Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)

[KingsFanSince85]

“I mean, I think it’s because of Euroleague; it’s different basketball,” Doncic said. “I was averaging in Europe — in the Spanish League — like 12 points (per game). And in Euroleague 14 (points per game). So it’s different basketball.”

And if anyone in an NBA front office would know that, it'd be Vlade and Peja. No reason for them to be scared off by averages in a league they know about.

That reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. There has to be something else that bothered them. Or they were the only execs that were in favor of him and everyone else was on the MB3 train and Vlade decided to be a team player and go with what the majority wanted.

That's really the only two things I can think of. Which are still utterly ridiculous.

 

[SacTownKid]

Not going to happen. This deadline showed us that the FO is perfectly content to run this core back next season and they bought into the "injuries" being the reason we're 12 games under .500. Off-season is going to be resigning Bogi, the 8-10th pick and the 2 2nd picks. Perhaps an MLE guy.

I still feel Vlade has done a solid job of putting talent together. On paper this team is deep, deep, deep. The problem is as time goes by it's deep in some ways that don't fit in with how this team has seen any sustained success worth building on. They have to commit to something other than most of what they have committed to so far. The rub is they are almost damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they play small and have success the smart move is still probably to see if Bagley and Holmes can work together later in the season, but that becomes harder if there is any shot at the playoffs at that point. I still think, injuries or not, it's inexcusable for this team to have performed the way it has with the tools provided to this coaching staff. There are few teams this season as well equipped with the kind of depth the Kings have. In some ways, you can figure those injuries ended up salvaging something. Without Holmes going down, Dedmon likely becomes the boat anchor of boat anchors. It also probably saved more locker room mess. Once and for all, this is why you can't sign too many players looking to play without the ability to make it actually work on the floor. There are only so many minutes per game.

 

[Livinthedream]

Not going to happen. This deadline showed us that the FO is perfectly content to run this core back next season and they bought into the "injuries" being the reason we're 12 games under .500. Off-season is going to be resigning Bogi, the 8-10th pick and the 2 2nd picks. Perhaps an MLE guy.

Or Vlade and co. are getting fired at the end of the season and ownership doesn't want them touching anything on their way out.

 

[Livinthedream]

I still feel Vlade has done a solid job of putting talent together. On paper this team is deep, deep, deep. The problem is as time goes by it's deep in some ways that don't fit in with how this team has seen any sustained success worth building on. They have to commit to something other than most of what they have committed to so far. The rub is they are almost damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they play small and have success the smart move is still probably to see if Bagley and Holmes can work together later in the season, but that becomes harder if there is any shot at the playoffs at that point. I still think, injuries or not, it's inexcusable for this team to have performed the way it has with the tools provided to this coaching staff. There are few teams this season as well equipped with the kind of depth the Kings have. In some ways, you can figure those injuries ended up salvaging something. Without Holmes going down, Dedmon likely becomes the boat anchor of boat anchors. It also probably saved more locker room mess. Once and for all, this is why you can't sign too many players looking to play without the ability to make it actually work on the floor. There are only so many minutes per game.

The biggest issue is when Bagley broke his hand the first game. The bench wasn't built like the intended starting 5. Meaning, Bjelica is a totally different player than Marvin, so when Marvin went down, so did the whole game plan. Holmes worked really well with Bjelica and the rest is history. Burrying Dedmon all but sealed the fate for Bagley to have to change his game to match the new plan.

Obviously Holmes is a good player and we're happy to have him, but in reality he didn't really fit the mold of what the Kings were doing. He was meant to come in and give some physical minutes when called upon. Not to be a starter. Rewarding Holmes with a starting position for playing well just threw the whole offseason out the window. Kudos to Holmes for forcing that. But maybe the FO needs to make up its mind on what kind of team they want to be.

 

[SacTownKid]

The biggest issue is when Bagley broke his hand the first game. The bench wasn't built like the intended starting 5. Meaning, Bjelica is a totally different player than Marvin, so when Marvin went down, so did the whole game plan. Holmes worked really well with Bjelica and the rest is history. Burrying Dedmon all but sealed the fate for Bagley to have to change his game to match the new plan.

Obviously Holmes is a good player and we're happy to have him, but in reality he didn't really fit the mold of what the Kings were doing. He was meant to come in and give some physical minutes when called upon. Not to be a starter. Rewarding Holmes with a starting position for playing well just threw the whole offseason out the window. Kudos to Holmes for forcing that. But maybe the FO needs to make up its mind on what kind of team they want to be.

Holmes can fit if the idea is to keep the paint clear and run pick and roll with he and Fox. Obviously in theory it's not as great as having a 3 point shooter running it with Fox but it should still be quite effective. That's where Holmes's versatility on defense could make up for some loss of offensive efficiency though. This is the other problem however. We've seen enough Marvin this season and Walton has used almost every combo you can think of. This team is actually better with Bjelica at center according to recent advanced stats. Is it that he's so much better than Bagley as a talent? Probably not, my guess is that is involves playing Barnes at the 4 and oh yeah, having crazy shooting ability around Fox who since he's had space is on a tear. Also, the team started to head down hill prior to Bagley even coming back. In the end, we're both seeing that as is, this likely isn't going to work unless something is altered either on the bench via player movement, or stylistic change.

 

[Livinthedream]

Holmes can fit if the idea is to keep the paint clear and run pick and roll with he and Fox. Obviously in theory it's not as great as having a 3 point shooter running it with Fox but it should still be quite effective. That's where Holmes's versatility on defense could make up for some loss of offensive efficiency though. This is the other problem however. We've seen enough Marvin this season and Walton has used almost every combo you can think of. This team is actually better with Bjelica at center according to recent advanced stats. Is it that he's so much better than Bagley as a talent? Probably not, my guess is that is involves playing Barnes at the 4 and oh yeah, having crazy shooting ability around Fox who since he's had space is on a tear. Also, the team started to head down hill prior to Bagley even coming back. In the end, we're both seeing that as is, this likely isn't going to work unless something is altered either on the bench via player movement, or stylistic change.

Yeah. We're seeing the same thing. If Barnes and Dedmon were more effective from beyond the arc this year, there would be more combinations that work with Bagley.

 

[fansinceday1]

So grant won't give vlade a grade because he has not seen been able to see what vlade has put together this year. He said if the kings stay relatively healthy and they don't make the playoffs then vlade needs to go.

The injury excuse can be used to no end. At this point vlade will always be the kings GM.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

It kind of feels like we’re going to need to be the western version of the Cavs to ever really win anything: have a local kid become a top 10 all-time talent, force his way home, and create his own agency to help recruit/force other top talents to the Kings.

 

[kb02]

So grant won't give vlade a grade because he has not seen been able to see what vlade has put together this year. He said if the kings stay relatively healthy and they don't make the playoffs then vlade needs to go.

The injury excuse can be used to no end. At this point vlade will always be the kings GM.

Yea, I'm listening. And the whole injury thing on repeat is getting really annoying. No mention of the 2/4 FA failures, Buddy's regression, the coaching change, & the fact that when Bags was healthy, he was mostly a net negative.

 

[fansinceday1]

"Sacramento fans need to take their friggin blinders off. This team has injuries."

Am i missing something? Is this the first time in 14 years the kings have had injuries?

And there we go, he trashes Ariza, because he is no longer here.

"the number one reason why the kings are not good this year is because of injuries." What a load of sh**.

 

[The Effort Police]

So grant won't give vlade a grade because he has not seen been able to see what vlade has put together this year. He said if the kings stay relatively healthy and they don't make the playoffs then vlade needs to go.

The injury excuse can be used to no end. At this point vlade will always be the kings GM.

Even without the injury excuse, the reason Vlade can remain the team's GM is because he was a PR hire.

Vivek took a back seat but hired an incompetent GM. If the choice was between a relative unknown with the right resume and Vlade I still think Vivek would choose Vlade. There is never a chance that the media and fanbase will be 100% against Vlade like it was for Pete D, because he's Vlade. Vivek gets to soothe his own ego by being able to say he stepped away from basketball decisions, and he gets to cover his own rear end at the same time.

As long as Vlade is the one in the GM seat, he can always continue to do that.

 

[jellyfish]

Yea, I'm listening. And the whole injury thing on repeat is getting really annoying. No mention of the 2/4 FA failures, Buddy's regression, the coaching change, & the fact that when Bags was healthy, he was mostly a net negative.

I would not consider Cojo as a success in particular at his price for a back up PG.

 

[ESP47]

"Sacramento fans need to take their friggin blinders off. This team has injuries."

Am i missing something? Is this the first time in 14 years the kings have had injuries?

And there we go, he trashes Ariza, because he is no longer here.

"the number one reason why the kings are not good this year is because of injuries." What a load of sh**.

Grant totally ignores that the Kings were almost .500 with Fox out and the fact that Bagley being out actually helps the Kings because he's been a net negative player and one of the worst in the NBA this year.

Holmes being out has had a bit of an impact and Bogdan being out had an impact but not enough to be the difference maker in this team making the playoffs.

 

[jellyfish]

Grant totally ignores that the Kings were almost .500 with Fox out and the fact that Bagley being out actually helps the Kings because he's been a net negative player and one of the worst in the NBA this year.

Holmes being out has had a bit of an impact and Bogdan being out had an impact but not enough to be the difference maker in this team making the playoffs.

Sadly I think the injuries are the worst of all possible outcomes, it allows the delusions to continue while giving the Kings false hope since the team looked good with them. The injuries have stopped a complete rebuild had Bagley been health I'm pretty sure we would have traded more people by now. We would also be in the box seat for a #1 pick.

 

[HebrewHammer]

Even without the injury excuse, the reason Vlade can remain the team's GM is because he was a PR hire.

Vivek took a back seat but hired an incompetent GM. If the choice was between a relative unknown with the right resume and Vlade I still think Vivek would choose Vlade. There is never a chance that the media and fanbase will be 100% against Vlade like it was for Pete D, because he's Vlade. Vivek gets to soothe his own ego by being able to say he stepped away from basketball decisions, and he gets to cover his own rear end at the same time.

As long as Vlade is the one in the GM seat, he can always continue to do that.

Did Vivek really take a backseat? Or did he just rid his FO of dissenting opinions (Joerger) and leaks and goes about his meddling a bit smarter?
I don’t see a leopard changing its spots that easily.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Barring any more injury that could last more than a week to Bagley, Holmes, or any of the key players, I think the Kings can still take a 41 win season. Mika is like a tall Jon Brockman and easily has more energy than Dedmon. So hope he gets signed for the whole season.

And I hope bringing in another Duke star in Jabari would give Bagley a clear hint what happens to Duke stars when they act like their legs are made of glass. But I do hope Jabari revives some part of his career here in Sac and stay. He can provide the range that Bjelica brings. Especially on a Nemanja off nights, no one else actually gets respected from beyond the arc and teams just crowd on Buddy.

Bazemore is catching up with the guys is turning to be more potent energy bunny.
Bogi stayed and I hope he plays consistent now that there more clearer signs of him getting his money in Sac.
That goes to Barnes as well.

Overall, I think we beefed up the bench after mid season, thanks to Holmes surprise season and becoming a legit starter.
Cojo shooting more threes now is a legit bench beef itself.

A side note: Sun-Kings alliance is slowly turning into something now. First was Holmes, now here comes Alex Len. I hope Len gets what Holmes was eating after arriving in Sacramento.

And for now, Vlade stays for me at least for the season and with 41 win still reachable. Crossing my fingers on a turn around for the better.

 

[SLAB]

^^^^ They cut Mika

 

[KingsFanSince85]

So grant won't give vlade a grade because he has not seen been able to see what vlade has put together this year. He said if the kings stay relatively healthy and they don't make the playoffs then vlade needs to go.

The injury excuse can be used to no end. At this point vlade will always be the kings GM.

Yeah, I’m with you here. All I can say is that’s Peaches for you. He’s extremely loyal to his friends but has no problem being overly critical of those he doesn’t like and/or those that don’t like him.

And you’re also right — since MB3 is likely to be chronically injured and Bogdanovic dinged up, the incomplete grade excuse will continually be played.

 

[HebrewHammer]

Yeah, I’m with you here. All I can say is that’s Peaches for you. He’s extremely loyal to his friends but has no problem being overly critical of those he doesn’t like and/or those that don’t like him.

And you’re also right — since MB3 is likely to be chronically injured and Bogdanovic dinged up, the incomplete grade excuse will continually be played.

Napear is only extremely loyal to Napear. He will go to ridiculous lengths to defend players, only to turn around and rip into them once they are gone and/or out of favor with the FO. Hell, Napear was defending the Maloofs when they planned a relocation to Virginia Beach. Only once he understood that the franchise would be sold to Seattle and he would be out of a job, he turned around.

He is a shill who ridicules and belittles people, and many of his listeners eat that up.
Napear is only useful as a mouthpiece, so you listen to him to understand the excuses this FO tells itself. IMO.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Napear is only extremely loyal to Napear. He will go to ridiculous lengths to defend players, only to turn around and rip into them once they are gone and/or out of favor with the FO. Hell, Napear was defending the Maloofs when they planned a relocation to Virginia Beach. Only once he understood that the franchise would be sold to Seattle and he would be out of a job, he turned around.

He is a shill who ridicules and belittles people, and many of his listeners eat that up.
Napear is only useful as a mouthpiece, so you listen to him to understand the excuses this FO tells itself. IMO.

You give him more respect than I do. I just refer to him as Peaches. Because of all the reasons you pointed out, and more. He’s a turncoat MF, pure and simple.

 

[sactowndog]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/continuity.html

above is the link on roster turnover. Look at the consistently high turnover throughout Vlade’s tenure. Consistently high turnover is the sign of bad management.

 

[sactowndog]

Barring any more injury that could last more than a week to Bagley, Holmes, or any of the key players, I think the Kings can still take a 41 win season. Mika is like a tall Jon Brockman and easily has more energy than Dedmon. So hope he gets signed for the whole season.

And I hope bringing in another Duke star in Jabari would give Bagley a clear hint what happens to Duke stars when they act like their legs are made of glass. But I do hope Jabari revives some part of his career here in Sac and stay. He can provide the range that Bjelica brings. Especially on a Nemanja off nights, no one else actually gets respected from beyond the arc and teams just crowd on Buddy.

Bazemore is catching up with the guys is turning to be more potent energy bunny.
Bogi stayed and I hope he plays consistent now that there more clearer signs of him getting his money in Sac.
That goes to Barnes as well.

Overall, I think we beefed up the bench after mid season, thanks to Holmes surprise season and becoming a legit starter.
Cojo shooting more threes now is a legit bench beef itself.

A side note: Sun-Kings alliance is slowly turning into something now. First was Holmes, now here comes Alex Len. I hope Len gets what Holmes was eating after arriving in Sacramento.

And for now, Vlade stays for me at least for the season and with 41 win still reachable. Crossing my fingers on a turn around for the better.

sorry but Parker is a poor 3 point shooter. He and Bags are very similar.

 

[whozit]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/continuity.html

above is the link on roster turnover. Look at the consistently high turnover throughout Vlade’s tenure. Consistently high turnover is the sign of bad management.

Or fickle ownership or a combination of both..........

 

[Peja]

I don't think Vlade has done a particularly good job with this time over the past several years. We're in the constant rebuilding, we are not even close to being a playoff team and we keep betting on individual young players and trying to develop them instead of developing the team.

Right now we have an All Star caliber point guard (Fox), a solid but inconsistent shooter (Buddy) and a big man who may or may not become elite player in the future (Bagley). The rest are role players, older and younger, with no real upside or ability to move this team to another level.

It's about time we let Vlade go and try different approach.

 

[HebrewHammer]

It's about time we let Vlade go and try different approach.

Wow. Even Peja is turning his back on Vlade!

 

[Showtime]

I'm wondering at this point how many people are still supporting Vlade, and how many are in the "Yeah we agree he's not the guy to lead us to success, but the team's options are slim with those contracts" camp.

 

[Showtime]

Taking the deal with NYC to get Porz for Fox and drafting LD would have resulted in this lineup:

Bogi
Buddy
LD
Porz
Holmes

That's a top offensive team with LD as point-foward surrounded by shooters and a dog at C. That team makes the playoffs. The idea that you don't want to take away from Fox so you sacrifice a HOF talent is a decision worth losing one's career over. Look at what Young is doing. He's better than Fox, but ATL still isn't winning basketball games. So the concept that you keep the ball in his hands and that will result in a successful team even if he's that good is STILL wrong.

 

[ESP47]

Taking the deal with NYC to get Porz for Fox and drafting LD would have resulted in this lineup:

Bogi
Buddy
LD
Porz
Holmes

That's a top offensive team with LD as point-foward surrounded by shooters and a dog at C. That team makes the playoffs. The idea that you don't want to take away from Fox so you sacrifice a HOF talent is a decision worth losing one's career over. Look at what Young is doing. He's better than Fox, but ATL still isn't winning basketball games. So the concept that you keep the ball in his hands and that will result in a successful team even if he's that good is STILL wrong.

Did you want the Kings to trade Fox for Porzingis at the time? That's not a trade that 90% of Kings fans would have made at the time so I'm not really a big fan of revisionist history when it comes to things like that.

Kind of like wanting to draft Mitchell with the 10th pick. Only Blob and a couple other posters on this site can really say that because they were calling for him before the draft. The rest of us didn't want to draft a combo guard who was semi redundant to what we thought would be our two best players in Fox and Hield. I certainly wish Vlade would have drafted Mitchell but I can't really complain about it since I wouldn't have drafted him myself at the time.

 

[TTown Kings]

41 wins. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Do you even watch the games?

 

[Joshoua]

Did you want the Kings to trade Fox for Porzingis at the time? That's not a trade that 90% of Kings fans would have made at the time so I'm not really a big fan of revisionist history when it comes to things like that.

Kind of like wanting to draft Mitchell with the 10th pick. Only Blob and a couple other posters on this site can really say that because they were calling for him before the draft. The rest of us didn't want to draft a combo guard who was semi redundant to what we thought would be our two best players in Fox and Hield. I certainly wish Vlade would have drafted Mitchell but I can't really complain about it since I wouldn't have drafted him myself at the time.

I usually don’t do the 20/20 hindsight but I personally wanted for traded to build around or 2nd pick.