The Harry Giles option conundrum

E

ESP47

All-Star
#271
#271
macadocious said:
Harry didn’t play more because of defensive mistakes. Rotation problems and incorrect hedges. Why Harry has such a short rope with those mistakes is baffling.
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He never gets the chance to work through them so I don't know how he can really improve on it. I'd get it if the Kings were in a tight playoff race, but they're not.

What's weird is he was actually defending pretty solidly to start the year but his offense was horrific. Lately he's been way more efficient on offense but his defense has been fairly poor. Ideally I'd like to see him get more minutes and eventually even things out and become a productive player but Luke Walton and company have other plans like micro managing the teams vets to a 32 win season and a late spot in the lottery while our young players are still chalked full of question marks.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#274
#274
Jkbiker said:
I am sorry Slab, but if Harry played better Defense maybe he would have got more min?
If he was shutting down Bam? I love Harry Offense, but not against the Zone
And also Having Bjelly out there as a Miami Zone Buster worked out well
So I can not argue with Bjelly 37 Min and Harry 13min
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Walton's defensive style requires certain abilities and those abilities are something we've not seen out of Harry. The Heat game wasn't the first time a team has specifically targeted Harry in pick and roll. Walton eventually had him switch and you can see where both he and Bagley differ. Bagley can scramble to the perimeter and Harry is obviously not used to that. He could actually learn a lot from Nemanja. Nemanja isn't a great switch defender but he's always one step ahead on his positioning or run outs to make up for a lack of acceleration. He also uses angles very well. Harry tends to over commit and gets blown by. This is the tough thing about having young players needing rope to learn while the rest of the team is trying to win. Especially young players who project as more offensive and production oriented than role types.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#275
#275
ESP47 said:
He never gets the chance to work through them so I don't know how he can really improve on it. I'd get it if the Kings were in a tight playoff race, but they're not.

What's weird is he was actually defending pretty solidly to start the year but his offense was horrific. Lately he's been way more efficient on offense but his defense has been fairly poor. Ideally I'd like to see him get more minutes and eventually even things out and become a productive player but Luke Walton and company have other plans like micro managing the teams vets to a 32 win season and a late spot in the lottery while our young players are still chalked full of question marks.
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I know Harry is still young, but he's not an 18 year old rookie anymore. It's still probably not fair but it is what it is. He's had time. Bagley is a little farther along in his physical development but the same goes for him, the lack of physical development with Harry is a concern. The memo is double stamped, in the modern NBA a player like Harry is going to have to play center to have much of a chance of sticking. Right now he's obviously skilled and by no means should be cast out of the leagues high potential young players but he's truly stuck in between 2 positions that right now isn't a very sexy thing in the eyes of NBA GM's. If Harry doesn't get much interest in FA next year I think his agent should really look overseas. Until the NBA corrects itself back closer to what it's been in the past then his game is much more suited for their style IMO. It will also give him a chance to mature and physically develop in a game much more physical than he'll see in the US. The NBA game is far too gimmicked these days against players like him and unless he can find a team where he can be an offensive hub to the point where you can look the other way on his negatives it will be tough for coaches to not do exactly what Walton does almost every game with him.
 
Kings_of_California

Kings_of_California

Starter
#276
#276
Showtime said:
Watching the game this morning and Giles for all the little things that make differences that MB3 doesn't. He makes the extra pass. He can make a good pass in general. He's unselfish. The team needs more guys like Giles on the team
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Apparently not because the coach or organization has decided that he can't get more than 14 minutes in the starting rotation with Dedmon, Holmes, Bagley and Mika not playing.

They're looking for any reason to pull him. One bad defensive play? Take him out immediately. It's sickening and I'm very tired of it.

Limited sample size but per 36 he's averaging about 16/10/4 on 54% shooting. I just don't get it.

Has Walton ever been explicitly asked why he refuses to give him more minutes? I need to know.
 
T

Turgenev

Starter
#277
#277
SacTownKid said:
I know Harry is still young, but he's not an 18 year old rookie anymore. It's still probably not fair but it is what it is. He's had time. Bagley is a little farther along in his physical development but the same goes for him, the lack of physical development with Harry is a concern. The memo is double stamped, in the modern NBA a player like Harry is going to have to play center to have much of a chance of sticking. Right now he's obviously skilled and by no means should be cast out of the leagues high potential young players but he's truly stuck in between 2 positions that right now isn't a very sexy thing in the eyes of NBA GM's. If Harry doesn't get much interest in FA next year I think his agent should really look overseas. Until the NBA corrects itself back closer to what it's been in the past then his game is much more suited for their style IMO. It will also give him a chance to mature and physically develop in a game much more physical than he'll see in the US. The NBA game is far too gimmicked these days against players like him and unless he can find a team where he can be an offensive hub to the point where you can look the other way on his negatives it will be tough for coaches to not do exactly what Walton does almost every game with him.
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I agree. It's a shame there isn't an international loan system available in basketball. Harry would benefit from playing regularly but he isn't going to get much out of the g league. A season in Europe or Australia would not be a bad thing.

To put a positive spin on it, playing 15 minutes against the opposition starting 5 is more valuable than garbage time or spot minutes. He can get an idea of where he is and identify the individual areas he needs to work on.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#279
#279
VF21 said:
Harry started. He played and contributed and THE KINGS WON and you still have to whine?? Good grief. We won the game, and we have another game tonight.
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It's only whining because you don't agree with it. But hey, go ahead and celebrate to your hearts desire. Another 32 win season with a bunch of question marks about our important players really is cause for celebration.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#280
#280
Kings_of_California said:
Apparently not because the coach or organization has decided that he can't get more than 14 minutes in the starting rotation with Dedmon, Holmes, Bagley and Mika not playing.

They're looking for any reason to pull him. One bad defensive play? Take him out immediately. It's sickening and I'm very tired of it.

Limited sample size but per 36 he's averaging about 16/10/4 on 54% shooting. I just don't get it.

Has Walton ever been explicitly asked why he refuses to give him more minutes? I need to know.
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If we play him to much he’s leaving if we don’t he’s leaving it’s lose lose the minute some idea decided let’s not pick up a cheap ass option
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#282
#282
ESP47 said:
It's only whining because you don't agree with it. But hey, go ahead and celebrate to your hearts desire. Another 32 win season with a bunch of question marks about our important players really is cause for celebration.
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Thanks. I will. And I'll treasur each moment of joy that I derive from the Kings.

Oh look. Harry is starting again. Damn it.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#285
#285
Jkbiker said:
I am sorry Slab, but if Harry played better Defense maybe he would have got more min?
If he was shutting down Bam? I love Harry Offense, but not against the Zone
And also Having Bjelly out there as a Miami Zone Buster worked out well
So I can not argue with Bjelly 37 Min and Harry 13min
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have you seen Marvin’s defense? Have you looked at our record? Playing 32 year old players 37 minutes at the expense of your young players so you can end up 14th in the lottery is how you miss the playoffs for 14 years straight.
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#286
#286
sactowndog said:
have you seen Marvin’s defense? Have you looked at our record? Playing 32 year old players 37 minutes at the expense of your young players so you can end up 14th in the lottery is how you miss the playoffs for 14 years straight.
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Plus; Harry has proven HE IMPROVES WITH REPS! That’s just not the fandom and HG tinged lenses talking; he gets better and he gets batter fast. I’m glad he got properly rewarded last night.
 
K

kingdivac

All-Star
#287
#287
Giles has looked very good on offense and so-so on defense, about where's he's often been. At this point the team needs the passing play and boost to offense more.....its how they've beaten 2 decent competitors back-to-back.

I am surprised they didn't pick up Giles contract at least what I see as a fair value at $4MM.
 
Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#288
#288
VF21 said:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1226362339387039744
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Who. Cares.

He's foul prone. So what? This team is supposed to be acquiring and developing talent. He needs burn to improve, because wins shouldn't have been the priority. But Vlade thought he had a super team and apparently was done with that part of rebuilding. Harry needs time against the pros to get better and he's showing improvement the more he plays. The last thing he needs is to be kept off the court if they want him to improve.
 
Jkbiker

Jkbiker

Starter
#289
#289
Way to go Harry! 27min Woot!!
He played better defense - more min
He got 12 rebounds - more min
Sas had some big dudes out there - more min
Only 2 fouls - more min
Belly had 4 fouls - more min

So now that you know what to do Harry - go get that playing time
Give him all the min he wants if he slows Giannis Monday!
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#291
#291
Showtime said:
Who. Cares.

He's foul prone. So what? This team is supposed to be acquiring and developing talent. He needs burn to improve, because wins shouldn't have been the priority. But Vlade thought he had a super team and apparently was done with that part of rebuilding. Harry needs time against the pros to get better and he's showing improvement the more he plays. The last thing he needs is to be kept off the court if they want him to improve.
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Dang. You're so wrapped up in your agenda you don't even realize what's being said. Kayte was complimenting Harry on playing that long with no foul. Apparently what Giles and Walton are working on TOGETHER is headed in the right direction.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#292
#292
If you're on the Twitter, be sure and check out all the positive feedback on Giles today. He worked his posterior off last night and for once the Sacramento media is united in their praise (something that doesnt happen too often). His love of Sacramento and the fans is obvious. It's got to be a good day for SLAB. ;)
 
KainLear

KainLear

Starter
#294
#294
How do you not love this man?
(got moved to this from the game thread and now it's a bit weird and out of context that I randomly just praising the man. I guess that's fine... haha

 
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Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#296
#296
VF21 said:
Dang. You're so wrapped up in your agenda you don't even realize what's being said. Kayte was complimenting Harry on playing that long with no foul. Apparently what Giles and Walton are working on TOGETHER is headed in the right direction.
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My agenda is wanting the team to succeed and Walton has admitted Giles doesn't stay on the court because of fouls on defense. So my point is valid: this team cannot afford to develop a young talent that way because sacrificing development time to win basketball games during a lottery development cycle is counter productive.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#298
#298
On Giles contract is it that we’re allowed to only go to 2.5 million? Or if we have cap space we can offer him more than that but wouldn’t count as bird rights
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#299
#299
Joshoua said:
On Giles contract is it that we’re allowed to only go to 2.5 million? Or if we have cap space we can offer him more than that but wouldn’t count as bird rights
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We can only offer him up to the value of the option we declined, which was about $4M. (I don't recall exactly, it was $3.99M or something.) That is regardless of cap space or MLE or anything else. Doesn't matter how much we can offer other players. We are not allowed to give Giles a raise relative to what his rookie deal would have been, because other teams abused that loophole in the past to give their players a raise before their rookie deal was "over".
 
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