Does Bagley remind you of Siakam?

KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#61
#61
Chupacabra said:
In my opinion the comparison to Siakam is strange; they are not similar players. They are similar in size, that's about it. Just because I think Bagley is a better player doesn't mean that I don't believe in Siakam.
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Exactly. These people just aren’t understanding that nobody is down on Siakam. But rather scoffing at this ridiculous notion that he was somehow a ‘much better’ player. The entirety of statistics demonstrate that the difference was marginal. Instead, they post advanced stats that indicate Siakam was better defensively, which I think most agree he surely was. But ignore things like PER that indicate they are fairly even overall. They also ignore that one played with Kawhi and one didn’t. So whatever.

As nice a surprise as Siakam was this season, he surely didn’t want the ball in Q4 yesterday. None of the Raptors did besides #2, which is why Kawhi had to shoot it so much. That was a fearful group of players that got carried by their superstar player.
 
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jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#63
#63
I find that Kingsfans take both roads in rating Kings players. Many of them are overrated and overvalued. Many others are underrated and undervalued. But it's not just variance. I think it reflects a combination of homerism and loyalty on one hand, and the proverbial Sacramento/Kings inferiority complex on the other hand.
By the way, while I really like Siakam and believe he will be an All-Star, I wouldn't trade Bagley for Siakam. At least not until we can see how high Bags' ceiling is.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#64
#64
KingsFanSince85 said:
They also ignore that one played with Kawhi and one didn’t. So whatever.

As nice a surprise as Siakam was this season, he surely didn’t want the ball in Q4 yesterday. None of the Raptors did besides #2, which is why Kawhi had to shoot it so much. That was a fearful group of players that got carried by their superstar player.
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Agreed. The fact that Kawhi is on the team, takes all the pressure and makes players around him better is an inconvenient truth.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#65
#65
jcassio said:
I find that Kingsfans take both roads in rating Kings players. Many of them are overrated and overvalued. Many others are underrated and undervalued. But it's not just variance. I think it reflects a combination of homerism and loyalty on one hand, and the proverbial Sacramento/Kings inferiority complex on the other hand.
By the way, while I really like Siakam and believe he will be an All-Star, I wouldn't trade Bagley for Siakam. At least not until we can see how high Bags' ceiling is.
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That was never the point of this discussion. If I wanted to go win a championship now or next season only without worrying about the future, I'd do the trade in a heartbeat. Siakam contributes significantly more to winning than Bagley does and it is isn't close. Just because a few people enjoy sticking their guns and denying the easy truth right in front of them, doesn't change the facts of this comparison.

Their isn't even really advanced stats posted in this thread. All of it is super basic and easy to comprehend. And it all shows how much better Siakam is at the game right now. Flabbergasted that some can process that data and still be like "Nah, the 3 games I saw Pascal played, I'm confident Bagley still better."
 
jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#66
#66
The_Jamal said:
That was never the point of this discussion. If I wanted to go win a championship now or next season only without worrying about the future, I'd do the trade in a heartbeat. Siakam contributes significantly more to winning than Bagley does and it is isn't close. Just because a few people enjoy sticking their guns and denying the easy truth right in front of them, doesn't change the facts of this comparison.

Their isn't even really advanced stats posted in this thread. All of it is super basic and easy to comprehend. And it all shows how much better Siakam is at the game right now. Flabbergasted that some can process that data and still be like "Nah, the 3 games I saw Pascal played, I'm confident Bagley still better."
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What was "the point of this discussion," Obi-Wan, if not to discuss, compare and speculate on Siakam and Bagley?
 
K

Kangztillidie

Bench
#67
#67
The_Jamal said:
That was never the point of this discussion. If I wanted to go win a championship now or next season only without worrying about the future, I'd do the trade in a heartbeat. Siakam contributes significantly more to winning than Bagley does and it is isn't close. Just because a few people enjoy sticking their guns and denying the easy truth right in front of them, doesn't change the facts of this comparison.

Their isn't even really advanced stats posted in this thread. All of it is super basic and easy to comprehend. And it all shows how much better Siakam is at the game right now. Flabbergasted that some can process that data and still be like "Nah, the 3 games I saw Pascal played, I'm confident Bagley still better."
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Yeah I no doubt think Bagley playing with Kawhi vs Siakam on the Kings last year in Bagleys spot would have you singing a different tune. But carry on Jam-on
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#70
#70
206Fan said:
This thread shows how bias Kings fans are... the consensus was that rookie Bagley is already better than Pascal Siakam who's averaged 18.7pts 7rebs 2.4asts in the playoffs leading up to the finals. I agree that Bagley has a better ceiling, but Siakam is head and shoulders the better player right now.
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No. Youre comparing a player's accomplishment during the playoffs to another player who is on a team that isn't in the playoffs. It's like comparing the results of a study to nothing. You can say stuff like "wow, Siakam is playing great in the playoffs". What you can't do is compare that playoff performance to another player who isn't in the playoffs; you don't have the data to compare.

I maintain that any person who knows what they're looking at can see that Bagley is the superior player right now, and very likely will be for the foreseeable future.
 
Shaqfuey

Shaqfuey

Bench
#72
#72
It’s fun to read the experts on either guy after watching that performance tonight. I’m not in one camp or the other, having only seen Siakam play a few times. His court vision and ability to finish is impressive. I’d be happy with any player matching his play.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#73
#73
Chupacabra said:
No. Youre comparing a player's accomplishment during the playoffs to another player who is on a team that isn't in the playoffs. It's like comparing the results of a study to nothing. You can say stuff like "wow, Siakam is playing great in the playoffs". What you can't do is compare that playoff performance to another player who isn't in the playoffs; you don't have the data to compare.

I maintain that any person who knows what they're looking at can see that Bagley is the superior player right now, and very likely will be for the foreseeable future.
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"This man has a B+ in calculus while the other guy is still taking algebra!"
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#74
#74
Chupacabra said:
No. Youre comparing a player's accomplishment during the playoffs to another player who is on a team that isn't in the playoffs. It's like comparing the results of a study to nothing. You can say stuff like "wow, Siakam is playing great in the playoffs". What you can't do is compare that playoff performance to another player who isn't in the playoffs; you don't have the data to compare.

I maintain that any person who knows what they're looking at can see that Bagley is the superior player right now, and very likely will be for the foreseeable future.
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Lmfao. We already beyond the shadow of a doubt proved how superior Pascal was in the regular season. Now, he just dropped 32-8-5-2-1 on 14-17 FGA with only 2 turnovers in the biggest game of the year (thus far) against one of the greatest dynasty teams the NBA has ever seen. That doesn't pass the "eye test" for you??

But sure, lets just believe your basketball talent evaluation abilities are better than every stat/metric known to man. Just take the L, mate.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#75
#75
Still quite the age difference there. Honestly, he had a great game but what you saw out there wasn't superstar dominance. It really wasn't. He has basically one elite move where he can get to that right shoulder and bank it in on the drive. Better than a 19-20 year old Bagley maybe, long term I'll stick with Bagleys upside myself. Both are finesse offensive bigs so again, they are similar.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#76
#76
SacTownKid said:
Still quite the age difference there. Honestly, he had a great game but what you saw out there wasn't superstar dominance. It really wasn't. He has basically one elite move where he can get to that right shoulder and bank it in on the drive. Better than a 19-20 year old Bagley maybe, long term I'll stick with Bagleys upside myself. Both are finesse offensive bigs so again, they are similar.
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Had a huge game no doubt but the Warriors helped him along by (a) stubbornly doubling Kawhi every time he touched the ball, (b) being slow on rotations, (c) Dray pretty much sleeping walking though the second half of the game.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#78
#78
The_Jamal said:
Lmfao. We already beyond the shadow of a doubt proved how superior Pascal was in the regular season. Now, he just dropped 32-8-5-2-1 on 14-17 FGA with only 2 turnovers in the biggest game of the year (thus far) against one of the greatest dynasty teams the NBA has ever seen. That doesn't pass the "eye test" for you??

But sure, lets just believe your basketball talent evaluation abilities are better than every stat/metric known to man. Just take the L, mate.
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Who is "we"? I recognize that you made an argument that is very convincing to you. And, once again, we're pretty limited in the degree to which we can use Siakam's playoff performance against Bagley. For me it's no different than when you go play in a game and try to figure out who the other team's best player is. Alot of the time its not hard to figure out. I watch the two play, I come away thinking Bagley is better.

Most will probably not remember this thread, but you're digging a hole for yourself. Which is fine, being wrong about a player comparison is no high crime.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#79
#79
Chupacabra said:
Who is "we"? I recognize that you made an argument that is very convincing to you. And, once again, we're pretty limited in the degree to which we can use Siakam's playoff performance against Bagley. For me it's no different than when you go play in a game and try to figure out who the other team's best player is. Alot of the time its not hard to figure out. I watch the two play, I come away thinking Bagley is better.

Most will probably not remember this thread, but you're digging a hole for yourself. Which is fine, being wrong about a player comparison is no high crime.
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It's the royal 'we'
 
G

Gguod

Bench
#80
#80
Chupacabra said:
No. Youre comparing a player's accomplishment during the playoffs to another player who is on a team that isn't in the playoffs. It's like comparing the results of a study to nothing. You can say stuff like "wow, Siakam is playing great in the playoffs". What you can't do is compare that playoff performance to another player who isn't in the playoffs; you don't have the data to compare.

I maintain that any person who knows what they're looking at can see that Bagley is the superior player right now, and very likely will be for the foreseeable future.
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Seems like you are confusing potential and current level. Rookies often show that raw talent but due to inexperience, they really dont contribute to winning.

Siakam was 4th in RPM amongst PF's with 3,54, while Bagley was 95th with -3,67. Of PF's Siakam was 2nd in RPM WINS with 11,16 while Bagley was 98th with -0,56.
Win shares:
Siakam 9,3 (16th in the league)
Bagley 3,6 (122nd in the league)
BPM:
Siakam 3,4 (29th)
Bagley -1,8 (151st)
VORP
Siakam 3,5 (22nd)
Bagley 0,1 (237th)

Thats pretty much what raw talent not contributing to winning looks like in advances metrics compared to established very valuable player. Again, its not about who has better potential. Its about who is better now and since we have all this advanced data measuring players impact, eye test and the knowledge of rookies often not contributing to winning, there really is no argument who is the better player at this moment.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#82
#82
... this thread LOL... I guess I'm just gonna post "I rest my case"


IDK why ppl feel the need to kinda put their guy on a pedastal while trying to knock someone else, whos clearly earned it, off theirs.. Thats not the way things work... Things are MERIT based. If you were in here knocking the Merits of Pascal Siakam you probably didnt have much of a knowledge base to cast those aspersions from.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#83
#83
SacTownKid said:
Still quite the age difference there. Honestly, he had a great game but what you saw out there wasn't superstar dominance. It really wasn't. He has basically one elite move where he can get to that right shoulder and bank it in on the drive. Better than a 19-20 year old Bagley maybe, long term I'll stick with Bagleys upside myself. Both are finesse offensive bigs so again, they are similar.
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you need to get your eyes checked LMAO... Pascal Siakam was DOMINATING THE DPOY DRAYMOND... He couldnt miss, he even was scoring thru double-teams..


Did it not occur to you that Pascal Siakam has Draymond right where he wants him in iso? he's used to scoring thru double-teams, Draymond got cooked last night by Pascal defensively, he had him biting at fakes then was getting easy layups.


Pascal aslo threw like 7-8 really well timed and placed passes last night, he's truly a triple-threat out of that spin-move, he was creating WIDE OPEN 3's for Gasol and Danny Green..



there is nothing more to say, ppl here still holding their ground are this topic are beyond asinine... and is their position really basketball-based? ABSOLUTELY NOT... It is the position of some stubborn dude who' rather 'go down with the ship' than admit they were wrong, which is pretty standard IMO, falls in line with George Carlin's old routine about how guys are dumb and women are crazy. did these people even watch the Raptors-Kings game this season?? I guess not.
 
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King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#84
#84
Gguod said:
Seems like you are confusing potential and current level. Rookies often show that raw talent but due to inexperience, they really dont contribute to winning.

Siakam was 4th in RPM amongst PF's with 3,54, while Bagley was 95th with -3,67. Of PF's Siakam was 2nd in RPM WINS with 11,16 while Bagley was 98th with -0,56.
Win shares:
Siakam 9,3 (16th in the league)
Bagley 3,6 (122nd in the league)
BPM:
Siakam 3,4 (29th)
Bagley -1,8 (151st)
VORP
Siakam 3,5 (22nd)
Bagley 0,1 (237th)

Thats pretty much what raw talent not contributing to winning looks like in advances metrics compared to established very valuable player. Again, its not about who has better potential. Its about who is better now and since we have all this advanced data measuring players impact, eye test and the knowledge of rookies often not contributing to winning, there really is no argument who is the better player at this moment.
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My question is still this. Does the rest of the team affect all those stats? Since The Claw is having one of his best seasons in a HOF type carreer will that also affect Pascal's stats? The Raptors have been good for a few years. Gasol is still a very good player and was once DPOY. Lowry is a very good All Star level PG. Ibaka while getting long in the tooth still brings it in the paint every night. How many times has Danny Green been there and done that? The Raptors have a very good and very experienced ball club. Comparing them to the Kings is just not fair.

So no doubt Pascal is playing great but in my view he is the 4th best player on the current Raptor's roster. Comparing him to a Rookie phenom on a rebuilding team and saying it is this way/that way because of the stats just does not add up to me.

But yes at this point in time Pascal has better stats. How many GM's out there would pick Pascal over Bagley? It may depend on what team you are putting them on.
 
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Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#86
#86
ESP47 said:
Difficult to have this discussion because people keep flip flopping it from "who is better right now?" to "who will be better in the future?". It's obvious who is better right now. It's not even a discussion. You're just being stubborn if you think Bagley is a better player today. Talking about who is better in the future is a whole different story.
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In my own defense, I also think that both Luka Doncic and Trae Young are better than Siakam right now. Not kings players, both rookies, both better than Siakam right now. This dispels any accusation of bias. Good day!
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#89
#89
Can I just say, that was spectacular last night... Siakam totally stole the show...


Didnt Jalen Rose say at halftime "The 3rd quarter Warriors are the 31st team in the NBA" then the 3rd starts and Siakam drops like 12 points in the first few minutes....


Did y'all hear his post-game interview???? Do you really know the story of Pascal Siakam??? I do, and I'd never, ever bet against someone like that, EVER..... EVER.... That kid might be a juggernaut, the cameroonian blake griffin, I just can't see how you'd pick on THAT GUY, to make your point.... Have you ever heard of Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers? Is Pascal not an Outlier? That guy is making $1.5MM this season...

Classic case of barking up the wrong tree...........

He is special... He was so in the zone... That wasnt just a display of skill and athletecism, it was a grand display of will and focus and just simply basketball.
 
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