Bizarro Wide World of Sports Lin Championship
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But our vets were our worst players for the majority of the season though. Z-Bo has been a defensive sieve all year, GT turned into a chucker as the year went on, Vince has had a negligible +/- impact aside from that time he went supernova against the Cavs, and George Hill was a one man tanking army during his short time with the team. Really the only vet who has really been consistently good this season has been Kosta Koufos and most people forget about him because he's our fourth big man and not particularly exciting.
You can't act like this team came out of the gates playing to win to start the season. We lost to the Hawks by fifty points for pete's sake.
The main issue here is that teams like the Hawks, Mavs, Suns, and Magic are so bad that teams that apparently accumulated too much young talent but not enough to turn good in the blink of an eye have no way to not beat them. The Grizzlies, on the other hand, have had an existential crisis to start the year and really really remind me of the Post-Adelman Kings, complete with horrific ownership strife and overpaid free agent signing with bad knees (Parsons). While I have faith in the Hawks and Mavs to develop whoever they get in the draft, I would not be surprised to see the Magic, Suns, and Grizz back in the same position next year with another lotto guy ruined in their cycle of doom.
You can't act like this team came out of the gates playing to win to start the season. We lost to the Hawks by fifty points for pete's sake.
The main issue here is that teams like the Hawks, Mavs, Suns, and Magic are so bad that teams that apparently accumulated too much young talent but not enough to turn good in the blink of an eye have no way to not beat them. The Grizzlies, on the other hand, have had an existential crisis to start the year and really really remind me of the Post-Adelman Kings, complete with horrific ownership strife and overpaid free agent signing with bad knees (Parsons). While I have faith in the Hawks and Mavs to develop whoever they get in the draft, I would not be surprised to see the Magic, Suns, and Grizz back in the same position next year with another lotto guy ruined in their cycle of doom.
There's 16 pages of tanking discussion in this thread and more in the other one on "cheating", so I guess I'm not sure why you would choose this particular game of all games to vent your frustration.
As Tetsu has said, claiming that the vets contributed significantly to wins is debatable, and there are many reasons why we shouldn't have just given all of Temple and ZBo's minutes to Bruno and Sampson and Cooley.
What I do take issue with is this idea that winning 27 games with Cousins = top 10 NBA player, just need to surround him with the right pieces and HELLO CHAMPIONSHIP, while winning 27 games with kids + ancient Vince and ZBo = we are screwed for next decade and there's no future. Now maybe you're not actually all doom and gloom, but simply annoyed that we don't have a good chance at a top 3 pick this year which would undoubtedly help, and if so I apologize. But if you think that this team has no talent, no star players, and if we don't pick top 3 this draft you're not supporting this team anymore then I take issue with that. I don't know about you, but I base things on actual results (speaking of which, it's time to whip out the old WL prediction thread and see how we're all faring).
As Tetsu has said, claiming that the vets contributed significantly to wins is debatable, and there are many reasons why we shouldn't have just given all of Temple and ZBo's minutes to Bruno and Sampson and Cooley.
What I do take issue with is this idea that winning 27 games with Cousins = top 10 NBA player, just need to surround him with the right pieces and HELLO CHAMPIONSHIP, while winning 27 games with kids + ancient Vince and ZBo = we are screwed for next decade and there's no future. Now maybe you're not actually all doom and gloom, but simply annoyed that we don't have a good chance at a top 3 pick this year which would undoubtedly help, and if so I apologize. But if you think that this team has no talent, no star players, and if we don't pick top 3 this draft you're not supporting this team anymore then I take issue with that. I don't know about you, but I base things on actual results (speaking of which, it's time to whip out the old WL prediction thread and see how we're all faring).
That's also pretty disingenuous. You don't need to create a strawman to make a point. If you don't think the Kings did a horrificly poor job surrounding Cousins with a supporting cast then I don't know what to tell you. You could also argue that we were in a worse position with Cousins at 27 wins than we are with the current team (I'm not going to make that argument at all because it's wrong), but that wouldn't mean that our current situation is what it should be. It wouldn't mean that we've been doing the right thing. If you think it does mean that, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
Tetsujin made a good post with valid points, but we'll have to disagree about the degree to which Z-Bo and the other vets, at times, contributed to unnecessary wins.
Tetsujin made a good post with valid points, but we'll have to disagree about the degree to which Z-Bo and the other vets, at times, contributed to unnecessary wins.
Yes, whereas the supporting cast of 41 year old Vince Carter and 36 year old Zach Randolph is a rich man's dream. Our 1st and 2nd young players must be so bad that we can even win as many games as the great and mighty Cousins, what with all the vet help they are getting.
It's a simple question right - should Kings with Cousins have been tanking since they won <30 games every year?
It's a simple question right - should Kings with Cousins have been tanking since they won <30 games every year?
I'd appreciate if you could go back to my previous post as I made an edit, I'm very interested to hear your reasoning. I don't think you're grasping my point at all, you're more interested in trying to somehow apportion blame to Cousins for our previous poor records rather than acknowledging the failures of our FO. I'm not really interested in that debate as it's non-sensical to primarily blame Cousins.
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No, I am not apportioning blame to Cousins. I am saying, that when you consider that records are equal and driven in large by a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players, I don't see how anybody (not necessarily you, but typically a stance most hardcore tankers would take) can conclude that we are in a worse-off position than we were in those years with Cousins, because at worst a group of 1st and 2nd year players have taken us as far as Cousins ever did, more or less. Again, you can't tell me in good faith that the vets on this team are world beaters, and even George Hill while here was pretty bad. And if you were hopeful with a core of Evans or IT and Cousins, then there's no reason not to feel hopeful with this group of young guys that have led us to just as many wins.
The point of tanking is for talent acquisition. Few were ever advocating tanking when we had Cousins despite our W/L record at the time, suggesting that the draft was not viewed with the same level of necessity as it is today. My question is - if a YOUNG bunch of players (again emphasis, 1st and 2nd year players) are leading us to as many wins, why do you then feel that this year HAD to be a tanking season from the get go?
The point of tanking is for talent acquisition. Few were ever advocating tanking when we had Cousins despite our W/L record at the time, suggesting that the draft was not viewed with the same level of necessity as it is today. My question is - if a YOUNG bunch of players (again emphasis, 1st and 2nd year players) are leading us to as many wins, why do you then feel that this year HAD to be a tanking season from the get go?
Yes, the point of tanking is to get a player like Cousins. We failed again and again to draft well or get him any real help. We spiffed on pick after pick after pick. Having a bunch of decent/good young players will get you to 27 wins, as will having a star without a supporting cast. I presume your point is that Cousins had a better supporting cast than the current young guys. But you can't equate multiple young guys to one player (Cousins). Our talent is more spread out now but we still don't have anyone that will take us far, or at least they haven't emerged yet. I'm fairly certain that had we kept Cousins, brought Bogdan over, and drafted Mitchell then we'd be in quite a different situation. That's what a good GM would have done. It's a moot point now and we're left in the same mediocre position but with limited upside. We had mediocre upside with Cousins but that was due to incompetence. No team with an elite young star should end up in that position.
I'm not getting into the Mitchell debate. The above is an example of what a really good GM could have easily pulled off with our resources at the time.
I'm not getting into the Mitchell debate. The above is an example of what a really good GM could have easily pulled off with our resources at the time.
The issue I have is that you're accounting for incompetence, as if it was accepted at the time. The argument is essentially that we had a FO that couldn't do anything with an elite player, so because we're winning the same amount of games with young players now, we shouldn't be upset or want to get a star player. The point is that we were only bad with Cousins primarily because of a terrible FO. It's pointless comparing the two situations because we should have been a playoff team with Cousins if we had a decent front office.
You say "limited upside", I say 5-6 years of supposed upside didn't get us any further, and in that sense having talent spread out (diversification) is arguably even better. Let's also not pretend like it was only Cousins and nobody else, as if I was comparing 1 player to 5. Also .. we wouldn't have a pick for Mitchell if we didn't trade Cousins.
"We failed again and again to draft well or get him any real help" .. coupled with your current belief that the organization remains incompetent, why then are you putting such hope in the draft? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the guys we already have win games?
"We failed again and again to draft well or get him any real help" .. coupled with your current belief that the organization remains incompetent, why then are you putting such hope in the draft? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the guys we already have win games?
Which is again, simply not proven.
Tell me exactly why a Kings team with Cousins and nobody else is better than a team with Fox, Hield, Bogs and Skal? What actual proof do you have of this, that makes drafting a "star like Cousins" so important? You have already accepted this "fact" that with Cousins we had a star player, while with our current cast we do not, despite the win totals being the same, and supporting casts being at best equal. What's the basis of this?
If this were in a vacuum and you asked me, "Mac, do you want a higher draft pick?", of course I'd say yes. But your advocating tanking from day 1 means that the young guys probably would not be playing as well as they are now, and the team would probably not be as supportive of one another as they are now.
Tell me exactly why a Kings team with Cousins and nobody else is better than a team with Fox, Hield, Bogs and Skal? What actual proof do you have of this, that makes drafting a "star like Cousins" so important? You have already accepted this "fact" that with Cousins we had a star player, while with our current cast we do not, despite the win totals being the same, and supporting casts being at best equal. What's the basis of this?
If this were in a vacuum and you asked me, "Mac, do you want a higher draft pick?", of course I'd say yes. But your advocating tanking from day 1 means that the young guys probably would not be playing as well as they are now, and the team would probably not be as supportive of one another as they are now.
Again, you're confused. I don't know how I can make it more clear. I never claimed our team with Cousins was in a better situation than the current team. But that's due to organisational incompetence, which we appear to disagree on.
When you have a top 10 player, you have more options than just the draft, although that is definitely the most important avenue for a franchise like ours even with a star talent, especially in the early years. Unfortunately we drafted multiple busts, and I don't think that's exactly up for debate.
Your question appears to be, why do we need to tank now if we're not in a worse position than with Cousins, and we didn't need to tank then. It's because we don't have an elite talent at the moment, and you're not going anywhere without one. It's that simple. If Fox or someone else explodes next year then it's a different conversation, but I don't like the odds of that, and would much prefer to get a top talent to play alongside him in this draft.
We appear to be going around in circles. I think you don't believe we were incompetent over the years since we drafted Cousins. I would have to strongly disagree with that.
When you have a top 10 player, you have more options than just the draft, although that is definitely the most important avenue for a franchise like ours even with a star talent, especially in the early years. Unfortunately we drafted multiple busts, and I don't think that's exactly up for debate.
Your question appears to be, why do we need to tank now if we're not in a worse position than with Cousins, and we didn't need to tank then. It's because we don't have an elite talent at the moment, and you're not going anywhere without one. It's that simple. If Fox or someone else explodes next year then it's a different conversation, but I don't like the odds of that, and would much prefer to get a top talent to play alongside him in this draft.
We appear to be going around in circles. I think you don't believe we were incompetent over the years since we drafted Cousins. I would have to strongly disagree with that.
That's a fair point that I missed (unless we picked lower than 10), but the point remains the same. We had many chances to draft help for Cousins and weren't able to do so
What you're suggesting is basically giving up all hope due to FO incompetency. Regardless of who the GM is, the odds are higher of getting a good player at the top of the draft. The lower you go, the less belief I have in this FO of getting a good player. If it was as simple as simply winning with the current group, I'd go with that, but obviously that's not the case.
What you're suggesting is basically giving up all hope due to FO incompetency. Regardless of who the GM is, the odds are higher of getting a good player at the top of the draft. The lower you go, the less belief I have in this FO of getting a good player. If it was as simple as simply winning with the current group, I'd go with that, but obviously that's not the case.
That's the way I see it too.
As nice as it is to beat the Lakers they basically beat us again with this win. I hate the position we are in. Year after year of a poor product on the floor, subpar draft positions and lukewarm draft picks because of multiple front offices that display zero competence in this business. I hate the tank, but IMO unless we get Ayton, Donic, or Bagley in this draft its a crap shoot and we are likely to go nowhere fast.
As nice as it is to beat the Lakers they basically beat us again with this win. I hate the position we are in. Year after year of a poor product on the floor, subpar draft positions and lukewarm draft picks because of multiple front offices that display zero competence in this business. I hate the tank, but IMO unless we get Ayton, Donic, or Bagley in this draft its a crap shoot and we are likely to go nowhere fast.
As for the vets, early in season they did go off for a number of wins especially ZBo and Hill for a few....but i think the biggest contributing factor of the vets was making our bench vastly stronger than all the other taking teams....Zbos defense didnt always matter, that depended on matchup...and in those games when both teams hit draughts and our youth were figuring it out, we would have lost but for Zbo smashing in for 20+ points. Id say clearly Zbo added 5 victorys, Vince won the cav game, Temple beat orlando and 1 other terrible team simgle handedly. And as noted koufos has been solud all year. Hill won our first victory on his rare great game.....without hill and Zbo, id wager its a good bet we would be under 20 wins right now.
Now wpuld our young guys look as competent today as they do without ZBo and Hill and Temple playing the role they did? Not sure. Possible they would look terrible without that veteran guiding hand. Or maybe they would have figured things out just the same, or faster without the "training wheels" and more NBA mins.
Now wpuld our young guys look as competent today as they do without ZBo and Hill and Temple playing the role they did? Not sure. Possible they would look terrible without that veteran guiding hand. Or maybe they would have figured things out just the same, or faster without the "training wheels" and more NBA mins.
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Hilarious that "now" thays a bad win....maybe domt wait until last few games of season to begin Cooley Sampson Bruno Hayes getting big mins
Napiet is fantastic. Pretty sure he was completely on the other side of the fence regarding wins earlier in year...why is this one not just as moral and culture building as the others?
Napiet is fantastic. Pretty sure he was completely on the other side of the fence regarding wins earlier in year...why is this one not just as moral and culture building as the others?
In reply to not being in position to draft higher had we kept cousins.....the dude had bad feet at least 1 year we could have chose t shut him down ala Memphis and Conley then went with a G league fishing trip to finish the season. In his earlier seasons could have sent him to fat camp early too and done the same.
the only way to lose that game last name night was to bench Buddy and Bogdan. Zbo did not play, Kosta did not play, Temple did not play, WCS was in foul trouble, Skal left with an injury, Cooley Sampson Hayes played heavy minutes. i do not know what else could have been done. the lakers are horrible.
You're really going to pick that hill to take your stand? I'm sorry, DD, but even I - one of the ultimate DMC proponents - think the best thing this franchise did was finally pull the plug and let DMC go. You can try to rewrite history all you like but he was NOT ever going to succeed here. Too much had happened, too many bridges had been burnt. Yes, he loved Sacramento but it wasn't a healthy kind of love. In New Orleans, he's finding his stride and will reach a much higher plateau than he ever would have here.
But you know what? This thread isn't about DMC. It's about keeping track of the teams battling for the bottom of the standings to get to the top of the lottery.
Every post of your seems to be angry. I'm sorry but there's been a crapload of that this year around here. Maybe take a couple of deep breaths and relax a bit? The team is gonna do what the team is gonna do whether you have a stroke or not.
But you know what? This thread isn't about DMC. It's about keeping track of the teams battling for the bottom of the standings to get to the top of the lottery.
Every post of your seems to be angry. I'm sorry but there's been a crapload of that this year around here. Maybe take a couple of deep breaths and relax a bit? The team is gonna do what the team is gonna do whether you have a stroke or not.
It was funny listening to grant’s opening today. The realization of what the kings have done this season seems to have fully set in with him. They didn’t fully commit to the lottery and they are now going to pay the price. Right or wrong, other teams committed to giving themselves the highest chance to get a top 3 pick. The kings didn’t. Oh well. Onward and upw.........
Eh.......this IS the kings. I’ll just say onward.
Eh.......this IS the kings. I’ll just say onward.
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