Michael Porter Jr
- Thread starter funkykingston
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You're missing the point or purposely deflecting. It's one or the other.
@Joshoua just provided you with an example of player with seemingly textbook shooting form that never managed to be anything more than an average shooter. While you could end up being right about Porter and his future, the criteria from which you're basing the opinion is far from exact.
How McLemore and Porter compare as players isn't relevant to the discussion. However, comparing their seemingly picture perfect shooting forms and how they translate to the NBA is relevant.
Porter could be a phenomenal shooter or he could be another McLemore type that looks great but the results are less than stellar. Nobody knows.
@Joshoua just provided you with an example of player with seemingly textbook shooting form that never managed to be anything more than an average shooter. While you could end up being right about Porter and his future, the criteria from which you're basing the opinion is far from exact.
How McLemore and Porter compare as players isn't relevant to the discussion. However, comparing their seemingly picture perfect shooting forms and how they translate to the NBA is relevant.
Porter could be a phenomenal shooter or he could be another McLemore type that looks great but the results are less than stellar. Nobody knows.
First off, I'm old enough to remember Lebron in highschool, and I'm old enough to remember Wilts first year in the league. So get down off your high, contentious horse. I've been watching NBA basketball for over 50 freaking years. OK? Second, the only thing I compared about Lebron and Porter, is the fact that all we had to go on with Lebron was his highschool videos, just like Porter. I wasn't comparing them as players, except that both dominated in highschool. You, and many others want to take the main thing, highschool video's, and throw them out as any proof of how good Porter is, and then say he's not any good.
Was the competition Porter played against inferior for the most part? Yes, you bet!!!!! You know why? Because he was so dam good that he made them look inferior. Somehow, you want to turn that into a negative. I'm not saying the Kings should or should not draft Porter. What I'm saying is I'm tired of people just making up BS about him. I have a very hard time tolerating ignorance, and if not ignorance, then lying.
Was the competition Porter played against inferior for the most part? Yes, you bet!!!!! You know why? Because he was so dam good that he made them look inferior. Somehow, you want to turn that into a negative. I'm not saying the Kings should or should not draft Porter. What I'm saying is I'm tired of people just making up BS about him. I have a very hard time tolerating ignorance, and if not ignorance, then lying.
I think his point was that if you watched McLemore at Kansas, you would have been able to tell that he had all the tools, but either didn't know how, or was too timid to use them properly. McLemore's problem was between the ears. There was nothing wrong with his shot, just like there's nothing wrong with Porters shot. The difference between the two is the mentality, and that's half the battle. Porter is a far more confident, aggressive player, where McLemore was afraid of his own shadow.
I can guarantee you right now that Porter will be a way better player than McLemore, and it won't be close. Will he be a star, or a superstar, I don't know, but he certainly has the tools, and the mentality. I think that if he's healthy, he will be a star, and if we pass on him the same people that didn't want him, will be calling for Vlade's head for missing on Porter.
I can guarantee you right now that Porter will be a way better player than McLemore, and it won't be close. Will he be a star, or a superstar, I don't know, but he certainly has the tools, and the mentality. I think that if he's healthy, he will be a star, and if we pass on him the same people that didn't want him, will be calling for Vlade's head for missing on Porter.
Lebron showed special level basketball IQ as a high schooler, that combined with the rare combination of size, athleticism and strength made him special. MPJ high school tape shows a 6'10 very good shooter, above average athlete(not elite), with questioanble ball handling skills, basketball IQ, motor and a guy who plays with a hunch who just happend to have serious back surgery.
Doncic is the one whose tape shows special level basketball IQ, which is why I think he should be the pick, and his tape shows him playing against better competiton than MPJ has ever faced or Lebron ever faced until he made the NBA.
Doncic is the one whose tape shows special level basketball IQ, which is why I think he should be the pick, and his tape shows him playing against better competiton than MPJ has ever faced or Lebron ever faced until he made the NBA.
The part bolded above was never being contested. There's no need to go down that road.
And while you make valid points about Porter's shot, it still doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be great or elite in the NBA. While McLemore admittedly isn't the best example that could have been brought up, it's still an example that textbook form doesn't always translate. And there are many other examples that could be cited.
In short, the eyeball test from high school games isn't the best method. It would have been nice to see a lot more of him in college.
Having conveyed that, I want to make it clear that I'm not on the anti-Michael Porter bandwagon. In fact, I'm very intrigued by him. But I'm also cautious due to the back injury, as are many others it seems.
But if his health isn't in question, then I'd have him at the top along with Luka Dončić as the top 2 players in the draft.
The main point being made is that @Ozymandias overwhelming confidence in his own eye test doesn't equate to a certainty.
If Porter's name is called when the Kings are on the clock and they are overwhelmingly confident the back won't be an issue --- I won't be an unhappy Kings fan. But I do feel that Dončić is the lesser risk that is also likely to develop into a hi-impact player.
Thanks for chiming in, Baja. I always appreciate your insight.
And while you make valid points about Porter's shot, it still doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be great or elite in the NBA. While McLemore admittedly isn't the best example that could have been brought up, it's still an example that textbook form doesn't always translate. And there are many other examples that could be cited.
In short, the eyeball test from high school games isn't the best method. It would have been nice to see a lot more of him in college.
Having conveyed that, I want to make it clear that I'm not on the anti-Michael Porter bandwagon. In fact, I'm very intrigued by him. But I'm also cautious due to the back injury, as are many others it seems.
But if his health isn't in question, then I'd have him at the top along with Luka Dončić as the top 2 players in the draft.
The main point being made is that @Ozymandias overwhelming confidence in his own eye test doesn't equate to a certainty.
If Porter's name is called when the Kings are on the clock and they are overwhelmingly confident the back won't be an issue --- I won't be an unhappy Kings fan. But I do feel that Dončić is the lesser risk that is also likely to develop into a hi-impact player.
Thanks for chiming in, Baja. I always appreciate your insight.
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You do realize all these GMs have been scouting Porter Jr. For years? They know pretty much what he can and cannot do. This workout is more about showing them that he can still do it and that back isn't a problem. Porter was considered a top 3 prospect by pretty much everyone based on his talent prior to the injury. That is why most who are willing to draft him always qualify it with "if his medicals check out."
I think like many, this really is the huge/main/only(?) concern. That, and teams can't do their own medical evaluations.
You have the #2 pick and one of the best prospects (possibly the best, aside from his injury?) apparently played hurt for two years in HS, then was out for most of his single college season and the few games he did play were underwhelming due to returning from injury too soon. Did I get all the above right? I don't watch college so I'm just gathering data from what I read.
The injury is a back injury, which are notorious for lingering and causing issues. It may be fully healed, but it may also not be and he's just playing through pain or with painkillers in order to show well and get drafted high. We really don't know, and we aren't allowed to perform any first-hand workouts or physicals. We finally jumped up in the draft and have no first round pick next year. The front office is likely sacked in a year or two if the team does not show significant improvement this year. This is potentially an Oden-type situation, and we are not allowed to do our own physical? And y'all are OK with that?
I have nothing against him, and if we select him I will be right there cheering him on with everyone else because I hope the team makes the smart choice and gets the BPA. But the injury thing is just too big in my eyes. If he were to play another year in college and show his back is healed, I'd be on board 100%. But I just can't jump on this bandwagon given my discussion above. And maybe I'm being a little too conservative in the approach, but given the magnitude of this pick and the impact on the team, that is how I am leaning.
I would just hope that if he is the pick, the Kings have rock-solid evidence that he is again at 100% health wise....
You have the #2 pick and one of the best prospects (possibly the best, aside from his injury?) apparently played hurt for two years in HS, then was out for most of his single college season and the few games he did play were underwhelming due to returning from injury too soon. Did I get all the above right? I don't watch college so I'm just gathering data from what I read.
The injury is a back injury, which are notorious for lingering and causing issues. It may be fully healed, but it may also not be and he's just playing through pain or with painkillers in order to show well and get drafted high. We really don't know, and we aren't allowed to perform any first-hand workouts or physicals. We finally jumped up in the draft and have no first round pick next year. The front office is likely sacked in a year or two if the team does not show significant improvement this year. This is potentially an Oden-type situation, and we are not allowed to do our own physical? And y'all are OK with that?
I have nothing against him, and if we select him I will be right there cheering him on with everyone else because I hope the team makes the smart choice and gets the BPA. But the injury thing is just too big in my eyes. If he were to play another year in college and show his back is healed, I'd be on board 100%. But I just can't jump on this bandwagon given my discussion above. And maybe I'm being a little too conservative in the approach, but given the magnitude of this pick and the impact on the team, that is how I am leaning.
I would just hope that if he is the pick, the Kings have rock-solid evidence that he is again at 100% health wise....
Totally with you on this.
However, if the Kings do end up selecting Porter, I sure hope it ends up where we got lucky and he would have went #1 w/o the back concerns then develops into the next freakish 6'10"+player in mold of KD, AD, Giannis or Dirk.
But w/o the Kings medical staff being able to analyze and sign off via an independent examination, I just can't champion selecting him at #2. I believe it's too risky, even if Porter becomes the next great thing in hindsight.
However, if the Kings do end up selecting Porter, I sure hope it ends up where we got lucky and he would have went #1 w/o the back concerns then develops into the next freakish 6'10"+player in mold of KD, AD, Giannis or Dirk.
But w/o the Kings medical staff being able to analyze and sign off via an independent examination, I just can't champion selecting him at #2. I believe it's too risky, even if Porter becomes the next great thing in hindsight.
There is another narrative regarding MPJ—one that brings out the cynic in me—time. I have defended every Vlade move except the Sixers trade, and even then stated that the idea was sound, merely poorly executed. But, he and the entire front office should be on the hot seat next year. If they don’t win 35+ games then they all need to be fired. We cannot go into next offseason with two max slots available and an obviously lame duck front office. We will need to clean house and hope the new GM can use his pre-existing connections to sign at least one headliner to a max slot.
However, the narrative with MPJ is he needs time. He missed college with an injury, you see, and will need time to adjust to simply playing again, let alone NBA level offenses/defenses, etc. Why, we’ll probably just tread water next year, but let me tell you, this kid is going to be “SPECIAL” in 3 years. You have to give the front office time to work with our #2 pick, MPJ. It’s only fair, after all. And, we’re going to struggle to attract free agents before MPJ turns the corner...you understand? Right? But, hey, look at these McDonald’s highlights and tell me the kid won’t be Amazing once it clicks.
Luka puts these guys on the clock, no buffer. No cute narrative. No extra time. I love Vlade and Peja, but taking MPJ over Luka is dubious for more than one reason. I hope our front office succeeds, but make no mistake, these guys are never getting another NBA job if they don’t make it work in Sacramento first. Luka gives them just this one last summer, and then they have to simply hope it works this season.
However, the narrative with MPJ is he needs time. He missed college with an injury, you see, and will need time to adjust to simply playing again, let alone NBA level offenses/defenses, etc. Why, we’ll probably just tread water next year, but let me tell you, this kid is going to be “SPECIAL” in 3 years. You have to give the front office time to work with our #2 pick, MPJ. It’s only fair, after all. And, we’re going to struggle to attract free agents before MPJ turns the corner...you understand? Right? But, hey, look at these McDonald’s highlights and tell me the kid won’t be Amazing once it clicks.
Luka puts these guys on the clock, no buffer. No cute narrative. No extra time. I love Vlade and Peja, but taking MPJ over Luka is dubious for more than one reason. I hope our front office succeeds, but make no mistake, these guys are never getting another NBA job if they don’t make it work in Sacramento first. Luka gives them just this one last summer, and then they have to simply hope it works this season.
The flip side is that Vlade has publicly given himself a time limit on this rebuild (which means he may have been given the time limit privately by Vivek, a notoriously impatient owner), so one would think that picking Doncic, who everyone thinks will contribute day 1, would be a far safer move on his part. Of course this assumes that Vlade sees Doncic as talented enough to move the needle. He might not.
You do make an interesting point though! Vlade may very well see Porter Jr as the type of prospect that might buy him a few more seasons. High ceiling, but unlike a guy like Bagely he has the built in excuse of missing the college season after dominating high school.
Can the draft get here already? This is starting to drive me nuts! Lord knows the rumors are gonna really start churning out as we get closer to the big day!
You do make an interesting point though! Vlade may very well see Porter Jr as the type of prospect that might buy him a few more seasons. High ceiling, but unlike a guy like Bagely he has the built in excuse of missing the college season after dominating high school.
Can the draft get here already? This is starting to drive me nuts! Lord knows the rumors are gonna really start churning out as we get closer to the big day!
If the idea was to draft a kid with potential but who needs time to develop, Mo Bamba or Jaren Jackson make more sense than Porter. Both bigs should help with shotblocking early on but will need time to add strength and develop their offensive game.
In contrast, I expect Porter to have a very good summer league showing. It's exactly the type of environment that he should shine in. In fact, I think it would be a major red flag if he didn't.
MPJ has more risks than anyone in this draft, but every prospect in this draft comes with their own risks. When evaluating prospects, you have to do your due diligence and scout every player. Phoenix holds the #1 pick, but you don't see them narrowing their horizon to Ayton or bust.. OR Doncic or bust...OR even Ayton vs. Doncic. Here's the list of guys who they already brought in or officially planning to bring in:
- DeAndre Ayton
- Marvin Bagley
- Jaren Jackson Jr
- Mo Bamba
I agree with you that all the top prospects have risks, even my guy Doncic. But you said it yourself, Porter has MORE risks than everyone. He's unproven at a level higher than HS AND could be a medical risk.
Too big a gamble at 2 IMHO.
So I hope you're right about us freaking out over nothing! I have no problem with us checking all the top guys out btw. Due diligence is important.
Too big a gamble at 2 IMHO.
So I hope you're right about us freaking out over nothing! I have no problem with us checking all the top guys out btw. Due diligence is important.
This is how I personally feel about the fan perception in this year's draft. 80% of Kings fans have not watched more than 1 game of the top 10 prospects in this year's class. In the end, most fans are basing all of their opinions about a prospect from highlight videos, draft experts, or other fans.
Now that we are closely approaching the draft, some more fans have decided to watch actual game footage. From that, they're able to come to their own conclusions. Positively, maybe Bagley isn't as raw as all of these draft pundits say he is. He has a nice elbow jumper, he has a great feel for the offensive floor. Vise-versa, they might see that Mo Bamba's offensive game is raw. His instincts are developing and he has no go-to move. Needs more work on that end than draft pundits say he does. Same with Porter Jr. Just guessing, others might've only watched his 2 very poor games at Missouri and went "nope, he's a blackhole with 0 handles and 0 athleticism".. but they might've gone back and watched his games before his surgery and saw that maybe there's more to him than what we saw at Missouri.
MPJ's stock is up and down, but I haven't seen anyone declare love for him aside from James Ham and Doug. I think what we're seeing on this site is more fans coming to his defense. (p.s. the Doncic or bust crowd scares me, I'm glad we don't have to deal with it on KF where a lot of posters are very open to this draft pick, great for discussion..and it's what makes this the best kings fan site)
He's a big gamble at #2, but I don't think we should be freaked out over this draft pick. I've been one of the most critical fans ever of this regime. I think the Philly trade is one of the worst I've ever seen. I think a certain somebody is not qualified enough to hold as high of a position he does. HOWEVER, I do believe that the Kings will get this pick right. I didn't even have this much confidence in last year's draft, but I think we've got enough FO pieces in play that we'll be alright with whoever we draft at #2..even if it is MPJ with his high injury risk. I believe in both our medical staff and strength/conditioning. I think Harry Giles will play an underrated part in the FO's decision on whether or not they'll consider MPJ at #2. MPJ's knees is nowhere as bad as Gile's knees, BUT they've gone through the motions with him. They have experience in dealing with a player who's plagued by injuries. They'll heavily take account of that when discussing MPJ's back. Is this something they want to go through again? Is this something the Kings can handle? Is this something they want to go through with 2 young players on the team? Or is it too much risk? Too much to handle? For all the crappiness with our team, none of our players except for Tyreke have had serious injuries. Rudy suffered 1 freak accident that could've happened to anybody. Aside from that, there's nothing major I can recall. Cousins has been primarily healthy for most of his 8years here. We've never had any problems with that side of basketball unlike a few teams in the NBA. So with that in mind, it puts me at ease if MPJ did end up being the pick. However, I don't think he's our pick anyways...but that's just me.
Now that we are closely approaching the draft, some more fans have decided to watch actual game footage. From that, they're able to come to their own conclusions. Positively, maybe Bagley isn't as raw as all of these draft pundits say he is. He has a nice elbow jumper, he has a great feel for the offensive floor. Vise-versa, they might see that Mo Bamba's offensive game is raw. His instincts are developing and he has no go-to move. Needs more work on that end than draft pundits say he does. Same with Porter Jr. Just guessing, others might've only watched his 2 very poor games at Missouri and went "nope, he's a blackhole with 0 handles and 0 athleticism".. but they might've gone back and watched his games before his surgery and saw that maybe there's more to him than what we saw at Missouri.
MPJ's stock is up and down, but I haven't seen anyone declare love for him aside from James Ham and Doug. I think what we're seeing on this site is more fans coming to his defense. (p.s. the Doncic or bust crowd scares me, I'm glad we don't have to deal with it on KF where a lot of posters are very open to this draft pick, great for discussion..and it's what makes this the best kings fan site)
He's a big gamble at #2, but I don't think we should be freaked out over this draft pick. I've been one of the most critical fans ever of this regime. I think the Philly trade is one of the worst I've ever seen. I think a certain somebody is not qualified enough to hold as high of a position he does. HOWEVER, I do believe that the Kings will get this pick right. I didn't even have this much confidence in last year's draft, but I think we've got enough FO pieces in play that we'll be alright with whoever we draft at #2..even if it is MPJ with his high injury risk. I believe in both our medical staff and strength/conditioning. I think Harry Giles will play an underrated part in the FO's decision on whether or not they'll consider MPJ at #2. MPJ's knees is nowhere as bad as Gile's knees, BUT they've gone through the motions with him. They have experience in dealing with a player who's plagued by injuries. They'll heavily take account of that when discussing MPJ's back. Is this something they want to go through again? Is this something the Kings can handle? Is this something they want to go through with 2 young players on the team? Or is it too much risk? Too much to handle? For all the crappiness with our team, none of our players except for Tyreke have had serious injuries. Rudy suffered 1 freak accident that could've happened to anybody. Aside from that, there's nothing major I can recall. Cousins has been primarily healthy for most of his 8years here. We've never had any problems with that side of basketball unlike a few teams in the NBA. So with that in mind, it puts me at ease if MPJ did end up being the pick. However, I don't think he's our pick anyways...but that's just me.
Let me decipher this tweet.
"Memphis has targeted Luka Doncic and hope to overhype their love of MPJ so that the Kings sees how bad Memphis likes MPJ, thus tricking the Kings into taking MPJ #2, then Bagley goes #3 and finally Memphis gets their man Doncic at #4."
This smoke screen stuff is getting crazy!
"Memphis has targeted Luka Doncic and hope to overhype their love of MPJ so that the Kings sees how bad Memphis likes MPJ, thus tricking the Kings into taking MPJ #2, then Bagley goes #3 and finally Memphis gets their man Doncic at #4."
This smoke screen stuff is getting crazy!
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And that might be an understatement. Memphis can't trade a first-rounder until 2023 (obviously they could swap #4 for #1 this year). And they have basically nothing of inherent value - Conley and Gasol have very large contracts and the rest is meh. I kinda think Dillon Brooks could carve out a little niche for himself in the league, but Brooks + #4 is NOT snagging #1.
This is probably the dead-on correct read.
This is probably the dead-on correct read.
Actually the competition in the HS is inferior to both NCAA and Euroligue. While I acknoledge MPJ is talented, what he didn't show is LBJ, KG or KB skills level. Shooting over players can make you NBA superstar (see Dirk from Germany), however you have to be elite shooter for that to happen. What we haven't seen is how it goes against more athletic, bigger, more mature players. Nobody said he can't be a good or even great player. Odds are just better for other prospects based on available information, at least from my perspective. Even without taking injury into account.