take is to be a snarky, insufferable, "I told you so" know-it-all but I'd rather us be on a non-disaster path.
lots of us got ripped for questioning Vlade.
 
I’d get onboard with a full tank rebuild if there were examples of small market teams doing that and seeing it work. Spurs are the only small market franchise I can think of that won championships. And they had success prior to Duncan and a great coach. Toronto, Utah etc may be examples of franchises with success but they didn’t get there thru tanking and top 5 picks.
small market teams get better by smartly using draft picks. See OKC. They are the model.

But that means using your cap space to get picks and trading valuable assets...

so what do we have.
expiring contracts:
Bjelicia
CoJo
Jabari Parker
Richaun Holmes.
Bagley ( if we decline his option)

assets
None

their is only so much open cap space you can have.
 
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remember we lost Bazemore who helped us win quite a few games. The other thing to remember the losses from us to Pheonix isn’t a lot and Pheonix will go past.

Bottom six is all you need. That is quite possible for us.
what is your projected draft position in the top ten?
I’d go
Cleveland
Chicago
Okc
Detroit
New York
Charlotte
Minnesota
San Antonio (betting on vets gone at trade deadline)
Sacramento
Orlando
 
Lots to respond to here... lol.

San Antonio - they have a nice young back court and a decent wing in Vassell. It’s close but our main injury was Bagley which likely helped us not hurt us.

Memphis was more injured than we were with players that actually make a difference. It’s hard to say if they will be healthy this year. If they have JJJ and Winslow they are the better team.

Pheonix is better than us at almost every position.
Paul is better than Fox this year
Booker is better than Buddy
Maybe a push Bridges and Barnes
Maybe a push Beli and whomever they play there
Ayton is better than Holmes.

As for the East teams they get to play each other while we play in a loaded west. That likely pushes us down a few notches. We lost Bazemore who helped quite a bit. We may not win more than a couple games in division.

.
Fox missed 21 games. That’s significant when we’re talking about a separation of 1-4 games. Holmes missed 28. Bogdan missed 11. Bagley virtually the entire season. A lot of games they were all gone at the same time. Bazemore was a plus but he also only played 25 games with the team. It wasn’t just one guy at a time and who’s injuries are more significant to whom is debatable but not easily measurable. As for the Spurs, Grizzlies, and Suns. I just disagree..especially in regards to the Spurs and Memphis but we’ll see how it plays out.

Looking at the Kings though, injuries were a major setback for them but they still finished with 31 wins. They still finished with only the 12th pick. Im sticking to this belief, especially if Bogdan is retained... and sans a major roster overhaul aimed at tanking the next season..,they will not be in play for a top 3 pick...but don’t worry, if I’m right, I likely won’t feel like it’s anything worth gloating about unless they way exceed my own expectations.
 
what is your projected draft position in the top ten?
I’d go
Cleveland
Chicago
Okc
Detroit
New York
Charlotte
Minnesota
San Antonio (betting on vets gone at trade deadline)
Sacramento
Orlando
Charlotte will be better with Hayward and Ball. Lottery ball order I think is...

Cleveland
OKC
New York
Sacramento (We have way more moveable contracts/ half our team in last year)
Detroit
Chicago
San Antonio
Washington
Orlando
Minnesota.
 
I believe this team has good pieces but has consistently missed opportunities to get over the top.

I'm willing to give a pass for the first few moves to clean up the mess left from the two weasels that preceded Vlade, but starting with the trade of the 10th pick in 2017, the whatever psyche out move that lead to Bagley over Luka (this could still at least net us a good player, and Bagley doesn't deserve remotely the pile on he gets), and whatever the hell happened between Vlade, Williams and Joerger that lead to all of them sent packing, we are certainly in another rebuild. And it's a great time for it. The key now is getting out of our bad investments with as little pain as possible and investing in our young players and hopefully a top 5 pick next year.
 
Fox missed 21 games. That’s significant when we’re talking about a separation of 1-4 games. Holmes missed 28. Bogdan missed 11. Bagley virtually the entire season. A lot of games they were all gone at the same time. Bazemore was a plus but he also only played 25 games with the team. It wasn’t just one guy at a time and who’s injuries are more significant to whom is debatable but not easily measurable. As for the Spurs, Grizzlies, and Suns. I just disagree..especially in regards to the Spurs and Memphis but we’ll see how it plays out.

Looking at the Kings though, injuries were a major setback for them but they still finished with 31 wins. They still finished with only the 12th pick. Im sticking to this belief, especially if Bogdan is retained... and sans a major roster overhaul aimed at tanking the next season..,they will not be in play for a top 3 pick...but don’t worry, if I’m right, I likely won’t feel like it’s anything worth gloating about unless they way exceed my own expectations.
Fair enough. From what I saw of Bagley he is worth a -7 games.

The next big decision will be to pick up his 11M option.
 
So giles gone for the minimum. Bazemore gone for under $3M.Bogie will be allowed to walk for nothing? Are we planning on signing a bunch of G-league players to fill the roster and tank out with our spanx out? Im not exactly sure what the hell is happening...
 
Rivers to NY

I like this idea:
Yossi Gozlan @YoggiMane
If the Kings match Bogi's offer sheet, the Hawks will have $19M in cap space in a market all but dried up of really good players. How would use their cap space? @John Hollinger suggests a Hield for Snell trade. Hawks probably have to send more back, but I love the framework. pic.twitter.com/J22xAGtqX9
If the Kings match on Bogi, a real possibility, ATL will have to give the Kings a lot more than Snell for Buddy.

Now that they have made McNair and the Kings mad, I would demand one of their young swing players (Hunter, Huerter or Reddish) and a first round pick for Buddy. :mad:

Who knows, this may have been ATL end game all along, to get Buddy to be the running mate for Trae Young.
 
So giles gone for the minimum. Bazemore gone for under $3M.Bogie will be allowed to walk for nothing? Are we planning on signing a bunch of G-league players to fill the roster and tank out with our spanx out? Im not exactly sure what the hell is happening...
yes. this is Monte's team now. Out with the old.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
Fair enough. From what I saw of Bagley he is worth a -7 games.

The next big decision will be to pick up his 11M option.
It's fun to be a contrarian, but sometimes a little feedback on when you've gone over the edge is useful.

You've gone over the edge with regards to Bagley. He is an already-good player with star potential who when healthy makes our team better, not worse. There is no "decision" about whether to pick up his fourth-year option. Not only will we pick it up, we would chase after it into moving traffic like it was a $100 bill blowing in the wind.