Carmichael Dave and "the sky is falling" crowd about the TWolves game

C

carmichaeldave

Bench
#121
#121
JCTNKINGFAN said:
CarMichaelDave, just doesn’t get it does he? He doesn’t understand that some of these King’s fans are entitled to be entertained. They have been Kings fans for like a hundred years and have suffered extreme deprivation during most of that time, so they are entitled to be entertained each and every night. It’s not about the big picture, winning as many games as possible out of 82 games. It’s about seeing every single game as a must win, so that those fans can be entertained even if going all out and pushing the limits to win each individual game will lower the total win count.

This team is so far ahead of what anybody expected or projected, I just don’t get the emotional almost hysterical response to this one game. Why do they feel entitled to the instant gratification of winning every game? I’m not sure why the armchair warriors want to pick this hill to die on. The NBA schedule is punishing and physically draining. Good teams have been resting stars on back to backs for over a decade. Over-playing guys leads to more injuries. When you play so much and rest so little, your body doesn’t get enough time to rest and heal. This has been proven to make a player more likely to suffer an injury. The NBA rand the Player’s Association recognizes this and has taken some steps to rectify it and are still working on it.

The team left in a plane Saturday after a tough, exhausting loss to the Warriors, flew 3.5 hours, played Sunday, flew 2.5 hours played Monday, flying 4+ hours home, before finally a day off. They are already down Bagley and possibly Shumpert and now possibly Bogdanovic with a foot injury. In hindsight, maybe Bogdanovic should have played less if at all against the Wolves.

Joerger is looking at the big picture and maximizing this season. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You take a split on the back-to-backs. You take 2 out of 3 when possible. Rather than shooting your wad on a game you have little chance of winning on a tough 3 of 4 nights and 2nd of a back to back road game, and coming up short, and then come out flat the next winnable game, or worse get a key player injured, you play the odds and play to take the wins that you have a high probability to win and if you win against the improbable, then that’s just house money at that point. You don’t sacrifice the chance to win the more probable games by throwing everything you have at a game to try and get an improbable win.
Click to expand...
Lol I think I get it as well as anyone, being a fan my entire life.

Entitled? That’s funny, I’ve been using that term a lot lately.

As a Kings fan, I’m entitled to a championship, especially because we had one stolen.

If it’s a good decision long term, I couldn’t care less about a road game in Minnesota in December. That’s my frustration with some fans. Macro vs Micro outlook.

People can hem and haw about white flags and effort and blah blah, i trust that Joerger and his staff know the team better than any of us, plus they have the results to back it up.

To think otherwise is not only pompous, it’s misguided and sad.
 
C

carmichaeldave

Bench
#122
#122
carmichaeldave said:
Lol I think I get it as well as anyone, being a fan my entire life.

Entitled? That’s funny, I’ve been using that term a lot lately.

As a Kings fan, I’m entitled to a championship, especially because we had one stolen.

If it’s a good decision long term, I couldn’t care less about a road game in Minnesota in December. That’s my frustration with some fans. Macro vs Micro outlook.

People can hem and haw about white flags and effort and blah blah, i trust that Joerger and his staff know the team better than any of us, plus they have the results to back it up.

To think otherwise is not only pompous, it’s misguided and sad.
Click to expand...
Annnnnd I just realized the nature of your post. This is why I shouldn’t post and do a radio show at the same time.

Rather than delete, I’m leaving it up for the egg on my face

In fact, if I was smart enough to read past the first tongue in cheek paragraph, I would’ve seen that it was the absolute perfect post to describe Joerger’s logic.
 
Last edited:
J

JCTNKINGFAN

Bench
#124
#124
carmichaeldave said:
Annnnnd I just realized the nature of your post. This is why I shouldn’t post and do a radio show at the same time.

Rather than delete, I’m leaving it up for the egg on my face

In fact, if I was smart enough to read past the first tongue in cheek paragraph, I would’ve seen that it was the absolute perfect post to describe Joerger’s logic.
Click to expand...
Yeah, s'alright, we could use a sarcasm font. I have been under the weather with a really bad cold and didn't get in on any of the original "melt down". It kind of died down and I probably should have just let it die, but meh, like everybody else I had to put my 2 cents in.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#126
#126
kingdivac said:
No substituting? Come back when you've actually watched a pro soccer game. Substituting is a strategically huge part of soccer. And the fact that there's less substituting drives the point home. Conditioning should not be whined about. And Of course its relevant, you're bringing up "pace" and therefore endurance and conditioning.
Click to expand...
I said substituting in and out. I watch plenty of soccer games and once you are out you are out. The point, I was making, is coaches in basketball will try to steal extra rest for key players by looking for places they can successfully play their bench. That concept doesn’t exist in soccer. Once you are out you are out. Hockey and Water Polo substitution patterns would be more analogous.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#128
#128
kingdivac said:
I'm comparing conditioning....how tired an athlete gets. For warmups in soccer you might run a mile or 2; in basketball its liners.
Click to expand...
Different sports vary in how they condition depending on if you are targeting extreme quickness or the more endurance is required.

In Water Polo you have to trade of quickness for ability to get up and down the pool. Hockey does quickness for short bursts with many lines. Soccer forces a trade off of quickness for stamina due to its substitution rules. But all this is irrelevant to the point that Joeger is not using the substitution rules in basketball to the extent he needs to given the pace. Soccer has no such rule.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#130
#130
kingdivac said:
You're overthinking it. Sprinting is sprinting regardless of sport. Constant sprinting in basketball is just incorrect. Sprinting on fast breaks, yes, but usually only 2 or 3 players. On a made basket teams walk up the floor most of the time.
Click to expand...
Exactly which allows most teams to play longer minutes because players grab rest in the context of the game. Smart players will often not even change ends.

But that doesn’t happen on the Kings.

Joeger conditioned them more in camp but that’s not enough in a league playing 82 games. This style has a huge hole if you are playing an average or shorter bench length. That hole is evident in our back to back record and drop in shooting percentages.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#131
#131
JCTNKINGFAN said:
CarMichaelDave, just doesn’t get it does he? He doesn’t understand that some of these King’s fans are entitled to be entertained. They have been Kings fans for like a hundred years and have suffered extreme deprivation during most of that time, so they are entitled to be entertained each and every night. It’s not about the big picture, winning as many games as possible out of 82 games. It’s about seeing every single game as a must win, so that those fans can be entertained even if going all out and pushing the limits to win each individual game will lower the total win count.

This team is so far ahead of what anybody expected or projected, I just don’t get the emotional almost hysterical response to this one game. Why do they feel entitled to the instant gratification of winning every game? I’m not sure why the armchair warriors want to pick this hill to die on. The NBA schedule is punishing and physically draining. Good teams have been resting stars on back to backs for over a decade. Over-playing guys leads to more injuries. When you play so much and rest so little, your body doesn’t get enough time to rest and heal. This has been proven to make a player more likely to suffer an injury. The NBA rand the Player’s Association recognizes this and has taken some steps to rectify it and are still working on it.

The team left in a plane Saturday after a tough, exhausting loss to the Warriors, flew 3.5 hours, played Sunday, flew 2.5 hours played Monday, flying 4+ hours home, before finally a day off. They are already down Bagley and possibly Shumpert and now possibly Bogdanovic with a foot injury. In hindsight, maybe Bogdanovic should have played less if at all against the Wolves.

Joerger is looking at the big picture and maximizing this season. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You take a split on the back-to-backs. You take 2 out of 3 when possible. Rather than shooting your wad on a game you have little chance of winning on a tough 3 of 4 nights and 2nd of a back to back road game, and coming up short, and then come out flat the next winnable game, or worse get a key player injured, you play the odds and play to take the wins that you have a high probability to win and if you win against the improbable, then that’s just house money at that point. You don’t sacrifice the chance to win the more probable games by throwing everything you have at a game to try and get an improbable win.
Click to expand...
By the way, I applaud Dave for pulling his players because I agree on the injury point.

My point is more on the style of play and length of bench regardless of single game. And your injury point is one main reason why I’m concerned. Bogi got injured last year playing too many minutes while he was fatigued. I would rather not see a repeat:
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#132
#132
carmichaeldave said:
Interesting. As a fan of soccer, I see the point, but I do think it’s a different (not completely) type of conditioning.

Soccer players may run more, but I’m not entirely sure they SPRINT more. With the exception of midfielders, soccer athletes enjoy quite a bit of downtime at either end when extrapolated over 90’ plus stoppage time.

Whereas you don’t have the prevalence of commercial breaks and timeouts like the NBA, you DO have set pieces and physio breaks on the field to help keep the heart rate down.

An NBA player, in particular a player in a system like the Kings’, is in an almost constant state of sprinting while on the floor. You can point to 30 min instead of 90, but the increase in not only sprinting, but rapid jumping and also taking contact- its a different animal.

I think another way to explore the differences would be to look at Olympic athletes.

Look at the average body makeup of a marathoner (soccer), as opposed to a sprinter (NBA). The marathoner is generally thin, and sometimes almost sickly looking.

The sprinter is almost always Adonis-like, with cut muscles and that “soloflex” type build.

That’s one reason why many trainers these days advocate a HIIT method of cardio (High Intensity Interval Training) as opposed to distance running on a treadmill.

I would say soccer players = marathoners

NBA players = HIIT type sprinters

Two totally different beasts.
Click to expand...
Dave if you or others want to read a fascinating book on body types and sport I recommend the Sports Gene.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#135
#135
Listening to this discussion, makes it obvious that most people do not appreciate the pace in the NBA at all. The Kings play fast in the fastest bball league in the world. Basketball players are large humans. There are guys out there like Willie that are 7 feet tall that run like gazelles. Kosta weighs about 265 pounds and gets up and down.

Soccer players are little guys in comparison.
 
B

burekijogurt

Starter
#136
#136
ppine said:
Listening to this discussion, makes it obvious that most people do not appreciate the pace in the NBA at all. The Kings play fast in the fastest bball league in the world. Basketball players are large humans. There are guys out there like Willie that are 7 feet tall that run like gazelles. Kosta weighs about 265 pounds and gets up and down.

Soccer players are little guys in comparison.
Click to expand...
are we comparing soccer players and basketball players or soccer players and marathon runners? i guess we are doing both reading all the posts...
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#137
#137
ppine said:
Listening to this discussion, makes it obvious that most people do not appreciate the pace in the NBA at all. The Kings play fast in the fastest bball league in the world. Basketball players are large humans. There are guys out there like Willie that are 7 feet tall that run like gazelles. Kosta weighs about 265 pounds and gets up and down.

Soccer players are little guys in comparison.
Click to expand...
I do, even if it's just a few pickup games a week it can leave you absolutely gassed and sore all over.
 
K

kingdivac

All-Star
#139
#139
sactowndog said:
I said substituting in and out. I watch plenty of soccer games and once you are out you are out. The point, I was making, is coaches in basketball will try to steal extra rest for key players by looking for places they can successfully play their bench. That concept doesn’t exist in soccer. Once you are out you are out. Hockey and Water Polo substitution patterns would be more analogous.
Click to expand...
You meant multiple substitutions. "Substituting in and out" does not infer multiple substitutions. Stealing extra rest is a luxury in comparison. The simplest answer is improving conditioning, and then 2ndly, trusting the bench. Every player in the league should be conditioned to play 48 min - as a professional.
 
K

kingdivac

All-Star
#140
#140
sactowndog said:
Exactly which allows most teams to play longer minutes because players grab rest in the context of the game. Smart players will often not even change ends.

But that doesn’t happen on the Kings.

Joeger conditioned them more in camp but that’s not enough in a league playing 82 games. This style has a huge hole if you are playing an average or shorter bench length. That hole is evident in our back to back record and drop in shooting percentages.
Click to expand...
The problem is they need to play defense....style or not, and stop relying on FG% as a crutch . It's the half of the game that is neglected and spotty by the Kings, and why they won't be contending far into the playoffs (if at all). They can always stress to improve conditioning and maybe could use some right after FT practice.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#141
#141
burekijogurt said:
are we comparing soccer players and basketball players or soccer players and marathon runners? i guess we are doing both reading all the posts...
Click to expand...
This is Kingsfans.com We could do both - and apparently are. ;) Just another reason I love this board AND why I urge newcomers to read every thread, especially non-game threads that extend more than 3 or 4 pages. There could easily be some sub-topics in there to entertain and educate. :)
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#142
#142
VF21 said:
This is Kingsfans.com We could do both - and apparently are. ;) Just another reason I love this board AND why I urge newcomers to read every thread, especially non-game threads that extend more than 3 or 4 pages. There could easily be some sub-topics in there to entertain and educate. :)
Click to expand...
The real question we need to be asking is can Carmichael Dave defeat Joey Chestnut? If Dave has home court at G1C I dont think Joey has a chance.
 
C

carmichaeldave

Bench
#143
#143
Section 101 said:
The real question we need to be asking is can Carmichael Dave defeat Joey Chestnut? If Dave has home court at G1C I dont think Joey has a chance.
Click to expand...
Popular misconception

While I may enjoy a few pounds of popcorn at games, I’m a terribly slow eater.

In a sprint, Joey dusts me.

In a marathon, I get him.

Another example of sprint vs marathon bodies
 
P

ppine

Starter
#144
#144
kingdivac said:
The problem is they need to play defense....style or not, and stop relying on FG% as a crutch . It's the half of the game that is neglected and spotty by the Kings, and why they won't be contending far into the playoffs (if at all). They can always stress to improve conditioning and maybe could use some right after FT practice.
Click to expand...
More of this please. Thanks to kingdivac.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#145
#145
Next time you go to a live NBA game, spend some time near the floor. We used to hang out under the basket watching Sonics games. You can get a feel for how big guys are and how fast they move. The same with pro football. Down on the field everyone is fast.
 
B

burekijogurt

Starter
#147
#147
VF21 said:
This is Kingsfans.com We could do both - and apparently are. ;) Just another reason I love this board AND why I urge newcomers to read every thread, especially non-game threads that extend more than 3 or 4 pages. There could easily be some sub-topics in there to entertain and educate. :)
Click to expand...
We are definitely evolving this conversation into many interesting branches!
My positions on 3 topics discussed in this thread:

1) Kings did not have it physically and mentally in Minnesota. Joerger was right to rest them and avoid injury/overexertion.
2) Soccer players do NOT have bodies like marathon runners. Soccer player bodies = sprinter bodies.
3) @carmichaeldave body is not a marathon runner body nor a sprinter body. Its more of a hot dog eating contestant body :p. I keed, I keed, mine is that of a hot dog eating contest winner ;)
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#149
#149
The Hammer said:
Some Kings fans have a certain amount of kvetch hardwired into them, and this season had been going so good there was a kvetch backup among some. So, they got a chance to open the gates and some of them just went a bit overboard with the kvetching. The good ones have already apologized. Mark the others for deletion.
Click to expand...
I wish I could like this post more than once. :)
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#150
#150
sactowndog said:
I think you have to weight those minutes by pace.
Click to expand...
Ayyyy.... are you looking for a 12 man rotation without one player over 30 min per game? Because, pace or no pace I doubt that has happened much if ever (at least on a quality team) in the history of basketball. We have not one player in the top 50 of minutes per game. i have a feeling you will debate each point to death on this so I will just leave it there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.