Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)

[sergmatt]

on all the draft boards pre draft ive seen bagley was either 2 or 3, doubt he would have been available 2-3 spots later. also i recently posted a summary of draft boards couple of weeks beford the draft and Luka was anywhere from 2-5. that cannot all be contributed to the board publishers trying to be correct given some rumblings Kings were gonna pick Bagley. and also there was no complete outrage and bad grades by the talking heads post draft that would suggest Vlade went against some clear consensus. I was as dissapointed as anyone when it happened, but what I remember pre draft does not match the descriptions of a clear no brainer everyone agrees scenario where Vlade does the opposite..

I think we've talked about this before but in the last 2-3 weeks before the draft I started seeing Bagley jump up to #2 on most of the draft boards because it was really no secret that's who the Kings wanted. Multiple media outlets were reporting that and suddenly Grant/Doug had a fascination with Bagley on the radio (prior to that they had been infatuated with Michael Porter). Google search mock drafts from June right before the draft and they're much different than the ones in the Spring.

I just went through 9 Mock Drafts from late April and May 2018 and Bagley appeared as the #2 Pick in 2 of the 9. Luka was the #1 or #2 Overall Pick in 7 of the 9. Again this was in late April and early May.

Bagley was #3 in most of the mocks where Ayton and Doncic went 1/2. I don't think ATL would have taken Bagley at #3 since they loved Trae so much. I think that means Bagley would have gone #4 or #5 had the Kings taken [REDACTED] at #2.

 

[sergmatt]

This is from May 15th, 2018 posted from one of the Editors of The Ringer. As you can see the mock drafts were much different 4-6 weeks pre draft.

 

[Showtime]

I love how people think Bagley was the only bad move Vlade ever made. No, that's just the most recent and glaring whiff on a potential HOF player. Look at how many guys he picked that went nowhere and are either riding the pine with other teams or are out of the league completely. He can't even get servicable rotation guys, let alone score on a home run pick.

 

[burekijogurt]

I think we've talked about this before but in the last 2-3 weeks before the draft I started seeing Bagley jump up to #2 on most of the draft boards because it was really no secret that's who the Kings wanted. Multiple media outlets were reporting that and suddenly Grant/Doug had a fascination with Bagley on the radio (prior to that they had been infatuated with Michael Porter). Google search mock drafts from June right before the draft and they're much different than the ones in the Spring.

I just went through 9 Mock Drafts from late April and May 2018 and Bagley appeared as the #2 Pick in 2 of the 9. Luka was the #1 or #2 Overall Pick in 7 of the 9. Again this was in late April and early May.

Bagley was #3 in most of the mocks where Ayton and Doncic went 1/2. I don't think ATL would have taken Bagley at #3 since they loved Trae so much. I think that means Bagley would have gone #4 or #5 had the Kings taken [REDACTED] at #2.

yeah it was definitely Luka early on but I think he did lose some standing after the Euroleague F4. maybe that was all smokescreens, adjustements to info leaking out of King's org, but some of it was the result of all eyes on him during the F4 and ACB playoffs where he was not having his best performances (I know the rest were dribbling around chairs @Joshoua ).

 

[burekijogurt]

This is from May 15th, 2018 posted from one of the Editors of The Ringer. As you can see the mock drafts were much different 4-6 weeks pre draft.

yeah this is right before the Euroleague F4 which started on 18th of May, that's the adjustment I'm talking about. But yeah, it was definitely a 2 man draft for most of the time...

 

[sergmatt]

(I know the rest were dribbling around chairs @Joshoua ).

LOL. Yeah too bad the chair in Sacramento defends about as well as Buddy does.

If only the damn chair would have forced Bagley to use his right hand........draft outcome might have been different.

 

[whozit]

Vivek = Jerry Jones? Vivek is a meddling know it all who seems to actually know nothing.

Does anyone here actually trust vivek to hire a competent GM?

No.

 

[Showtime]

Its absolutely not 20/20 hindsighting. I can promise you I hated every one of those things that I'm "whining" about right when they happened. Hated the Bagley pick, I constantly brought up that we should gather additional assets, I hated the offseason when we signed non contributing "mentors" for 40million/year, I absolutely hated the philly trade. Those were all horrible moves right when they happened and they still are.

So much this. This isn't "hindsight".
I hated the trade for Barnes and his subsequent re-signing. I think he was overrated and his game doesn't fit what the team was doing at the time. I understand they had a hole at SF, but that deal killed the momentum heading into the playoffs and ended the team's chance at the playoffs, which I think also ended Dave's tenure. Had they made the playoffs, I don't think he would have been let go for Walton.

I really didn't get this offseason. Vlade overpaid Dedmond for what? Ariza is another head-scratcher. The only thing I could think of is Vlade honestly thought this team was making the playoffs and the ability to put CoJo and Ariza on the floor for slower, defensive play would help. Well guess what: you switching coaches and slowing the pace down is absolutely killing this team's playoff momentum.

Really, not much of what Vlade does makes much sense other than the rare good decisions. Signing Beli was a great call. Getting Holmes was another. Other than that, I think he's made mistake after mistake especially in the draft. But this isn't hindsight, these were decisions that were confusing at the time.

 

[whozit]

Yes, Vlade has been bad so we shouldnt settle for bad just because someone else might be bad too.



If the right thing for the team is to fire Vlade (as it looks to be), his 5m/year salary shouldnt affect that decision. If that 5million/year is a reason not to fire him (as I believe you suggested earlier that its a possibility), then there should be a huge pressure from fans and local media to the owners to sell the team to someone who can pay that extra 5m/year if it benefits the team

If life was that simple. It is quite possible that the Kings will have to go through the same type of ownership turmoil that the Atlanta fans had to suffer until ownership was consolidated by a hostile takeover. It wasn't pretty. Is that what you want? The Kings ownership isn't pretty and there is probably some ugliness in the fine details.

 

[steelevt]

That comes across as just wrong.

Patience is all this fanbase has ever had.

You must not have been on this site recently or have a different understanding of patience.

pa·tience
/ˈpāSHəns/
noun
1.
the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset

Maybe I should have said not “all” kings fans have the patience as to not insult those that have been, but recently many kings fans have shown anything but patience. Maybe it’s the father in me that’s annoyed when people are saying they’ve been patient when they haven’t but there’s a big difference between waiting patiently and just waiting cuz you have to and ***** and moan the whole time (or most of the time)

 

[Artur91]

yeah it was definitely Luka early on but I think he did lose some standing after the Euroleague F4. maybe that was all smokescreens, adjustements to info leaking out of King's org, but some of it was the result of all eyes on him during the F4 and ACB playoffs where he was not having his best performances (I know the rest were dribbling around chairs @Joshoua ).

I think you are wrong, he dropped in the draft because the mocks just wanted to get it right and many media had infos that kings wanted to draft Bagley and that’s why he started to move up in the mock draft after April
Because Doncic performance didn’t drop, in fact prior the draft luka played his best basketball. Real Madrid won Spanish league championship luka was the MVP and they also won the euroleague a week after and luka was once again the MVP... double MVP trophies and 2 championships 1 a couple month prior draft...

Bagley was 2nd because mock just wanted to get it right and many sources was saying that Kings wanted Bagley.


Vlade was the only GM that made a press conference to explain his picks.

When asked why Bagley and not luka He simply said that “we think he(Bagley) is a better player”. You can look at it in YouTube

 

[burekijogurt]

I think you are wrong, he dropped in the draft because the mocks just wanted to get it right and many media had infos that kings wanted to draft Bagley and that’s why he started to move up in the mock draft after April
Because Doncic performance didn’t drop, in fact prior the draft luka played his best basketball. Real Madrid won Spanish league championship luka was the MVP and they also won the euroleague a week after and luka was once again the MVP... double MVP trophies and 2 championships 1 a couple month prior draft...

Bagley was 2nd because mock just wanted to get it right and many sources was saying that Kings wanted Bagley.


Vlade was the only GM that made a press conference to explain his picks.

When asked why Bagley and not luka He simply said that “we think he(Bagley) is a better player”. You can look at it in YouTube

I remember that news conference well, the exact quote is 'Better fit, better player' when asked about the choice between Luka and Bagley.
I know he won the MVP but those teams played him physically and he did now wow in them. Obviously those are high level games and he he performed well in them but I remember a lot of meh commentary and concerns after those games.. But again, I do not want to overstate this position that I'm arguing, there were plenty of those who considered him the best player in the draft despite all these things that I'm saying were happening at the time...

 

[rainmaker]

You must not have been on this site recently or have a different understanding of patience.

pa·tience
/ˈpāSHəns/
noun
1.
the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset

Maybe I should have said not “all” kings fans have the patience as to not insult those that have been, but recently many kings fans have shown anything but patience. Maybe it’s the father in me that’s annoyed when people are saying they’ve been patient when they haven’t but there’s a big difference between waiting patiently and just waiting cuz you have to and ***** and moan the whole time (or most of the time)

Suggesting fans of the team with by far the longest current playoff drought which more than doubles up the 3rd longest playoff drought, lack patience, is an amusing argument.

Lakers and Mavs will end their playoff droughts this season. That leaves Pho(9) and NYK(6) as the only other teams with longer than 3 seasons not in the playoffs.

Kings are at 13 and counting.

That more than quadruples the playoff droughts of almost the entire league.

 

[The_Jamal]

Who are the guys that were picked around Bagley, other than Doncic and Young, that have outperformed him? Keep in mind, Bagley also played last year.

Jaren Jackson, Wendell Carter Jr, Ayton and Shai along with Trae and Luka have outplayed him. Would put Bagley firmly 7th though in the class.

 

[The_Jamal]

I disagree with your approach. Besides can't miss, generational players like Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Luka, for most players it is hard to predict how good or bad they will be. E.g. Jokic was the late second-round pick. So, even when you draft the 60th player on the draft, Ben Wallace can happen and you can't blame GM for not recognizing he will be DPOY a few seasons later.

However, I still think Vlade is bad at drafting, but the reasons are not players he did not draft. The reason is that from the least above (8 players), aside from Fox (pretty obvious pick), we don't have a single keeper. Hopefully, Bagley will be another one, but Vlade missed obvious choice, no need to elaborate that. This year, he might hit a jackpot with JJ, I like the kid a lot, but it is way too early to tell.

IMO, he was better with FAs. Holmes, Bjelica, and CoJo are clear hits with very reasonable contracts. The signings that did not pan out were the short term and Vlade was able to trade them out. Hopefully, he will do the same with Dedmon.

Recently he has shown improvements with trades, I think that he won Bogdan and Barns trades.

So, it's interesting that teams with really quality Front office personal (Miami, Raptors, Denver, Spurs) seem to get really "lucky" all the time late in drafts and find quality talent late in the 1st and the 2nd while really bad front office teams (Kings, Knicks,PHX) never to seem to have that same luck. Just a weird coincidence I suppose

 

[Gguod]

If life was that simple. It is quite possible that the Kings will have to go through the same type of ownership turmoil that the Atlanta fans had to suffer until ownership was consolidated by a hostile takeover. It wasn't pretty. Is that what you want? The Kings ownership isn't pretty and there is probably some ugliness in the fine details.

To me its simple. If the ownership cheaps out and wont do whats best for the team, then fans should raise hell, media should/would report the situation and its one way to create pressure. If ownership rather saves money than makes the best decision for the team, then fans should be furious.

 

[Artur91]

I remember that news conference well, the exact quote is 'Better fit, better player' when asked about the choice between Luka and Bagley.
I know he won the MVP but those teams played him physically and he did now wow in them. Obviously those are high level games and he he performed well in them but I remember a lot of meh commentary and concerns after those games.. But again, I do not want to overstate this position that I'm arguing, there were plenty of those who considered him the best player in the draft despite all these things that I'm saying were happening at the time...

Alright since this is a threat for Vlade let’s no make Lukas name appear too much.
So let’s say u r the Kings GM

Will you draft a KID that at his 18 years old (the youngest player in that F4 edition) leads a team to a euroleague championship in the 2nd best league vs other professional teams full of experienced MEN and despite when they play physically on him he still managed to perform under pressure and deliver and ended winning the best player award( which means that even that he struggle he was still the best player on court) at age of 18 my god!

Or will you rather take a KID that was unable to carry his team vs other teams composed with KIDS to the F4 of a competition where only KIDS participate?

Vlade have made mistakes but some r just plain and silly mistake that someone that earns 5 millions per year shouldn’t do.

 

[sergmatt]

So, it's interesting that teams with really quality Front office personal (Miami, Raptors, Denver, Spurs) seem to get really "lucky" all the time late in drafts and find quality talent late in the 1st and the 2nd while really bad front office teams (Kings, Knicks,PHX) never to seem to have that same luck. Just a weird coincidence I suppose

Exactly. There have been several late first round and second round picks over the last 3-5 years that have turned out to be super players. Somehow Vlade hasn't managed to find a single one of them (while also screwing up most of his first rounders). Other teams are finding guys like Brogdon in the second round. Vlade can't even find them in the first.

 

[steelevt]

Suggesting fans of the team with by far the longest current playoff drought which more than doubles up the 3rd longest playoff drought, lack patience, is an amusing argument.

Lakers and Mavs will end their playoff droughts this season. That leaves Pho(9) and NYK(6) as the only other teams with longer than 3 seasons not in the playoffs.

Kings are at 13 and counting.

That more than quadruples the playoff droughts of almost the entire league.

Did you even read the post you quoted? Would you seriously say all kings fans have patience after reading the definition of the word.

 

[The_Jamal]

Exactly. There have been several late first round and second round picks over the last 3-5 years that have turned out to be super players. Somehow Vlade hasn't managed to find a single one of them (while also screwing up most of his first rounders). Other teams are finding guys like Brogdon in the second round. Vlade can't even find them in the first.

Raptors developmental prospects the last 5 years with basically 0 good draft capital contributing to their 21-10 start:

Norman Powell- 46th overall
Fred Van Vleet- Undrafted
Pascal Siakam- 27th overall
Chris Boucher- Undrafted
OG Anunoby- 23rd overall
Terrence Davis- Undrafted

Pascal is already a top 15 player (somebhere claiming wasn't as good as Bagley last year), while FVV is well on his way to getting a max offer or close to it. With the leap OG made on offense this year, wouldn't surprise me to see him continue to develop and be one of the more valuable 2-way players in the league.

Point is, they're a shining example of how beneficial it is to heavily invest in the 2nd round/undrafted and set up your franchise for real long-term success.

 

[Artur91]

Raptors developmental prospects the last 5 years with basically 0 good draft capital contributing to their 21-10 start:

Norman Powell- 46th overall
Fred Van Vleet- Undrafted
Pascal Siakam- 27th overall
Chris Boucher- Undrafted
OG Anunoby- 23rd overall
Terrence Davis- Undrafted

Pascal is already a top 15 player (somebhere claiming wasn't as good as Bagley last year), while FVV is well on his way to getting a max offer or close to it.

They have Masai Ujiri, the best GM in NBA. I don’t expect to get someone as good as him, but I just want someone better than Vlade, shouldn’t be too hard...

 

[The_Jamal]

They have Masai Ujiri, the best GM in NBA. I don’t expect to get someone as good as him, but I just want someone better than Vlade, shouldn’t be too hard...

It's more to highlight how important and impactful Vlade missing on all these first round picks has been as a strain on the organization the last few years. Imagine the position we'd be in now if 1 or 2 of the picks from Papagiannis, Malachi, Skal, WCS, Giles, Justin Jackson, Frank Mason panned out and were quality NBA contributors for us. Or just drafting Luka, but that's been talked about to death already about how massive a mistake it was.

Nobody expects you to hit on every draft pick, or for your draft picks to start contributing at a high level from day 1. But there's a serious issue when we look back at your drafting resume and its bust after bust after bust.

 

[Artur91]

It's more to highlight how important and impactful Vlade missing on all these first round picks has been as a strain on the organization the last few years. Imagine the position we'd be in now if 1 or 2 of the picks from Papagiannis, Malachi, Skal, WCS, Giles, Justin Jackson, Frank Mason panned out and were quality NBA contributors for us. Or just drafting Luka, but that's been talked about to death already about how massive a mistake it was.

Nobody expects you to hit on every draft pick, or for your draft picks to start contributing at a high level from day 1. But there's a serious issue when we look back at your drafting resume and its bust after bust after bust.

Well you killing Vlade(worst GM in NBA) when u compare him to Masai.
Like seriously Vlade will be out of any front office after he gets fired by Vivek. His career as GM is already over.

 

[sergmatt]

Nobody expects you to hit on every draft pick, or for your draft picks to start contributing at a high level from day 1. But there's a serious issue when we look back at your drafting resume and its bust after bust after bust.

Exactly nobody hits on all of them. Even 50% is probably pretty good but not counting Bagley, Vlade is 1 of 8 now.

12.5% isn't going to get it done. If Bagley doesn't turn into something really good then that number goes down to 10%.

 

[burekijogurt]

Alright since this is a threat for Vlade let’s no make Lukas name appear too much.
So let’s say u r the Kings GM

Will you draft a KID that at his 18 years old (the youngest player in that F4 edition) leads a team to a euroleague championship in the 2nd best league vs other professional teams full of experienced MEN and despite when they play physically on him he still managed to perform under pressure and deliver and ended winning the best player award( which means that even that he struggle he was still the best player on court) at age of 18 my god!

Or will you rather take a KID that was unable to carry his team vs other teams composed with KIDS to the F4 of a competition where only KIDS participate?

Vlade have made mistakes but some r just plain and silly mistake that someone that earns 5 millions per year shouldn’t do.

I agree that Vlade made the wrong decision. I was speaking specifically and narrowly about the notion that he went against an overwhelming consensus at the time of the draft. If that was what actually happened the reaction from peers and pundits would have been much different than it was. Again, I agree that we should have picked Luka for all the reasons you outline.

 

[sactowndog]

Again, I can give you examples of many GMs misses. The problem with Vlade is that he never hits outside of obvious choices, and in the case of Bagley, he even missed the obvious one. Let's just hope that JJ pans out, and that is the start of a new trend. And yes, Popovic and SA have a stellar record but even they missed Jokic in 2014. They drefted Glan Robinson instead. Also, another Nikola, Milutinov is a very good player it would be nice to have him to backup Holmes next year. Maybe we could sell them Dedmon for something and Milutinov's rights.

of course GM’s miss. Even the good ones miss 30% of so. The problem is Vlade misses far too often. The only player not clearly a miss is Fox out of 8 first rounders. That is a horrible percentage. I think we are saying the same thing. I just put names to the misses.

 

[sactowndog]

on all the draft boards pre draft ive seen bagley was either 2 or 3, doubt he would have been available 2-3 spots later. also i recently posted a summary of draft boards couple of weeks beford the draft and Luka was anywhere from 2-5. that cannot all be contributed to the board publishers trying to be correct given some rumblings Kings were gonna pick Bagley. and also there was no complete outrage and bad grades by the talking heads post draft that would suggest Vlade went against some clear consensus. I was as dissapointed as anyone when it happened, but what I remember pre draft does not match the descriptions of a clear no brainer everyone agrees scenario where Vlade does the opposite..

I think he would be for sure. The Hawks wanted young. That means at 5 we would have gotten JJ (actually a better fit) or Bagley.

 

[jcwkings]

When the Kings can't even get the most simplest of things right(a generational talent is gifted to you and it's clear as day he was special) is when I realized once and for all being a fan of this team will always be hell with an occasional sprinkle of hope. Bottom of the barrel franchise from top to bottom.

 

[burekijogurt]

I think he would be for sure. The Hawks wanted young. That means at 5 we would have gotten JJ (actually a better fit) or Bagley.

right, with this set of teams as they were and their needs/likes. I guess what I was going for (and missed) is that he was considered a top 3 talent.

 

[krylia sovetov]

Also, another Nikola, Milutinov is a very good player it would be nice to have him to backup Holmes next year. Maybe we could sell them Dedmon for something and Milutinov's rights.

yes, i thought about him and his rim protection, couple of times last season when we had WCS, but...

frankly, at the time when i was signing for olympiakos, i was only thinking about spurs. today i'm not so crazy about idea departing to NBA. if i get a chance, i'm off. but i'm not going to go there and sit on the bench. i want to play and bench is not an option.

so this maybe means ˝i don't want to be a rookie again˝, but it can also mean i'll come but with guarantied 20-25-30 minutes per game.