Bagley.
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
Once I saw a TV series. A guy was a Wall Street shark who’s job is to take a company that’s almost in bankrupt and make it function again. And he succeeded so the owner of the company offered him a permanent spot and ofc very well payed. He refused... why?
His job was to solve problems, and when there’s no problem in the company he is not needed.
For what are NBA GM’s getting payed for?
Any General Manager in any job r getting payed for decision making.. and if possible have a high % decision rate...
Because I’m asking some questions about this team..
Where we r heading with this core? Can we consistently make it to the PO with those guys? When next year GSW comes back, the 8 sheed with be right now the OKC with 32-22
Can we do this kind of record with this core?
I have a feeling that we don’t have what’s necessary to compete.
So some decisions should have been made. And I didn’t see any action from this front office.
if you don’t agree pls explain it to me
His job was to solve problems, and when there’s no problem in the company he is not needed.
For what are NBA GM’s getting payed for?
Any General Manager in any job r getting payed for decision making.. and if possible have a high % decision rate...
Because I’m asking some questions about this team..
Where we r heading with this core? Can we consistently make it to the PO with those guys? When next year GSW comes back, the 8 sheed with be right now the OKC with 32-22
Can we do this kind of record with this core?
I have a feeling that we don’t have what’s necessary to compete.
So some decisions should have been made. And I didn’t see any action from this front office.
if you don’t agree pls explain it to me
I doubt you can practice your 3pt shooting if your still in a walking boot, and I don't know that he still is, but, in any event, your 3pt shot usually requires you leaving the ground and returning to the ground. Probably something you don't want to do when trying to heal your foot. Now free throw shooting and upper body conditioning is something I can see. I would also be watching a lot of film and building your brains library. The more you know, the quicker you react.
It sure would be nice if the Kings FO can give the fans some idea of what Bagley can and is working on currently, given his foot issues. Same goes for Holmes with his shoulder. Can he shoot an outside shot, or is he not able to play because of the contact from someone bumping into it? These small morsels of information might allow Kings' fans to have some hope for the future so that we can get through this dumpster fire of a season.
My explanation is simple, we don't know! Bagley has played in what, 13 games, and he's considered one of the most important parts of our team. I'm as disappointed as everyone else in where we are right now, and I do think some changes need to be made, but I'm not ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater just yet.
Until we get to see the entire team on the floor healthy for at least 30 or 40 games in a row, how the hell are we supposed to judge? First and foremost, what we want is a team, and to play as a team requires chemistry and familiarity. We've had very little of that this season. You can blame who you want for that, Vlade, the training staff, the basketball God's, perhaps to some extent, Walton, but regardless of who you blame, we still have no idea how all the pieces fit together.
When I see Corey Joseph out there guarding Porzingis I wonder if I've just traveled into an alternative universe? Just who do I blame for that? Walton? Yeah, probably, but despite that, how am I supposed to judge anything about the team based on that? That was one of the weirdest games I've watched in a long time, and my kneejerk reaction would be to immediately fire Walton. Upon later reflection, it's probably better to wait until the end of the season, so I can go hide for a bit. I'm speaking as Vivek.
I'm not sure where the KIngs rank in minutes lost to injury, but my guess is that were up there at the top. And it's not just minutes lost, but minutes lost to the most important players on the team. So yeah, Walton has been dealt a tough hand. But let me ask you this, if it was Joerger coaching the team, would we have more wins? How about Malone? Yeah, me too! I have my opinion on who needs to go and who needs to stay as far as players go, but I'll keep them to myself for now. But I would definitely get rid of Walton at the end of the year. I don't think he has a clue what he's doing.
Look, when everything falls into it's proper place, it's a lot easier to coach a team. I get that! But you can really evaluate a coach when he faced with situations he never expected. How will he rise to the occasion? Did I expect the Kings to make the playoff's despite all their injuries? No, and I don't think any logical person would. But I did expect them to look like a well coached team, not the keystone cops. There is talent on this team, and that should translate into more wins than we've had.
I'm fine with most of this roster going into next season, but we need a new leader. No more experiments. Hire a solid, respected coach who is good at dealing with young players as well as older experienced players. I would even go with a highly successful college coach like a Jay Wright of Villanova (only an example). But most of all, hire a coach with a winning track record, and preferably someone that's about team success more than individual success.
Until we get to see the entire team on the floor healthy for at least 30 or 40 games in a row, how the hell are we supposed to judge? First and foremost, what we want is a team, and to play as a team requires chemistry and familiarity. We've had very little of that this season. You can blame who you want for that, Vlade, the training staff, the basketball God's, perhaps to some extent, Walton, but regardless of who you blame, we still have no idea how all the pieces fit together.
When I see Corey Joseph out there guarding Porzingis I wonder if I've just traveled into an alternative universe? Just who do I blame for that? Walton? Yeah, probably, but despite that, how am I supposed to judge anything about the team based on that? That was one of the weirdest games I've watched in a long time, and my kneejerk reaction would be to immediately fire Walton. Upon later reflection, it's probably better to wait until the end of the season, so I can go hide for a bit. I'm speaking as Vivek.
I'm not sure where the KIngs rank in minutes lost to injury, but my guess is that were up there at the top. And it's not just minutes lost, but minutes lost to the most important players on the team. So yeah, Walton has been dealt a tough hand. But let me ask you this, if it was Joerger coaching the team, would we have more wins? How about Malone? Yeah, me too! I have my opinion on who needs to go and who needs to stay as far as players go, but I'll keep them to myself for now. But I would definitely get rid of Walton at the end of the year. I don't think he has a clue what he's doing.
Look, when everything falls into it's proper place, it's a lot easier to coach a team. I get that! But you can really evaluate a coach when he faced with situations he never expected. How will he rise to the occasion? Did I expect the Kings to make the playoff's despite all their injuries? No, and I don't think any logical person would. But I did expect them to look like a well coached team, not the keystone cops. There is talent on this team, and that should translate into more wins than we've had.
I'm fine with most of this roster going into next season, but we need a new leader. No more experiments. Hire a solid, respected coach who is good at dealing with young players as well as older experienced players. I would even go with a highly successful college coach like a Jay Wright of Villanova (only an example). But most of all, hire a coach with a winning track record, and preferably someone that's about team success more than individual success.
The problem itself is not the people that are not playing... what I want to say is even with them we are not top 8 in the west, as a fan we all have great expectations for our team to win.
But to me I’m just saying that even with all the team healthy all year we r still not there. And the only impactful player that we have missed for long time due to injury is holmes,
It’s sad to said it but Bagley not playing actually helping the kings win
This kid had played 13 games and have 3-10 record.
And injuries r just an excuse. U don’t need to have all ur players healthy to see where is ur teams expectations.
Look Indiana without Oladipo, look how well nets play when Irving is our, they play like a team without kirie.
In a team full of winners... what happens when a player is injured? Another one steps up and perform.
Do u know who is granger? And who is Paul George? Like I said the problem for me is we lack talent on this team not the injuries.
But to me I’m just saying that even with all the team healthy all year we r still not there. And the only impactful player that we have missed for long time due to injury is holmes,
It’s sad to said it but Bagley not playing actually helping the kings win
This kid had played 13 games and have 3-10 record.
And injuries r just an excuse. U don’t need to have all ur players healthy to see where is ur teams expectations.
Look Indiana without Oladipo, look how well nets play when Irving is our, they play like a team without kirie.
In a team full of winners... what happens when a player is injured? Another one steps up and perform.
Do u know who is granger? And who is Paul George? Like I said the problem for me is we lack talent on this team not the injuries.
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I totally disagree on the talent aspect. This team has plenty of talent, but it doesn't have a good head coach. But that aside, the idea that were better without Bagley is ridiculous. Just how in the hell would you know that when he's only played in 13 games. teams win when they play like a team, and how do you do that when the lineup keeps changing. Yeah, Indiana did well without Oladipo, but they still had the rest of their team. what if they had lost Sabonis as well, or Sabonis and Turner both. What then?????
The Kings lost Bagley and Fox, right at the beginning of the year, then Bogdanovic, then Fox is back, and Bogi is back, and then Bogi is gone again, and then Bagley comes back, and then he's gone again and then Holmes is gone. On top of that, for most of that time, Buddy forgot how to play basketball and thought he was superman. Now you can choose to ignore all that if you want, and I will agree that the team should be better regardless. But not because of lack of talent, but because of lack of good coaching.
I love how people want to throw Bagley under the bus. None of this is his fault. He didn't ask to get drafted by us. He didn't try to get injured. Last year he played like a top draft pick. This year he hasn't had any chance to get into a grove and build some familiarity with his teammates. He's played what, 4 or 5 games total with Holmes, and a few more with Fox. How in the hell can anyone judge him on that? I have no idea how good he can be, or how he'll eventually fit on this team. Maybe you should lend me your crystal ball..
The Kings lost Bagley and Fox, right at the beginning of the year, then Bogdanovic, then Fox is back, and Bogi is back, and then Bogi is gone again, and then Bagley comes back, and then he's gone again and then Holmes is gone. On top of that, for most of that time, Buddy forgot how to play basketball and thought he was superman. Now you can choose to ignore all that if you want, and I will agree that the team should be better regardless. But not because of lack of talent, but because of lack of good coaching.
I love how people want to throw Bagley under the bus. None of this is his fault. He didn't ask to get drafted by us. He didn't try to get injured. Last year he played like a top draft pick. This year he hasn't had any chance to get into a grove and build some familiarity with his teammates. He's played what, 4 or 5 games total with Holmes, and a few more with Fox. How in the hell can anyone judge him on that? I have no idea how good he can be, or how he'll eventually fit on this team. Maybe you should lend me your crystal ball..
All very good points! There's a lot to be excited about with Bagley. He's still just 20 years old. He needs to get healthy and keep building his game but guys don't wander into nationally ranked college programs, miss all of pre-season due to leaving HS a year early, and then put up one of the best freshman seasons of all-time by accident. The talent to be a superstar in the NBA is definitely there and it would be a shame if we botched his development because we can't figure out how to use him.
We all get why there's so much Bagley backlash. I also get really into scouting draft prospects and the other guy was the best prospect I've personally seen in 10 years. It's possible that decision also cost us our head coach. But it is important to remember that none of that is Bagley's fault and we shouldn't let our disappointment prevent us from enjoying what we do have. I'm speaking to myself here as much as I am to anyone else... it's time to stop moping and look forward. And when you do look forward, we know that De'Aaron Fox is one of the best young PGs in the game. We know that Buddy Hield is one of the premier shooters. We know that Marvin Bagley is a 20/10 guy when he gets starter's minutes. There's big-time talent here already. Holmes, Bjelica, and Barnes are a capable supporting cast and then there's guys like Bogi, Giles, Bazemore, and Parker who have uncertain futures with the team but potential to stick around as key contributors too. There's another draft this year where we'll have the opportunity to add another very good young player. It shouldn't really matter to us what other teams are doing. In the context of this team, the future still looks better than it has in awhile.
We all get why there's so much Bagley backlash. I also get really into scouting draft prospects and the other guy was the best prospect I've personally seen in 10 years. It's possible that decision also cost us our head coach. But it is important to remember that none of that is Bagley's fault and we shouldn't let our disappointment prevent us from enjoying what we do have. I'm speaking to myself here as much as I am to anyone else... it's time to stop moping and look forward. And when you do look forward, we know that De'Aaron Fox is one of the best young PGs in the game. We know that Buddy Hield is one of the premier shooters. We know that Marvin Bagley is a 20/10 guy when he gets starter's minutes. There's big-time talent here already. Holmes, Bjelica, and Barnes are a capable supporting cast and then there's guys like Bogi, Giles, Bazemore, and Parker who have uncertain futures with the team but potential to stick around as key contributors too. There's another draft this year where we'll have the opportunity to add another very good young player. It shouldn't really matter to us what other teams are doing. In the context of this team, the future still looks better than it has in awhile.
Indiana lost Brogdan for a good chunk of the season as well while Dipo was out, the team is completely devoid of talent that actually helps you win Holmes/Bjelica aside that's the problem.
Every single team in the NBA has really good talent but some talent win's some does not e.g Parker/Barnes are extremely talented but they won't help you achieve anything other than piling up lottery picks and than you replace them with a lesser talent and your better for it.
Every single team in the NBA has really good talent but some talent win's some does not e.g Parker/Barnes are extremely talented but they won't help you achieve anything other than piling up lottery picks and than you replace them with a lesser talent and your better for it.
I do think that what you exposed indeed are all very good reasons.
But I somehow can’t be that exited as you. In terms of team projection.
On talent lvl.we prob only have fox and Bagley as potential top 10 best players in their respective positions and neither should be top 5 ever. They just not that good.
And when you don’t have super stars in your team you do need other players that can step up. At most this team reminds me of the best trio in sac town when DMC, Gay and I Thomas played together. For whatever reason that team did not have competitive spirit. And I have a feeling that this current core lack it too.
Just to said it strike they are a bunch of losers or payers that don’t have winner mentality.
As a team we don’t have the mamba mentality.
Like I said many of ur points just try to explain why we r 8 games under the 8 sheed by using the injury and bad coaching as an excuse. Winners don’t need any kind of excuse u just need to be better even if ur team is trash.
Also in the locker room we also lack leadership. Another sign of loser mentality, in a locker room people don’t just come out tot the media and talk crap. Imagine LeBron playing in Sacramento, the first moment Buddy came out and said that he should play more and he feels like he is not respected. He prob will get traded the next morning.
At the end you base ur optimism by expecting the team will do better IF there is no injuries and IF the coaching staff do their job properly.
My point is I’m stating some common issue in losing teams such like:
Lack of leadership in the locker room
Lack of competitive spirit. Many guys asked to be traded.
Lack of talent since we indeed with this roster will hardly have any starter that will be projected to be top 10 in their position at best.
If you didn’t noticed none of those things that worries me can be explained by injuries.
It’s intangibles. That’s what concerns me.
Maybe I’m wrong but I’ve seen enough basketball to know that I have legit reasons to say this.
You should take it as a constructive criticism.
With Bagley is the same. Someone said that he can be a 20-10 player.
I’m sure he can be, but i still have my concerns that if those 20-10 can make an impact. It sounds weird right? 20-10 is great when you are decent interior defender. If not Rudy Gobert is much better with his 15 points per game.
But I somehow can’t be that exited as you. In terms of team projection.
On talent lvl.we prob only have fox and Bagley as potential top 10 best players in their respective positions and neither should be top 5 ever. They just not that good.
And when you don’t have super stars in your team you do need other players that can step up. At most this team reminds me of the best trio in sac town when DMC, Gay and I Thomas played together. For whatever reason that team did not have competitive spirit. And I have a feeling that this current core lack it too.
Just to said it strike they are a bunch of losers or payers that don’t have winner mentality.
As a team we don’t have the mamba mentality.
Like I said many of ur points just try to explain why we r 8 games under the 8 sheed by using the injury and bad coaching as an excuse. Winners don’t need any kind of excuse u just need to be better even if ur team is trash.
Also in the locker room we also lack leadership. Another sign of loser mentality, in a locker room people don’t just come out tot the media and talk crap. Imagine LeBron playing in Sacramento, the first moment Buddy came out and said that he should play more and he feels like he is not respected. He prob will get traded the next morning.
At the end you base ur optimism by expecting the team will do better IF there is no injuries and IF the coaching staff do their job properly.
My point is I’m stating some common issue in losing teams such like:
Lack of leadership in the locker room
Lack of competitive spirit. Many guys asked to be traded.
Lack of talent since we indeed with this roster will hardly have any starter that will be projected to be top 10 in their position at best.
If you didn’t noticed none of those things that worries me can be explained by injuries.
It’s intangibles. That’s what concerns me.
Maybe I’m wrong but I’ve seen enough basketball to know that I have legit reasons to say this.
You should take it as a constructive criticism.
With Bagley is the same. Someone said that he can be a 20-10 player.
I’m sure he can be, but i still have my concerns that if those 20-10 can make an impact. It sounds weird right? 20-10 is great when you are decent interior defender. If not Rudy Gobert is much better with his 15 points per game.
Last year we had the same core talent as this year. I dont know your stance on Joeger but some people say that he was a good head coach. Last year we also had the best injury luck in the whole league per this: http://instreetclothes.com/team-analysis/sacramento-kings/
So we had the talent, had a good head coach and the best injury luck. That amounted to 39 wins. Imo good talent, good coach and great injury luck wont equal 39 wins so something is off in that equation. Some would say that the talent is not there and there is a solid argument for it.
If the talent is the problem, unfortunately our means to improve it are pretty limited. Lot will have to be internal growth but there arent that many pieces that could be expected to take huge leaps. Bagley is one since he hasnt been a winning player yet but has physical talent. Hopefully he is locked in a film room studying defensive rotations, pick n roll coverages and finding ways to be a part of smart efficent offense (aka quick ball movement, when to space and when to cut ect).
So we had the talent, had a good head coach and the best injury luck. That amounted to 39 wins. Imo good talent, good coach and great injury luck wont equal 39 wins so something is off in that equation. Some would say that the talent is not there and there is a solid argument for it.
If the talent is the problem, unfortunately our means to improve it are pretty limited. Lot will have to be internal growth but there arent that many pieces that could be expected to take huge leaps. Bagley is one since he hasnt been a winning player yet but has physical talent. Hopefully he is locked in a film room studying defensive rotations, pick n roll coverages and finding ways to be a part of smart efficent offense (aka quick ball movement, when to space and when to cut ect).
I've mostly been looking at the negatives with Bagley because he's not the guy I wanted in the draft and his defensive awareness was suspect even in college. But if you flip it and look at the positives instead, he does already project as a 20/10 big man and while that might not mean what it used to in an era of 120 pt/G average scores and volume three point shooting, he's still a guy we can build around. Big men don't lead teams to championships right now, I've already made that argument, but you still need somebody to fill that role. Maybe he develops into a player like Karl-Anthony Towns who does just about everything for Minnesota except defend. So you put a defense big next to him. Maybe a guy like Omyeka Okongwu in this year's draft. That's not an unfixable problem. He might not end up being the best player on this team but he can and should be an important part of the future.
Certainly I would have hoped this team could have built on last year's progress and win something like 45 games but we've got a new coach who's still figuring out his rotation and that's not easy when guys are missing a bunch of games for injury reasons. That's not an excuse, absolutely they need to find ways to win games but I think if you look at this roster objectively, the talent is there to earn a playoff seed if they can get the pieces to fit together better. So there's work to be done of course but it's not always easy to project the future based on current results. Golden State jumped from 23 wins in the 2011/2012 season to 47 wins in 2012/2013 en route to becoming a 73 win powerhouse (and that's all Pre-Durant). Steph Curry was in his third season when they won only 23 games. Things can turn around very quickly when you get the right peices in place. That's why I think we need to be patient and see what develops.
Certainly I would have hoped this team could have built on last year's progress and win something like 45 games but we've got a new coach who's still figuring out his rotation and that's not easy when guys are missing a bunch of games for injury reasons. That's not an excuse, absolutely they need to find ways to win games but I think if you look at this roster objectively, the talent is there to earn a playoff seed if they can get the pieces to fit together better. So there's work to be done of course but it's not always easy to project the future based on current results. Golden State jumped from 23 wins in the 2011/2012 season to 47 wins in 2012/2013 en route to becoming a 73 win powerhouse (and that's all Pre-Durant). Steph Curry was in his third season when they won only 23 games. Things can turn around very quickly when you get the right peices in place. That's why I think we need to be patient and see what develops.
People here are much higher on Bagley than I am. And that is not because of Luka or Marvin's dad or anything like that.
IMO, Bagley is a project. He is a guy who got by so far on sheer athleticism but can't at this stage. He lacks fundamentals, lacks plenty of skills, and lacks a good feeling/understanding for many aspects of the game. I believe that it will take a long time before he MAY develop enough to be a franchise cornerstone, at least two or three season. Some of those things are very difficult to develop at the age of 20, IMO.
Will he develop here, and will the Kings be able to help him develop, and have both sides the patience to see it through? And will he develop so much that he can lead or even help lead a team deep into the play-offs? I have my doubts. Love to be proven wrong.
IMO, Bagley is a project. He is a guy who got by so far on sheer athleticism but can't at this stage. He lacks fundamentals, lacks plenty of skills, and lacks a good feeling/understanding for many aspects of the game. I believe that it will take a long time before he MAY develop enough to be a franchise cornerstone, at least two or three season. Some of those things are very difficult to develop at the age of 20, IMO.
Will he develop here, and will the Kings be able to help him develop, and have both sides the patience to see it through? And will he develop so much that he can lead or even help lead a team deep into the play-offs? I have my doubts. Love to be proven wrong.
Well, I could write a book trying to respond to everything you posted, and that would bore everyone, including you to death. But first, I wouldn't use the word excited to describe how I feel about the team. I think the word I would use is disappointed. But when I look at a team, any team, I try to remove emotion from the equation. Which I admit is harder to do with your home team. I'm a person who operates on logic, and if I let my emotions, like when I threw something at my TV during the Dallas game get involved in my appraisals, I would sound entirely different.
So, lack of leadership in the locker room. Since I'm not privy to what goes on in the locker room, I have no idea if that's true or not. You've made an assumption. Assumptions aren't facts..
Lack of competitive spirit, and, many players asked to be traded. To the best of my memory, only Dedmon publicly asked to be traded. Everything else is a rumor. When you talk about competitive spirit, you almost have to take it player by player. Does that apply to Fox? How about Holmes. Buddy has plenty of competitive spirit even if it's directed in the wrong place at times. Do you think Giles isn't a competitor? On the whole, I think most of the players on the team have competitive spirit. That doesn't mean they don't lose faith from time to time. Losing is like a disease.
One thing I try to never do is speak in absolutes. Because first, only God can speak in absolutes. We as mere humans are incapable of predicting the future. So to say that this player or that player will never reach a certain level, you have to either be God, or have some connections with him that I would love to know about. We can make educated guesses, but that's the best we can do. My educated guess with Bagley, if healthy, would be that he's either a future all star, or one of those players that flirts with it every year. I also think he has the potential to be a superstar, but as Vince Lombardi once said, the word potential means you haven't done anything yet.
I've been watching NBA basketball for close to 60 years, and yet I'm still surprised by the accomplishments of some players who far exceeded expectations. At the same time, the NBA graveyard is littered with the bones of projected superstar material. As a result, It's folly to speak in absolutes.
I think where you and I tend to disagree is on how things are interconnected. You point out all the deficiencies, but leave them as stand alone reasons for the current results. You seem to believe that the injuries have no overall effect on those individual deficiencies. Everything is connected! A good team is like a good engine. But remove one of the spark plug cables, and the engine doesn't run nearly as well. It's the same with a team. Everything has to be in sync, and that can't happen when some of the parts keep getting interchanged.
Here is my current problem with this team, injuries aside. If Fox and Bagley are the two top pieces of this team going forward, then I have no idea what that team looks like. I can guess, but I haven't seen them on the floor with everyone else for more than a few games. To me, that's what makes this a lost season. We've learned very little from it when talking about how Fox and Bagley work together on the floor. I would love to blame someone for that, and would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction.
If you have a great coach, and give him a team full of average NBA players with no superstar, I can guarantee you that his team will overachieve in the eye's of most people. Give that coach a team full of above average players with at least one superstar, and he's probably contending for a championship. By the same token, give a bad coach a good team with one superstar, and he'll find a way to underachieve. The coach matters. The talent matters, and how that talent fits together matters. Just acquiring 3 superstars doesn't guarantee you a championship team if they don't compliment each other.
The Kings are unique in that their projected two best players, are very young, similar to Memphis. Adding Fox and Bagley to any team, regardless of future projections about how good they will be, isn't close to the same as adding a Lowery and a Kahwi Leonard because of their experience. The difference between Memphis and the Kings is basically health. Do I think that if Fox, Bagley, and Bogie had been healthy all year we'd be competing for that 8th spot? Yes, I do. But make no mistake, even if the Kings were to grab the 8th spot, they're still a long way from a championship. It's only a start.
That means the Kings have to strike gold with both Fox and Bagley, then add one more impact player. Then they have to stay healthy. But in my humble opinion, none of that matters if Walton is the coach. Players like coaches, like consistency. They want to know their role, and when they're going to play. Familiarity breeds success. There's nothing more frustrating for a player than a coach that flies by the seat of his pants.
One final thing. Judging a players potential on his first or even second year results can make you look foolish. There have been superstars that were almost booed off their teams in their first year, like Dirk Nowitzki. But here are a few examples that sometimes, it just take a little time.
Nowitzki: 1st year - 20.4 mpg - 8.2 ppg - 3.4 rpg: 2nd year - 35.8 mpg - 17.5 ppg - 6.5 rpg
Garnett: 1st year - 28.7 mpg - 10.4 ppg - 6.3 rpg: 2nd year - 38.9 mpg - 17.0 ppg - 8.0 rpg
Antetokounmpo: 1st year - 24.6 mpg - 6.8 ppg - 4.4 rpg: 2nd year - 31.4 mpg - 12.7 ppg - 6.7 rpg
Anthony Davis: 1st year - 28.8 mpg - 13.5 ppg - 8.2 rpg: 2nd year - 35.2 mpg - 20.8 ppg - 10.0 rpg
Marvin Bagley: 1st year - 25.3 mpg - 14.9 ppg - 7.6 rpg: 2nd year - 25.7 mpg - 14.2 ppg - 7.5 rpg
Just looking at first years, it would appear that Bagley is on track to a good career, and ahead of a couple of the players listed. Its the second year that's wasted. So to me, it's not a question of talent. It's a question of how does all that talent fit together. That's something we were supposed to find out this year, and haven't. This was supposed to be a growth year, and it was wasted.
So, lack of leadership in the locker room. Since I'm not privy to what goes on in the locker room, I have no idea if that's true or not. You've made an assumption. Assumptions aren't facts..
Lack of competitive spirit, and, many players asked to be traded. To the best of my memory, only Dedmon publicly asked to be traded. Everything else is a rumor. When you talk about competitive spirit, you almost have to take it player by player. Does that apply to Fox? How about Holmes. Buddy has plenty of competitive spirit even if it's directed in the wrong place at times. Do you think Giles isn't a competitor? On the whole, I think most of the players on the team have competitive spirit. That doesn't mean they don't lose faith from time to time. Losing is like a disease.
One thing I try to never do is speak in absolutes. Because first, only God can speak in absolutes. We as mere humans are incapable of predicting the future. So to say that this player or that player will never reach a certain level, you have to either be God, or have some connections with him that I would love to know about. We can make educated guesses, but that's the best we can do. My educated guess with Bagley, if healthy, would be that he's either a future all star, or one of those players that flirts with it every year. I also think he has the potential to be a superstar, but as Vince Lombardi once said, the word potential means you haven't done anything yet.
I've been watching NBA basketball for close to 60 years, and yet I'm still surprised by the accomplishments of some players who far exceeded expectations. At the same time, the NBA graveyard is littered with the bones of projected superstar material. As a result, It's folly to speak in absolutes.
I think where you and I tend to disagree is on how things are interconnected. You point out all the deficiencies, but leave them as stand alone reasons for the current results. You seem to believe that the injuries have no overall effect on those individual deficiencies. Everything is connected! A good team is like a good engine. But remove one of the spark plug cables, and the engine doesn't run nearly as well. It's the same with a team. Everything has to be in sync, and that can't happen when some of the parts keep getting interchanged.
Here is my current problem with this team, injuries aside. If Fox and Bagley are the two top pieces of this team going forward, then I have no idea what that team looks like. I can guess, but I haven't seen them on the floor with everyone else for more than a few games. To me, that's what makes this a lost season. We've learned very little from it when talking about how Fox and Bagley work together on the floor. I would love to blame someone for that, and would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction.
If you have a great coach, and give him a team full of average NBA players with no superstar, I can guarantee you that his team will overachieve in the eye's of most people. Give that coach a team full of above average players with at least one superstar, and he's probably contending for a championship. By the same token, give a bad coach a good team with one superstar, and he'll find a way to underachieve. The coach matters. The talent matters, and how that talent fits together matters. Just acquiring 3 superstars doesn't guarantee you a championship team if they don't compliment each other.
The Kings are unique in that their projected two best players, are very young, similar to Memphis. Adding Fox and Bagley to any team, regardless of future projections about how good they will be, isn't close to the same as adding a Lowery and a Kahwi Leonard because of their experience. The difference between Memphis and the Kings is basically health. Do I think that if Fox, Bagley, and Bogie had been healthy all year we'd be competing for that 8th spot? Yes, I do. But make no mistake, even if the Kings were to grab the 8th spot, they're still a long way from a championship. It's only a start.
That means the Kings have to strike gold with both Fox and Bagley, then add one more impact player. Then they have to stay healthy. But in my humble opinion, none of that matters if Walton is the coach. Players like coaches, like consistency. They want to know their role, and when they're going to play. Familiarity breeds success. There's nothing more frustrating for a player than a coach that flies by the seat of his pants.
One final thing. Judging a players potential on his first or even second year results can make you look foolish. There have been superstars that were almost booed off their teams in their first year, like Dirk Nowitzki. But here are a few examples that sometimes, it just take a little time.
Nowitzki: 1st year - 20.4 mpg - 8.2 ppg - 3.4 rpg: 2nd year - 35.8 mpg - 17.5 ppg - 6.5 rpg
Garnett: 1st year - 28.7 mpg - 10.4 ppg - 6.3 rpg: 2nd year - 38.9 mpg - 17.0 ppg - 8.0 rpg
Antetokounmpo: 1st year - 24.6 mpg - 6.8 ppg - 4.4 rpg: 2nd year - 31.4 mpg - 12.7 ppg - 6.7 rpg
Anthony Davis: 1st year - 28.8 mpg - 13.5 ppg - 8.2 rpg: 2nd year - 35.2 mpg - 20.8 ppg - 10.0 rpg
Marvin Bagley: 1st year - 25.3 mpg - 14.9 ppg - 7.6 rpg: 2nd year - 25.7 mpg - 14.2 ppg - 7.5 rpg
Just looking at first years, it would appear that Bagley is on track to a good career, and ahead of a couple of the players listed. Its the second year that's wasted. So to me, it's not a question of talent. It's a question of how does all that talent fit together. That's something we were supposed to find out this year, and haven't. This was supposed to be a growth year, and it was wasted.
Let’s not compare Bagley to all time greats starting comparisons to a guy like Collins or Clarke in Memphis might be a start and they look better. What makes you think Bagley has superstar potential? What skill set does he have for this? He’s scoring spoon fed points and teams are game planning for Fox/Buddy/Bogi before they game plan for Bagley. If he even starts to hurt teams by creating for himself he hasn’t proven he can pass to warrant superstar potential. I expect a superstar to great for himself as well as others I don’t even think Fox has superstar potential I think he has star potential though.
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Absolutely not, the IQ and shooting of the Memphis two embarrasses the Kings duo, also the ability to make teammates better on both ends (Morant on offense/Jackson on defense) is not even comparable. I know this will come as shock to most since we beat the Grizzlies and Fox outplayed Morant for 1-2 games this year (and yes they might very well beat Memphis again this week). It's easy to build around the skill sets of Morant/JJJ where as the Kings could never have a guy like Winslow on the team since Bagley/Fox cannot shoot and Bagley can't pass. We have already seen the difficultly we have trying to fit Bagley around Bjelica/Holmes who would both easily fit in Memphis guys like Kyle Anderson/Val would struggle to fit into a fully healthy Kings squad unless Bagley was on the bench and playing small minutes. You can plug and play in any type of player next to the Memphis duo where as the Kings went and signed a specific player (Dedmon) who completely failed.
The difference between Memphis and the Kings is not health it's they have a better young core and there FA signing/trades have not been completely idiotic and wasteful. They are a "Super team but young" where as the Kings are a 9 (healthy injury free year)-15th seed treadmill team.
The difference between Memphis and the Kings is not health it's they have a better young core and there FA signing/trades have not been completely idiotic and wasteful. They are a "Super team but young" where as the Kings are a 9 (healthy injury free year)-15th seed treadmill team.
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Collins must be mvp potential than he creates points for himself and was at 19/9/2 in his second year. Bagley catches lobs cant back down Derrick Jones jr but somehow has star potential, absurd. What skill set does Bagley have that makes you say this? He can’t shoot , can’t go right, can’t create for others, too small to play the 5. That’s not a star potential guy we should be hoping for a decent number 2 guy in Bagley.
Morant/JJJ are light years ahead of Fox/Bagley it’s not even up for debate
Morant/JJJ are light years ahead of Fox/Bagley it’s not even up for debate
Because he is not a finished product. Many players need playing time to develop. IMO Bagley is one of them. He may or may not develop into a force in the NBA but the Kings should let him heal up and give him a chance to develop.
I thought Bagley looked pretty good when he played. With so few games he really never had a chance to develop this season.
I think all the disappointment of the Kings season is being laid at the feet of Bagley. Do you think he wants to be injured? There are many reasons and people to blame for the Kings poor season. Lashing out at Bagley is unjustified IMO.
I thought Bagley looked pretty good when he played. With so few games he really never had a chance to develop this season.
I think all the disappointment of the Kings season is being laid at the feet of Bagley. Do you think he wants to be injured? There are many reasons and people to blame for the Kings poor season. Lashing out at Bagley is unjustified IMO.
Not at all it's on Vlade (for picking him) for giving out ridiculous contracts (Ariza/Barnes/Buddy/Dedmon/Cojo), the team showed last year they come overcome Bagley on the court. Most of the Bagley "haters" thought he was crap prior to the season starting I wish he were healthy so we could blow this whole thing up and get #1 pick.
Unfortunately my take on our team and the draft position goes like this.
If we were actually in the hunt for a playoff spot we would lose to many games at the end like last year.
Or the most common way we go is we will win enough games to keep us in the lottery and will draft around 10th to 14th by winning instead of tanking at the end of the season.
Now as far as Bagley goes I hope he sits out the season and gets and stays healthy so we can see what we actually have. Then I can hopefully make my decision on what he actually is as a player.
I would prefer to see the two new players we just picked up on the floor to see if they are going to work for us.
I would hope we can see if they fit in before we dump them.
If we were actually in the hunt for a playoff spot we would lose to many games at the end like last year.
Or the most common way we go is we will win enough games to keep us in the lottery and will draft around 10th to 14th by winning instead of tanking at the end of the season.
Now as far as Bagley goes I hope he sits out the season and gets and stays healthy so we can see what we actually have. Then I can hopefully make my decision on what he actually is as a player.
I would prefer to see the two new players we just picked up on the floor to see if they are going to work for us.
I would hope we can see if they fit in before we dump them.
I'm still high on Bagley. He was my second favorite player in that draft, behind Luka. I wanted Luka, thought he would be plug and play from day one, thought he would play like a Utah version of Gordon Hayward. And he has. That was an undeniable miss. But I wasn't appalled that the Kings picked Bagley, because I thought he would have a Joakim Noah like impact immediately. In some respects, with his rebounding, he has. In other respects, he hasn't, especially his defense. I thought the reports about his poor defense were over blown. Year one seemed to indicate that he was a better defender than most gave him credit for, but he's regressed significantly this year--especially on team defensive concepts. That is likely due to a lack of playing time, but it is also due to a lack of film study. With all the time he's been out, you'd think he would've been in the film room studying up on how to get better. Film study would quicken his upload time. But his upload time is still slow. Upload time is real--Fox makes one mistake, he corrects it immediately. Bagley makes one mistake, it's taking him 1.6 years to correct it.
It's becoming undeniable that he needs to devote more time, off the court, to hoops (physical and mental). And Amick's article hints at it when he notes that some "key circles" see Bagley in a certain light. What that certain light is, we can speculate. My bet, they're questioning his priorities and work ethic. I've asked, but has anyone heard the phrase: Marvin Bagley is a hard worker?
Injuries are an excuse up to a point. It's a skill. One that he hasn't acquired (yet; maybe never?). And injuries are going to continue to keep happening when you're in a boy's body playing against men in the paint (where he operates best).
But even before the injuries, he didn't develop his body at all. Dude looked exactly as he did last year while JJJ and Ayton became physical monsters over the summer. Maybe it's because Bags sees himself as a three and others saw themselves as future big men. Maybe it was because his circle thought he may still be growing and lifting would stunt his growth. Or maybe he needs to fire his trainers and hire new trainers. Whatever it was, if he comes in looking the same next year, questions about his priorities, circle, and work ethic will only get louder.
It may not seem as so, but I'm rooting for him. Time will tell.
It's becoming undeniable that he needs to devote more time, off the court, to hoops (physical and mental). And Amick's article hints at it when he notes that some "key circles" see Bagley in a certain light. What that certain light is, we can speculate. My bet, they're questioning his priorities and work ethic. I've asked, but has anyone heard the phrase: Marvin Bagley is a hard worker?
Injuries are an excuse up to a point. It's a skill. One that he hasn't acquired (yet; maybe never?). And injuries are going to continue to keep happening when you're in a boy's body playing against men in the paint (where he operates best).
But even before the injuries, he didn't develop his body at all. Dude looked exactly as he did last year while JJJ and Ayton became physical monsters over the summer. Maybe it's because Bags sees himself as a three and others saw themselves as future big men. Maybe it was because his circle thought he may still be growing and lifting would stunt his growth. Or maybe he needs to fire his trainers and hire new trainers. Whatever it was, if he comes in looking the same next year, questions about his priorities, circle, and work ethic will only get louder.
It may not seem as so, but I'm rooting for him. Time will tell.