Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)

[ockingsfan]

For as much as I liked Vlade as a player, he is a terrible GM.

He totally blew his opportunity to change the fate of this organization by passing on Doncic, while almost every Kings fan was openly begging him to draft Doncic.

Almost none of his moves have worked out except for Holmes and Fox and he can’t seem to stay on the court.

This team stinks and I think if Vlade was a man of his word, he should step aside by season’s end, so the Kings can get a competent talent evaluator hired as GM for our lottery pick this coming draft.

 

[PHXSUNSFAN]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...r-off-in-two-years-if-im-wrong-ill-step-down/

Do you guys think Vlade will uphold his promise of stepping down from the article above?

 

[The Effort Police]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...r-off-in-two-years-if-im-wrong-ill-step-down/

Do you guys think Vlade will uphold his promise of stepping down from the article above?

No.

 

[gunks]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...r-off-in-two-years-if-im-wrong-ill-step-down/

Do you guys think Vlade will uphold his promise of stepping down from the article above?

Step down? Dude passed on Luka, if anything he should commit seppuku.

 

[Albatros]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...r-off-in-two-years-if-im-wrong-ill-step-down/

Do you guys think Vlade will uphold his promise of stepping down from the article above?

He probably thinks it's all going well. Grant is the mouthpiece of the org. Listen to him for their inner most thoughts.

 

[Chupacabra]

For as much as I liked Vlade as a player, he is a terrible GM.

He totally blew his opportunity to change the fate of this organization by passing on Doncic, while almost every Kings fan was openly begging him to draft Doncic.

Almost none of his moves have worked out except for Holmes and Fox and he can’t seem to stay on the court.

This team stinks and I think if Vlade was a man of his word, he should step aside by season’s end, so the Kings can get a competent talent evaluator hired as GM for our lottery pick this coming draft.

Granted he did whif on passing up Doncic. I too was in the Doncic camp pre-draft, but listening to the fan base is not something that GMs are tasked with doing. The Doncic-centric criticism of Vlade is a case of hindsight being 20-20; no one thought he would be a top player in the league in year two. On this site in particular, that line of criticism borders on hysteria. Bagley missing games due to injury this year (he played great last year), and Doncic's emergence as a superstar has completely blinded a big chunk of people on this site as it pertains to making an objective assessment as to how Vlade has performed as a GM.

It's also the case that most of you look at drafting in a vacuum; late draft picks are shinier when they play for winning teams. A lot of the stock that some of you are putting into players drafted later by good teams are largely influenced by how good those teams already are. While losing teams, like us, get exponentially less credit for hitting on late draft picks. 'The Raptors are good and drafted Norman Powell and OG Anunoby, the Kings are bad and drafted Marvin Bagley and Justin James, therefor the Raptors are very good at drafting and the Kings are very bad at it' is not a sound argument. True that Papagiannis was an absolutely horrible draft pick (possibly Vlade's worst move), but Justin Jackson was playing pretty well right before we traded him. Everyone gushed over Harry Giles last year. Another good example of Vlade displaying good decision making on drafting is Justin James, who looks like an absolute steal of a pick, and was considered by most to be a hilarious reach.

I'm not at all interested in arguing about any of this with any of you who will not give credit where it is due. Everyone was pleased last year when the going was good. Six games ago most of this criticism was relegated to staying in the minds of many who are now vocal about it.

 

[Gguod]

The Doncic-centric criticism of Vlade is a case of hindsight being 20-20; no one thought he would be a top player in the league in year two. On this site in particular, that line of criticism borders on hysteria. Bagley missing games due to injury this year (he played great last year), and Doncic's emergence as a superstar has completely blinded a big chunk of people on this site as it pertains to making an objective assessment as to how Vlade has performed as a GM.

Its definetly not hindsight 20-20 because even pre draft Doncic was the obvious pick. If you want go look back at those pre draft threads, its filled with great analysis on why Doncic should be the obvious choice at 2 if hes available. It really made me laugh when Suns passed on him but it made me laugh and cry when we did it too. It was a huge mistake right that second, not a "well we have to wait for X-amount of years". Based on all the data and knowledge on the value of defensively and bbiq challenged big men versus high bbiq ball handling wing, its just bad if you manage to choose wrong and there is no excuses for a guy that gets paid 5mil/year to make those choices.

Also passing on Luka and missing on a lot of other picks is definetly not the only reason why Vlade has been bad. Its the combination of everything. Not getting any extra future assets while rebuilding even when there were a lot of those cap dump trades available, giving out huge bad contracts to vets when we are rebuilding, below average drafting, making the philly trade that was one of the worst trades in this decade ect.

And all those mistakes lead to this current situation. After trading Boogie we had a chance to rebuild, add a lot of extra picks and remain flexible as long as we are ready to compete. Instead we are in a situation where we dont have nearly enough talent to be any kind of serious contender, we have a hard time to add talent since we have no flexibility in our cap since we started making win now moves like trading for Barnes and giving him truckload of money. Also we dont have any extra future assets that could be used as either a chance to get a potential difference maker, as a trade piece for a real difference maker or as cost controlled contributor while being a trade asset.

I can list you all the good free agent contracts that Vlade has signed and all the good draft picks he chose but it doenst change the fact that he has been a bad GM

 

[Showtime]

Granted he did whif on passing up Doncic. I too was in the Doncic camp pre-draft, but listening to the fan base is not something that GMs are tasked with doing. The Doncic-centric criticism of Vlade is a case of hindsight being 20-20; no one thought he would be a top player in the league in year two. On this site in particular, that line of criticism borders on hysteria. Bagley missing games due to injury this year (he played great last year), and Doncic's emergence as a superstar has completely blinded a big chunk of people on this site as it pertains to making an objective assessment as to how Vlade has performed as a GM.

It's also the case that most of you look at drafting in a vacuum; late draft picks are shinier when they play for winning teams. A lot of the stock that some of you are putting into players drafted later by good teams are largely influenced by how good those teams already are. While losing teams, like us, get exponentially less credit for hitting on late draft picks. 'The Raptors are good and drafted Norman Powell and OG Anunoby, the Kings are bad and drafted Marvin Bagley and Justin James, therefor the Raptors are very good at drafting and the Kings are very bad at it' is not a sound argument. True that Papagiannis was an absolutely horrible draft pick (possibly Vlade's worst move), but Justin Jackson was playing pretty well right before we traded him. Everyone gushed over Harry Giles last year. Another good example of Vlade displaying good decision making on drafting is Justin James, who looks like an absolute steal of a pick, and was considered by most to be a hilarious reach.

I'm not at all interested in arguing about any of this with any of you who will not give credit where it is due. Everyone was pleased last year when the going was good. Six games ago most of this criticism was relegated to staying in the minds of many who are now vocal about it.

I can't tell if this post is making the point that people ignore problems when winning or defending vlade's drafting.

 

[Chupacabra]

I can't tell if this post is making the point that people ignore problems when winning or defending vlade's drafting.

It makes the point that people's perception of drafting is influenced by more than how good the players are.

 

[sergmatt]

It makes the point that people's perception of drafting is influenced by more than how good the players are.

It's not just about the Bagley draft. As mentioned earlier multiple times in this thread, Vlade has had 5 years worth of drafts and 8 first round selections along with one very early second round selection.

In those 9 picks he's gotten it right just one time. He's badly missed on most of the other 8.

How do you explain that?

 

[pshn80]

I’ve read most of the posts on this last page. They all are knocking Vlade.

I am a great supporter of Vlade as general manager - not as a defender but as a supporter. I have no problem with actions he’s taken. I’m still hoping the injuries subside and is replaced by a little good fortune.

 

[sergmatt]

I have no problem with actions he’s taken.

You have no problem with getting 1 draft pick right out of 9?

 

[Chupacabra]

It's not just about the Bagley draft. As mentioned earlier multiple times in this thread, Vlade has had 5 years worth of drafts and 8 first round selections along with one very early second round selection.

In those 9 picks he's gotten it right just one time. He's badly missed on most of the other 8.

How do you explain that?

I don't explain it because I disagree with your 1/9 evaluation.

 

[sergmatt]

I don't explain it because I disagree with your 1/9 evaluation.

But provide no evidence of how or why you disagree. Cute.

 

[Showtime]

I don't explain it because I disagree with your 1/9 evaluation.

How many lottery picks are serviceable players for the kings? How many were key assets in obtaining others? The kings pick lottery guys, and either they are out of the league at the end of their rookie deals, or are throw ins for a bad trade. How is that evaluation process showing you Vlade isn't bad with drafting?

 

[Chupacabra]

But provide no evidence of how or why you disagree. Cute.

The post of mine that you replied to has examples.

 

[sergmatt]

The post of mine that you replied to has examples.

Basically your only support of Vlade is Justin James who we really don't know that much about yet.

WCS off the team and maybe out of the league in a year or two. Papagiannis and Malachi both out of the league. Mason nearly out of the league.

Justin Jackson sucks and was a terrible pick. Skal I do think was a good pick in context and is actually showing a little bit this year but Vlade gave up on him early and traded him for Swanigan who sucks and will be out of the league soon.

Giles is the big mystery but Vlade and the organization already gave up on him and he'll be gone next year so regardless of what he does it's a bad pick because he either can't play or he'll do well for someone else with nothing in return.

Finally that brings us to Bagley who will be a really good player and maybe even an all-star but doesn't matter when you went against the grain and picked him over a perrenial MVP candidate.

But hey Fox was a good pick.....

 

[steelevt]

You have no problem with getting 1 draft pick right out of 9?

Mavs last few 1st round picks
Trae/Luka
Dennis smith
Justin anderson
Kelly olynek
Tyler Zeller
Jordan hamilton
And a few years with no 1st rounders

I’m not a mavs fan so I don’t know what they got for the years they traded their 1st but besides Luka, I don’t think any of them are still with the team. Sometimes larger markets get the luxury of free agents to mask poor drafting or trading away players that become good players.

 

[sergmatt]

Mavs last few 1st round picks
Trae/Luka
Dennis smith
Justin anderson
Kelly olynek
Tyler Zeller
Jordan hamilton
And a few years with no 1st rounders

Yeah and all those bad drafts explains why the Mavs have been spinning their wheels going nowhere the last several years before they maneuvered for [REDACTED].

[REDACTED] just happens to be such an incredible player that he more than makes up for most of those bad selections.

 

[Chupacabra]

How many lottery picks are serviceable players for the kings? How many were key assets in obtaining others? The kings pick lottery guys, and either they are out of the league at the end of their rookie deals, or are throw ins for a bad trade. How is that evaluation process showing you Vlade isn't bad with drafting?

Fox was a good pick. Bagley was a good pick. Jackson was an ok pick. Giles was a pretty good pick. Justin James was a good pick. While they didn't work out, I don't take issue with the WCS pick, nor the Skal pick. The Papa G pick was awful. The Frank Mason pick seems lazy. The Malachi pick was not good. The body of work isn't amazing, but it's not bad.

Vlade also gets the credit for Kings players that we didn't draft. Some of these acquisitions were steals. How come no one wants to beat up every other GM for missing out on Richaun Holmes, or not snatching away Bogdon?

 

[ESP47]

Mavs last few 1st round picks
Trae/Luka
Dennis smith
Justin anderson
Kelly olynek
Tyler Zeller
Jordan hamilton
And a few years with no 1st rounders

I’m not a mavs fan so I don’t know what they got for the years they traded their 1st but besides Luka, I don’t think any of them are still with the team. Sometimes larger markets get the luxury of free agents to mask poor drafting or trading away players that become good players.

They haven't drafted all that great either but they do have a better excuse than the Kings since they've only had two lottery picks in Luka and Smith Jr. Olynyk was mid teens I believe (terrible trade for them) and everyone else was back half of the draft since they were a playoff team for so long.

 

[sergmatt]

Fox was a good pick. Bagley was a good pick. Jackson was an ok pick. Giles was a pretty good pick. Justin James was a good pick.

Justin Jackson was not an ok pick. He's garbage. Look up his stats. If Giles was a good pick then why have they given up on him? Declining a lowly 4 million option on Giles absolutely means they gave up on him.

Bagley was not a good pick when you go against the grain and select him over the guy who looks to be a hall of famer.

And the Justin James stuff is just embarrassing. Kid has played in just 15 games in sporadic minutes. I like what I see so far but he's hardly a "win" for Vlade at this stage.

 

[John Galt]

Granted he did whif on passing up Doncic. I too was in the Doncic camp pre-draft, but listening to the fan base is not something that GMs are tasked with doing. The Doncic-centric criticism of Vlade is a case of hindsight being 20-20; no one thought he would be a top player in the league in year two. On this site in particular, that line of criticism borders on hysteria. Bagley missing games due to injury this year (he played great last year), and Doncic's emergence as a superstar has completely blinded a big chunk of people on this site as it pertains to making an objective assessment as to how Vlade has performed as a GM.

It's also the case that most of you look at drafting in a vacuum; late draft picks are shinier when they play for winning teams. A lot of the stock that some of you are putting into players drafted later by good teams are largely influenced by how good those teams already are. While losing teams, like us, get exponentially less credit for hitting on late draft picks. 'The Raptors are good and drafted Norman Powell and OG Anunoby, the Kings are bad and drafted Marvin Bagley and Justin James, therefor the Raptors are very good at drafting and the Kings are very bad at it' is not a sound argument. True that Papagiannis was an absolutely horrible draft pick (possibly Vlade's worst move), but Justin Jackson was playing pretty well right before we traded him. Everyone gushed over Harry Giles last year. Another good example of Vlade displaying good decision making on drafting is Justin James, who looks like an absolute steal of a pick, and was considered by most to be a hilarious reach.

I'm not at all interested in arguing about any of this with any of you who will not give credit where it is due. Everyone was pleased last year when the going was good. Six games ago most of this criticism was relegated to staying in the minds of many who are now vocal about it.

Doncic is not 20-20 hindsight.

Giannis, Siakam, Booker, Jokic - these are examples of 20-20 hindsight, where a wizard with special powers could have snatched them sooner than they were taken.

Donic was the no-brainer pick. Passing on him was contrarian and risky.

Atlanta gets a pass, their guy worked out.

Vlade took a risk - a huge risk, whiffed, did not get bailed out by crazy lottery luck like he usually did... and that's that.

 

[steelevt]

Yeah and all those bad drafts explains why the Mavs have been spinning their wheels going nowhere the last several years before they maneuvered for [REDACTED].

[REDACTED] just happens to be such an incredible player that he more than makes up for most of those bad selections.

So basically all you need is that 1 pick to help get you out of the cellar. I’m hoping fox can do it but the injury delayed it. Yes fox and Luka would have been awesome but if Fox becomes what we all know he can become, we will be in the position the mavs are in now.

 

[Chupacabra]

Doncic is not 20-20 hindsight.

Giannis, Siakam, Booker, Jokic - these are examples of 20-20 hindsight, where a wizard with special powers could have snatched them sooner than they were taken.

Donic was the no-brainer pick. Passing on him was contrarian and risky.

Atlanta gets a pass, their guy worked out.

Vlade took a risk - a huge risk, whiffed, did not get bailed out by crazy lottery luck like he usually did... and that's that.

Do a search for 2018 NBA mock draft.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Doncic is not 20-20 hindsight.

Giannis, Siakam, Booker, Jokic - these are examples of 20-20 hindsight, where a wizard with special powers could have snatched them sooner than they were taken.

Donic was the no-brainer pick. Passing on him was contrarian and risky.

Atlanta gets a pass, their guy worked out.

Vlade took a risk - a huge risk, whiffed, did not get bailed out by crazy lottery luck like he usually did... and that's that.

I looked up this new stat called wins & losses and it turns out Trae Young is 6-27 and dead last in the East. They turned their extra pick into Cam Reddish. Schlenk should be getting excoriated worse than Vlade. Schlenk was the capologist for Golden State, if memory serves—there are no sure things in GM hires unless one can entice Ujiri.

 

[The Effort Police]

After all this, the excuses for Vlade are the fact that we don't have a time machine and that Vivek might be even worse...

 

[The Effort Police]

Do a search for 2018 NBA mock draft.

Just gonna put this here again, courtesy of sergmatt.

 

[SLAB]

Do a search for 2018 NBA mock draft.

You mean the ones that was pretty much unanimously Ayton/Luka all season long until about 2 weeks before the draft when whispers hit the streets Vlade was crazy enough not to take him?

 

[burekijogurt]

Just gonna put this here again, courtesy of sergmatt. View attachment 9444

Segmatt also added in his original post that this was as of May 15th 2018. Here is an aggregation from June 6th from HoopsHype



What I find interesting about this June 6th aggregation (original at https://hoopshype.com/2018/06/06/nba-mock-draft-consensu-big-board-luka-doncic/) is that ESPN for example had Luka at 4 as well as SI. The reason I say this is interesting is because that cannot be explained by "people realized Kings would draft Bagley at 2 so they adjusted their draft boards, but everyone else will draft Luka as high as they can".