Luka Doncic (pre and post-draft discussion thread)

[ockingsfan]

So, that’s kind of the thing that squares the disparate information we have been receiving. Why look at MPJ at 2? Why meet with Carter tomorrow? These are guys that should be had between 6-8. Bagley vs Doncic at 2? Sure, reasonable debate. But MPJ and Carter? Come on, man. And why not JJJ or Bamba? Neither of those guys last beyond 5.

Well, what if the FO agrees that Doncic should be running the show? What if they are debating trading Fox to Orlando, Chicago, or Cleveland? There have been some weird rumors about shopping Fox? What if they’re true?

I love Fox. Love the guy. He’s never going to run a team the way Doncic does. He’s going to be really good, but Doncic is a maestro...he pulls all the strings. You give me Porter with Doncic getting him open looks—now we’re in business. Porter trying to iso with the squad we have now...hard pass.

Fox is not going to be traded. The Kings are trying to build their talent base, not take away from it.

The notion that Doncic and Fox can't thrive together is not true.

When Fox was drafted, he was seen as a scoring point guard. He was never going to be a great court vision PG like Lonzo Ball, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd. He is more of a John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Isaiah Thomas type scoring point guard. He is never going to be a pass first point guard.

Doncic will actually help Fox's shooting by getting him open looks. He will be able to get Fox the ball in the passing lanes, so he can attack the rim more. There will be plenty of shots to go around, the ball doesn't stick to Doncic's hands,

If Houston, GSW, Cleveland (with Kyrie) can thrive with two of the most ball dominant players is in the NBA, then I think the Kings can make it work with Doncic and Fox. The key is to keep the ball moving, so everyone gets to touch the ball and I think Doncic is just the player to bring that pass first culture to the Kings.

Of course Coach Joeger is going to need to ramp up the pace of his offense, and as long as he does, the Kings offense should be humming.

 

[206Fan]

For anyone curious about Luka's stats today: 20mins 11pts 2asts 4rebs on 5-9 FG 0-2 3PT.

He's in the ACB finals(separate from Euroleague, has less importance, but this is the Spanish league he plays within. Euroleague is the collection of all the best teams in Europe from every league). This is a best of 5 series. The series is tied 1-1. Remainder of the schedule is:
-June 17
-June 19
-June 22 (if needed)

Draft is June 21st. Not sure if Luka will be in attendance if he's still in the playoffs. Selfish me hopes this series ends on June 19th.

 

[VF21]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1007762514300448768

 

[roasthawg]

Fox is not going to be traded. The Kings are trying to build their talent base, not take away from it.

The notion that Doncic and Fox can't thrive together is not true.

When Fox was drafted, he was seen as a scoring point guard. He was never going to be a great court vision PG like Lonzo Ball, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd. He is more of a John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Isaiah Thomas type scoring point guard. He is never going to be a pass first point guard. Doncic will actually help Fox's shooting by getting him open looks. He will be able to get Fox the ball in the passing lanes, so he can attack the rim more. There will be plenty of shots to go around, the ball doesn't stick to Doncic's hands,

If Houston, GSW, Cleveland (with Kyrie) can thrive with two of the most ball dominant players is in the NBA, then I think the Kings can make it work with Doncic and Fox. The key is to keep the ball moving, so everyone gets to touch the ball and I think Doncic is just the player to bring that pass first culture to the Kings.

Of course Coach Joeger is going to need to ramp up the pace of his offense, and as long as he does, the Kings offense should be humming.

There are legit concerns about playing fox with Doncic. Neither is an elite shooter like Paul/harden. Tougher to play off the ball. I don't like the fit, I'm hoping we pass on Doncic.

 

[mac]

Fox is not going to be traded. The Kings are trying to build their talent base, not take away from it.

The notion that Doncic and Fox can't thrive together is not true.

When Fox was drafted, he was seen as a scoring point guard. He was never going to be a great court vision PG like Lonzo Ball, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd. He is more of a John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Isaiah Thomas type scoring point guard. He is never going to be a pass first point guard.

Doncic will actually help Fox's shooting by getting him open looks. He will be able to get Fox the ball in the passing lanes, so he can attack the rim more. There will be plenty of shots to go around, the ball doesn't stick to Doncic's hands,

If Houston, GSW, Cleveland (with Kyrie) can thrive with two of the most ball dominant players is in the NBA, then I think the Kings can make it work with Doncic and Fox. The key is to keep the ball moving, so everyone gets to touch the ball and I think Doncic is just the player to bring that pass first culture to the Kings.

Of course Coach Joeger is going to need to ramp up the pace of his offense, and as long as he does, the Kings offense should be humming.

One main difference is Kyrie, CP3, IT are all good shooters. Fox isn't. For him to be a John Wall where he's mainly getting to the rim, he needs the ball in his hands.

I still think it can work, but it would mean moving Doncic off the ball quite a bit more.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Fox is not going to be traded. The Kings are trying to build their talent base, not take away from it.

The notion that Doncic and Fox can't thrive together is not true.

When Fox was drafted, he was seen as a scoring point guard. He was never going to be a great court vision PG like Lonzo Ball, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd. He is more of a John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Isaiah Thomas type scoring point guard. He is never going to be a pass first point guard.

Doncic will actually help Fox's shooting by getting him open looks. He will be able to get Fox the ball in the passing lanes, so he can attack the rim more. There will be plenty of shots to go around, the ball doesn't stick to Doncic's hands,

If Houston, GSW, Cleveland (with Kyrie) can thrive with two of the most ball dominant players is in the NBA, then I think the Kings can make it work with Doncic and Fox. The key is to keep the ball moving, so everyone gets to touch the ball and I think Doncic is just the player to bring that pass first culture to the Kings.

Of course Coach Joeger is going to need to ramp up the pace of his offense, and as long as he does, the Kings offense should be humming.

I agree that they should be able to thrive together, but something is afoot. The MPJ hype is disproportionate. The Carter meeting is weird. We have our eye on a second pick between 6-10, I’m sure of it. Whether that’s taking on salary by facilitating a Lebron trade for the #8, or flipping Fox to Orlando for #6, I don’t know. But, we have plans for a second pick. And we’re taking Luka. TTP.

I love Fox, but he’s NEVER going to run a P&R as well as Doncic can today. It’s just not going to happen. He doesn’t have the instincts for it. I think they can play together, but Fox wants that max deal and to be the man. He’s not going to defer this early in his career, and I’m not saying he should. But, Doncic is just a genius with the ball in his hands. We can’t pass on that, and we can’t let an inferior player dictate how we use Doncic.

Last edit: ask yourself, why did we set up this meeting with Carter after Memphis and Dallas expressed heavy interest in MPJ? I think we’re looking at #6 for Fox.

 

[KingsSelecao]

Have to agree. Just because Doncic will possibly get Fox more open looks? That doesn’t mean he’s going to hit them.
Fox does not look like a scorer. He talks like an Alpha Dog. But, is very inconsistent on the court.
If Doncic was the Pg, now that’s a different story. That’s where could thrive. But playing the 3, he’s going to get torn up. He won’t get half the looks or rebound opportunities he’s afforded in Europe. He obviously does not take his body seriously. Looks like he’s never seen the inside of a gym and Eats Taco Bell for breakfast. For me, that’s a red flag. Is he willing to train, commit to better dietary habits and drop about 10-15 lbs. I tell you he’s not going to have his way with the NBA 3s.

 

[ockingsfan]

One main difference is Kyrie, CP3, IT are all good shooters. Fox isn't. For him to be a John Wall where he's mainly getting to the rim, he needs the ball in his hands.

I still think it can work, but it would mean moving Doncic off the ball quite a bit more.

John Wall didn't come into the league a good shooter. He was initially all attack the rim. It took him a few years to really develop his shot.

Of course Fox will need to become a good and consistent shooter for any type of success to occur with him. That is why he really needs to be working on his shot every day.

With Doncic helping him by getting him more open looks, that should only help Fox hit more shot. Whether Fox starts making those shots are on him, Doncic can't control that.

I think Doncic will become a more consistent 3 point shooter. I think he will develop into a 40% knock down shooter in time.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Have to agree. Just because Doncic will possibly get Fox more open looks? That doesn’t mean he’s going to hit them.
Fox does not look like a scorer. He talks like an Alpha Dog. But, is very inconsistent on the court.
If Doncic was the Pg, now that’s a different story. That’s where could thrive. But playing the 3, he’s going to get torn up. He won’t get half the looks or rebound opportunities he’s afforded in Europe. He obviously does not take his body seriously. Looks like he’s never seen the inside of a gym and Eats Taco Bell for breakfast. For me, that’s a red flag. Is he willing to train, commit to better dietary habits and drop about 10-15 lbs. I tell you he’s not going to have his way with the NBA 3s.

Yeah, and if he sucks on defense at the PG position, who cares? Welcome to the NBA, where all the PGs are terrible on defense. Lillard made first team All-NBA. Curry is a two time MVP. Harden and Westbrook are MVPs. Doncic being a net minus on D at the PG spot wouldn’t matter much.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

John Wall didn't come into the league a good shooter. He was initially all attack the rim. It took him a few years to really develop his shot.

Of course Fox will need to become a good and consistent shooter for any type of success to occur with him. That is why he really needs to be working on his shot every day.

With Doncic helping him by getting him more open looks, that should only help Fox hit more shot. Whether Fox starts making those shots are on him, Doncic can't control that.

I think Doncic will become a more consistent 3 point shooter. I think he will develop into a 40% knock down shooter in time.

But, honestly, if I’m the FO, why wait for Fox’s shot when I can just trade for MPJ and run a Doncic/MPJ P&R or Pick & Pop all day and just cook up defenses?

 

[TaxMan]

I agree that they should be able to thrive together, but something is afoot. The MPJ hype is disproportionate. The Carter meeting is weird. We have our eye on a second pick between 6-10, I’m sure of it. Whether that’s taking on salary by facilitating a Lebron trade for the #8, or flipping Fox to Orlando for #6, I don’t know. But, we have plans for a second pick. And we’re taking Luka. TTP.

I love Fox, but he’s NEVER going to run a P&R as well as Doncic can today. It’s just not going to happen. He doesn’t have the instincts for it. I think they can play together, but Fox wants that max deal and to be the man. He’s not going to defer this early in his career, and I’m not saying he should. But, Doncic is just a genius with the ball in his hands. We can’t pass on that, and we can’t let an inferior player dictate how we use Doncic.

Last edit: ask yourself, why did we set up this meeting with Carter after Memphis and Dallas expressed heavy interest in MPJ? I think we’re looking at #6 for Fox.

It’s possible and a good theory. Maybe we’ve known all along Luka is the guy at 2 and now they are considering team fit around him. To me, they would need to really love someone at 6 to give up Fox. I still got the impression at the end of the year that everyone, including Joerger, really love his potential. The Carter workout is a little bit of a head scratcher.

 

[Hoovtrain]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1007763614395072512

I see little Vivek is still doing that stupid hang loose signal

 

[ESP47]

Yeah, and if he sucks on defense at the PG position, who cares? Welcome to the NBA, where all the PGs are terrible on defense. Lillard made first team All-NBA. Curry is a two time MVP. Harden and Westbrook are MVPs. Doncic being a net minus on D at the PG spot wouldn’t matter much.

I don't understand this line of thinking. LeBron basically plays point guard on offense but he doesn't guard point guards unless he has to on switches. Why does Doncic have to defend point guards just because he can pass the ball? His position is clearly SF right now so why play him out of position because he has an above average skill for his position? Dejounte Murray rebounds like a PF but you don't see him guarding 4's. He should be playing SF and guarding appropriately sized players.

He would be the worst defensive PG in the league. Even backup point guards like Ish Smith and the like would roast him if he had to guard them all game.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

I don't understand this line of thinking. LeBron basically plays point guard on offense but he doesn't guard point guards unless he has to on switches. Why does Doncic have to defend point guards just because he can pass the ball? His position is clearly SF right now so why play him out of position because he has an above average skill for his position? Dejounte Murray rebounds like a PF but you don't see him guarding 4's. He should be playing SF and guarding appropriately sized players.

He would be the worst defensive PG in the league. Even backup point guards like Ish Smith and the like would roast him if he had to guard them all game.

I didn’t say he’d be guarding PGs...just that minus defending from your PG spot is acceptable in today’s NBA. They might try to hide him on 4s, I don’t know. The idea is that you’re not hoping he can lock down the opposing SF.

 

[Suicide King]

I didn’t say he’d be guarding PGs...just that minus defending from your PG spot is acceptable in today’s NBA. They might try to hide him on 4s, I don’t know. The idea is that you’re not hoping he can lock down the opposing SF.

Luka has said he would love to play with Bogdan. I am sure you saw Bogdan body up on players and show surprisingly good on ball defense last season. If drafted I would wager that they will learn from one another, pick each others brains, and help each other become better players.

Hopefully, that type of mindset, that camaraderie and chemistry that Vlade covets that would exist between Luka and Bogdan spreads like wildfire within the locker room. I mean to be honest, we already have a good sense that most if not all of our guys enjoy playing with each other, and most of them are young and hungry and not used to losing.

I know Luka won't be able to guard the elite SF's of the league, but unless you have an elite defender? You are not stopping an elite offensive player at any position. However he will likely hold his own with the majority and keep getting better over the next decade.

Addendum: I really like Justin a lot, and think he will continue to be solid. However this is exactly why I wanted us to draft OG Anunoby. Imagine him backing up Luka at the 3.

 

[SacKings123]

Luka has said he would love to play with Bogdan. I am sure you saw Bogdan body up on players and show surprisingly good on ball defense last season. If drafted I would wager that they will learn from one another, pick each others brains, and help each other become better players.

Hopefully, that type of mindset, that camaraderie and chemistry that Vlade covets that would exist between Luka and Bogdan spreads like wildfire within the locker room. I mean to be honest, we already have a good sense that most if not all of our guys enjoy playing with each other, and most of them are young and hungry and not used to losing.

I know Luka won't be able to guard the elite SF's of the league, but unless you have an elite defender? You are not stopping and elite offensive player at any position. However he will likely hold his own with the majority and keep getting better over the next decade.

I think people are forgetting that culture and connection is a big thing when it comes to building a team. I'm pretty sure Vlade is well aware of that and if Luka is chosen on draft night, you can see glimpses of the early 2000 Kings with all of these young hungry kids growing together as a team. BTW anyone notice the diversity within the team?

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Neither is an elite shooter like Paul/harden.

Harden is a volume scorer for sure, but an elite shooter? Um, no. Far from it.
CP3 is a good shooter, but also not elite.

Circling back to Fox and Dončić, shooting may not be their strengths right now -- but it may very well be in time. They're both extremely young and appear to have good form.

 

[206Fan]

Harden is a volume scorer for sure, but an elite shooter? Um, no. Far from it.
CP3 is a good shooter, but also not elite.

Circling back to Fox and Dončić, shooting may not be their strengths right now -- but it may very well be in time. They're both extremely young and appear to have good form.

Harden is an elite shooter from all over the floor. His career 3pt % is only at 36.4, but it's only because he takes a ton of difficult contested shots. CP3 isn't elite, but he's a good shooter.

I'm not concerned about Doncic at all, but I am concerned about Fox. 3PT shooting is pretty bad, so it'll be interesting to see how he'll develop through the years. If we're talking about playing him alongside Doncic, then all he'd need to do is become a good catch and shoot 3pter.

 

[ockingsfan]

Last edit: ask yourself, why did we set up this meeting with Carter after Memphis and Dallas expressed heavy interest in MPJ? I think we’re looking at #6 for Fox.

I think the more likely scenario is that the Kings trade back from #2 to the #4-7 area and pick up assets, if we are not convinced of Doncic, MPJ or Bagley at #2 than trading Fox for a pick.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1007841822616444928

It’s tough for me to understand the FO’s Porter infatuation. I was a huge fan of Porter coming into this season but the injury and not proving himself in college should be detrimental to his case for being selected #2.

Dončić on the other seems to perfectly fit what we have going on. Amazing passer, moves the ball, will help with shooting and rebounding. Has developed in a winning environment.

I don’t see a case for Porter over Dončić.

 

[Tetsujin]

Doncic looks more 6’9”/6’10” next to the 7’1” Vlade. Of course Vlade could be slouching or something but it looks like Luka is as advertised in the size department.

 

[hrdboild]

Harden is an elite shooter from all over the floor. His career 3pt % is only at 36.4, but it's only because he takes a ton of difficult contested shots. CP3 isn't elite, but he's a good shooter.

I'm not concerned about Doncic at all, but I am concerned about Fox. 3PT shooting is pretty bad, so it'll be interesting to see how he'll develop through the years. If we're talking about playing him alongside Doncic, then all he'd need to do is become a good catch and shoot 3pter.

Yeah and Chris Paul shot a De'Aaron Fox-esque 28% from three his rookie season. That was after two years in college to Fox's one. It is possible for players to improve. Fox wasn't a bad shooter overall this year, he was inconsistent. And it looks like fatigue was a factor. Look at his month to month splits:

October: 33% on 9 shots over 7 games (small sample size)
November: 25% on 20 shots over 15 games (still adjusting to the longer three point line)
December 33% on 8 shots over 8 games (small sample size again, missed some games due to injury)
January: 42% on 39 shots over 14 games (elite shooting level, decent sample size)
February: 29% on 30 shots over 11 games (uh oh, back down to Earth -- started off the month 0 for 8 in the first 4 games though so the slump didn't last a whole month. He shot 36% from Feb 11th to 27th)
March: 17% on 29 shots over 15 games (the rookie wall or reversion to the mean?)
April: 33% on 18 shots over 5 games (suddenly he's a volume shooter, I think quality of competition was a factor here)

He started out the season shaky from range and had a truly awful March shooting the ball, but other than that he's around the 35% range which is league average most years. And that's as a 19 year old on a team where he needed to create most of his shots off the dribble. Projection wise he's fine. Players don't always follow standard growth curves of course, but I wouldn't be making personnel decisions yet on the assumption that he will never be a good shooter.

 

[206Fan]

Yeah and Chris Paul shot a De'Aaron Fox-esque 28% from three his rookie season. That was after two years in college to Fox's one. It is possible for players to improve. Fox wasn't a bad shooter overall this year, he was inconsistent. And it looks like fatigue was a factor. Look at his month to month splits:

October: 33% on 9 shots over 7 games (small sample size)
November: 25% on 20 shots over 15 games (still adjusting to the longer three point line)
December 33% on 8 shots over 8 games (small sample size again, missed some games due to injury)
January: 42% on 39 shots over 14 games (elite shooting level, decent sample size)
February: 29% on 30 shots over 11 games (uh oh, back down to Earth -- started off the month 0 for 8 in the first 4 games though so the slump didn't last a whole month. He shot 36% from Feb 11th to 27th)
March: 17% on 29 shots over 15 games (the rookie wall or reversion to the mean?)
April: 33% on 18 shots over 5 games (suddenly he's a volume shooter, I think quality of competition was a factor here)

He started out the season shaky from range and had a truly awful March shooting the ball, but other than that he's around the 35% range which is league average most years. And that's as a 19 year old on a team where he needed to create most of his shots off the dribble. Projection wise he's fine. Players don't always follow standard growth curves of course, but I wouldn't be making personnel decisions yet on the assumption that he will never be a good shooter.

Chris Paul's rookie 3pt % is a giant anomaly. The year after he shot 35%. Chris Paul shot 46.5% from 3pt in his freshman year and 47.4% in his sophomore year paired with his 83.8% FT shooting. Freshman Fox shot 24.6% from 3pt and 73.6% from FT. So comparing Paul's random off year to Fox's shooting is not a good comparison at all. CP3 and Fox were about the same age in their rookie year. Not saying it's impossible for Fox to improve, but I don't like the CP3 shooting progression comparison with the above considered.

Fox's 3pt shooting was up and down. I never said he would never be a good shooter, but I am concerned about his 3pt shooting Those numbers are all over the place. 33>25>42>29>17>33. That's a wall of inconsistencies, not necessarily progression. However, what I did like is how much more comfortable he was towards the end of the season shooting them. In this league, 31% is not acceptable for a PG. He's only a rookie, and as you said, he can improve. But shooting is arguably the 2nd most important skill you need as a PG. It's not the easiest thing to learn as we saw with Tyreke who took 4yrs to become a respectable shooter and 7yrs to become a good one.

 

[hrdboild]

Chris Paul's rookie 3pt % is a giant anomaly. The year after he shot 35%. Chris Paul shot 46.5% from 3pt in his freshman year and 47.4% in his sophomore year paired with his 83.8% FT shooting. Freshman Fox shot 24.6% from 3pt and 73.6% from FT. So comparing Paul's random off year to Fox's shooting is not a good comparison at all. CP3 and Fox were about the same age in their rookie year. Not saying it's impossible for Fox to improve, but I don't like the CP3 shooting progression comparison with the above considered.

Fox's 3pt shooting was up and down. I never said he would never be a good shooter, but I am concerned about his 3pt shooting Those numbers are all over the place. 33>25>42>29>17>33. That's a wall of inconsistencies, not necessarily progression. However, what I did like is how much more comfortable he was towards the end of the season shooting them. In this league, 31% is not acceptable for a PG. He's only a rookie, and as you said, he can improve. But shooting is arguably the 2nd most important skill you need as a PG. It's not the easiest thing to learn as we saw with Tyreke who took 4yrs to become a respectable shooter and 7yrs to become a good one.

It's not a wall of inconsistencies, look at the sample sizes. The difference between 17% and 35% on those 29 shots he took in March is 6 made baskets. If he had knocked down 2 more of his threes in November, 2 more in February, and 6 more in March he would be at 37% for the year. Are you really going to tell me that the outcome of 10 shots over 6 1/2 months is serious cause for concern? The whole point is that we don't know yet what will happen in season 2. roasthawg is the one that brought up Chris Paul -- a 13 year NBA veteran -- and implied that Fox might be a bad fit next to Doncic because he doesn't shoot the ball with nearly the same efficiency. Well, so far he's outpacing Chris Paul if we compare rookie seasons.

College shooting stats don't always translate to the pros. I don't think the "CP3 was better in college so we knew his percentage would improve" argument really holds up. It took Stauskas 4 years to find his range and he was elite in college too. A lot of guys never do. Kevin Durant is one of the best shooters in history and he shot 29% his rookie season. Can we at least give Fox a couple seasons before labeling him as a non-shooter for life? He was 6 for 6 in a game against San Antonio this year. You don't luck your way into 6 made threes in the same game.

 

[Ozymandias]

Lol at those willing to cast fox aside so Luka can take the reigns at PG. Lol. Totally clueless. If you're actually a Doncic fan why would you wish that upon him? It's fatally flawed move. Gonna spend 2 top5 picks on PG's before the year with no pick? What kind of half assed plan is that? Sounds like a good way to get everyone fired.

I dare anyone to name a more flimsy starting trio defensively than;

PG - Doncic
SG - Bogdan
SF - Jackson

It's the worst in the league............................................

Teams like the rockets and warriors can drop 140 in regulation vs that type of resistance

 

[Ozymandias]

Ppl here got the cersei lannister approach when it comes to Doncic, u'd have this city, what the kings have already built, burn to the ground so Luka could rule the ashes.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Lol at those willing to cast fox aside so Luka can take the reigns at PG. Lol. Totally clueless. If you're actually a Doncic fan why would you wish that upon him? It's fatally flawed move. Gonna spend 2 top5 picks on PG's before the year with no pick? What kind of half assed plan is that? Sounds like a good way to get everyone fired.

I dare anyone to name a more flimsy starting trio defensively than;

PG - Doncic
SG - Bogdan
SF - Jackson

It's the worst in the league............................................

Teams like the rockets and warriors can drop 140 in regulation vs that type of resistance

In what universe is Doncic defending PG and Jackson still starting?

 

[Kingsfan23]

Doncic looks more 6’9”/6’10” next to the 7’1” Vlade. Of course Vlade could be slouching or something but it looks like Luka is as advertised in the size department.

He’s playing PF

 

[King-Da-Yah]

In what universe is Doncic defending PG and Jackson still starting?

Ozy just really wants Bamba or JJJ. Luka is a complete scrub in his or her eyes...unfortunately. Like I always tell my kids, “everyone likes different things”

I don’t see it. I have watched every available Luka game these past 3 months. The kid has heart, and he got game!

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Nobody on the board who wants Luka wants him as a PG and to ship Fox.

smdh