Kings waiving papa morphed into Vlade sucks

[Suicide King]

You are right, the Cousins trade yes - it made a lot of people unhappy. And a lot of the rich people purchased luxury seats to utilize for clients etc. Cousins produced an entertaining brand of basketball. He was a star - Nobody wants to watch scrubs. I think initially a lot of people were ok with the trade but they didn't realize/understand the amount of rebuilding that was coming.

The problem is you cannot raise the prices out the roof if you plan on rebuilding. When the arena opened - Vivek Vlade etc sold everyone on a win now mentality, set the prices that way then switched gears to rebuild and luxury ticket holders are not happy about that. As I said, money talks, and Vivek is hearing it and listening. We are a long way off from being competitive and this team has no star players right now/yet (hopefully one of them becomes one like Cousins). It is a tough situation.

I can completely respect this viewpoint, however, to those who spend the big bucks supporting their team in your scenario, do they really believe firing either the coach or the GM at this juncture will somehow make things right? I mean, common sense would seem to indicate that it would make seeing a .500 plus season that much further out of reach. New coach=new system. New GM = new team construction vision. Then you have to get everyone on the same page again.

 

[VF21]

I am not a part of the Kings organization but I do believe I am in a position where I hear more than most.

No offense whatsoever, but you're gonna find out that doesn't generally go over well. Kings fans around here are a skeptical bunch. They will always want to know sources. I'm just giving you a heads up to not be surprised if you're called out. One thing a lot of us have learned over the years is most people who claim insider knowledge don't have it and those that do don't claim it. Just sayin'...

 

[VF21]

I promise I am not part of the team in any way. And the only way I will go anywhere is when I am busy with work! lol

I think he meant the poster in question was escorted out.

 

[AleksandarN]

People talk about Mitchell is a franchise talent coming out of the draft. Then why the hell wasnt he picked top 3 in the draft. If only Vlade and the others GMs had hind sight like you guys do. Really then the every GM that passed on Mitchell should have been fired. This is gettting rediclous

 

[King Baller]

Yea, I have no GM experience whatsoever.

As a casual basketball fan, I'm pretty sure I could have done a better job with drafting and player acquisition than Vlade...

OK who would you have drafted at #13 in 2016? It has to be someone taken after #12 in the first round and you can't pick DeJounte Murray!

I think Vlade did a great job in the 2016 and 2017 drafts. Would trading for Bogie even have occurred to most of us? Getting Bogie with the #8 pick and adding Skal was great in 2016. The beauty of what Vlade did in these drafts is he spread out the risk by trading for more picks.

Firing Vlade or Joerger at this point would set the Kings back 3 to 5 years. What were those of you calling for this expecting?

I repeat what were those of you calling for this expecting?

There were no MJ's available at #13 in 2016 people

 

[whozit]

OK who would you have drafted at #13 in 2016? It has to be someone taken after #12 in the first round and you can't pick DeJounte Murray!

I think Vlade did a great job in the 2016 and 2017 drafts. Would trading for Bogie even have occurred to most of us? Getting Bogie with the #8 pick and adding Skal was great in 2016. The beauty of what Vlade did in these drafts is he spread out the risk by trading for more picks.

Firing Vlade or Joerger at this point would set the Kings back 3 to 5 years. What were those of you calling for this expecting?

I repeat what were those of you calling for this expecting?

There were no MJ's available at #13 in 2016 people

I like this simply because the team cannot continue to change directions at every whim. Vlade has made mistakes but there appears to be direction and a vision going forward. At the end of next year if the team is floundering then it should be brought up in conversation (his deadline). Floundering is not simply not making the playoffs. I would hope that one plan would be given the time to succeed.

 

[Jeremy Fraser]

Vlade has made mistakes but there appears to be direction and a vision going forward.

This x 1000. It's as if people forget how truly disastrous of a situation he took over. A low lottery treadmill team with a bunch of busts and terrible contracts. I really would like to hear what moves he could have made that puts us in a significantly better situation at this point in time.

 

[dude12]

I really haven't read this whole thread, felt like its just another over reaction to moves made, but if people are asking for him to be fired, that is asinine. There is a clear path going forward and the rebuild has been accelerated because of the accumulation of picks in the last 2 drafts. Now for those who want to behead Vlade for the 2 young guys just let go.....the Chriss trade was made with the idea of getting a better chance of landing a player or 2 who actually work out. Bogi and Skal from THAT draft is pretty ****ing good when you look at how bad that draft has turned out. Can he be criticized for the Papa pick? Sure but credit has to go to the move made to acquire Bogi and Skal.

This last draft appears to have brought our franchise PG, a role playing SF, and possibly the best big we have drafted since Cousins in Giles....add in Mason. It's turning out to be a damn good draft.

The signed FA's are doing exactly what they were brought here for....help develop the young guys and dial in the culture. For all the teeth gnashing on Zbo and Hill, the young guys are developing...from WCS to Fox...Jackson is coming around and Hield looks tobe a weapon as a 6th man...Bogi looks to be an important piece. Vlade and company cut the cord on Hill and created cap space for next year.

The last 2 drafts are going as planned if you look at it as volume drafts increasing our chances to land rotation players and maybe 1 (Fox) or 2 (Giles) high level performing young guys.....and there is an early lotto pick coming.

Maybe every move hasn't been perfect, hard to do that in an inexact science, but clearly the path is there for success.

 

[andjel]

I like this simply because the team cannot continue to change directions at every whim. Vlade has made mistakes but there appears to be direction and a vision going forward. At the end of next year if the team is floundering then it should be brought up in conversation (his deadline). Floundering is not simply not making the playoffs. I would hope that one plan would be given the time to succeed.

I am definitely not for firing Vlade now, but should be acknowledged that over his less than 3 years tenure he had 2 completely opposite visions, build a winner now and a full rebuild.
His first vision was either wrong vision or wrong execution, but his failure either way.

Since he was not fired last January, there is no reason to fire him now when he is given mandate to execute on his second vision.
I have no complaints on his execution of that second vision since AFTER the January trade (even trade 2016 was quite good for it).

 

[steelevt]

OK who would you have drafted at #13 in 2016? It has to be someone taken after #12 in the first round and you can't pick DeJounte Murray!

I think Vlade did a great job in the 2016 and 2017 drafts. Would trading for Bogie even have occurred to most of us? Getting Bogie with the #8 pick and adding Skal was great in 2016. The beauty of what Vlade did in these drafts is he spread out the risk by trading for more picks.

Firing Vlade or Joerger at this point would set the Kings back 3 to 5 years. What were those of you calling for this expecting?

I repeat what were those of you calling for this expecting?

There were no MJ's available at #13 in 2016 people

there were no MJ's at 13 but there were players that are at least still in the league. I personally would have liked denzel valentine, wade baldwin, or luwawu. I believe the reason people didnt like pappagianis at 13 were 1) no one really heard of him or had him in the early or mid first round, and 2) we didnt need another big man at the time. I caught up late to the thread so i dont know if who you originally were questioning did expect a great player at 13 but most of us wanted a good player or at minimum a player that would still be in the league, which pappagiannis is neither of.

 

[jcassio]

I would be just the line cook making your expensive meal for peanuts an hour. Thus is life!

Hey - are you the Kobe killer?!!

 

[King Baller]

there were no MJ's at 13 but there were players that are at least still in the league. I personally would have liked denzel valentine, wade baldwin, or luwawu. I believe the reason people didnt like pappagianis at 13 were 1) no one really heard of him or had him in the early or mid first round, and 2) we didnt need another big man at the time. I caught up late to the thread so i dont know if who you originally were questioning did expect a great player at 13 but most of us wanted a good player or at minimum a player that would still be in the league, which pappagiannis is neither of.

If Vlade kept the #8 pick would you have been happy with a player like Bogdan Bogdanovic?

 

[The_Jamal]

there were no MJ's at 13 but there were players that are at least still in the league. I personally would have liked denzel valentine, wade baldwin, or luwawu. I believe the reason people didnt like pappagianis at 13 were 1) no one really heard of him or had him in the early or mid first round, and 2) we didnt need another big man at the time. I caught up late to the thread so i dont know if who you originally were questioning did expect a great player at 13 but most of us wanted a good player or at minimum a player that would still be in the league, which pappagiannis is neither of.

Not worth trying to reason with the other side of this argument anymore. Apparently, because we got a couple good players in the trade-down, wasting the #13th overall pick and the #22 pick is just fine.

 

[pshn80]

What happened this week was Vlade waving Papa. Since many on here ddn’t like the pick in the first place, they must be quite pleased with Vlade’s move to wave him. Our GM is on the ball.

 

[whozit]

I am definitely not for firing Vlade now, but should be acknowledged that over his less than 3 years tenure he had 2 completely opposite visions, build a winner now and a full rebuild.
His first vision was either wrong vision or wrong execution, but his failure either way.

Since he was not fired last January, there is no reason to fire him now when he is given mandate to execute on his second vision.
I have no complaints on his execution of that second vision since AFTER the January trade (even trade 2016 was quite good for it).

I think I acknowledged the "first vision" earlier. He thought he could do the quick fix and then couldn't (or didn't). How much of the change was from him and how much was from Vivek I don't know. That failure is on him since he was/is the GM. It appears he has learned some lessons going forward and that is what I am concerned about. It appears that Vivek has learned some lessons also.

 

[Joshoua]

If Vlade kept the #8 pick would you have been happy with a player like Bogdan Bogdanovic?

We wouldn’t have Bogdan

 

[Capt. Factorial]

We wouldn’t have Bogdan

That's not what was meant.

What was meant was this: Imagine hypothetically that available at the #8 pick in the 2016 draft was a player named Stephen Stephenson. The hypothetical Stephenson is a 6'4" shooting guard, the same age as Bogdanovic, and has an identical game and puts up identical stats to Bogdanovic. If, instead of making the Chriss trade, we had simply selected the hypothetical Stephen Stephenson at #8, would that have been an acceptable outcome for the draft?

 

[KingsFan5]

What happened this week was Vlade waving Papa. Since many on here ddn’t like the pick in the first place, they must be quite pleased with Vlade’s move to wave him. Our GM is on the ball.

No because he wasted a pick on his own decision

 

[mac]

Not worth trying to reason with the other side of this argument anymore. Apparently, because we got a couple good players in the trade-down, wasting the #13th overall pick and the #22 pick is just fine.

Seems like there are two issues. If your issue is that we cut them too soon, I can understand but I would counter asking how you think we'd find time for both of them. If your issue is that we drafted the wrong guys, I'd ask whether you should still call it wasting a pick if the rest of the league drafted just as poorly. If the pool of oranges are sour to begin with, you can't criticize someone for picking sour oranges. I was never a fan of Papa pick and I remember laughing my butt off at his 15s backdown no look hook shot that missed everything against Vlade's claims that he would be an all star. But I'm ok with cutting them if they had no place in the foreseeable future. It's impossible to develop 10 young guys simultaneously, ultimately only some will stick.

 

[KingsFan5]

If Vlade kept the #8 pick would you have been happy with a player like Bogdan Bogdanovic?

Bogdan at age 19? sure

 

[hrdboild]

What happened this week was Vlade waving Papa. Since many on here ddn’t like the pick in the first place, they must be quite pleased with Vlade’s move to wave him. Our GM is on the ball.

Or... it means drafting him in the first place is now twice as confusing. Most of us watched that draft wondering what Vlade was trying to do. First he turned one pick into the draft rights to Bogdanovic and 2 lower picks. In theory I was fine with that considering there were no slam dunk picks available at #8 anyway. I was actually kindof excited that we had the extra picks -- especially since I wanted Belinelli gone anyway and getting a #22 pick for him after that black hole of a season he just completed felt like highway robbery. But then the actual picks were made... Georgios Papagiannis and Malachi Richardson? With 3 guys who were on my short list for #8 (Dejounte Murray, Skal Labissiere, and Timothe Luwawu) still on the board I couldn't wrap my head around those picks. We ended up getting Skal anyway at #28 which rescued what was shaping up to be a pretty disappointing draft but I just had to hope that Vlade and his staff knew something I didn't know.

That's not revisionist history, it's all in the draft day thread from 2016. Evidently they did know something I didn't know about Bogdan Bogdanovic and he was the key piece here but the Papagiannis and Richardson picks are now confirmed to be wasted picks. Individually that's a pretty small thing -- we still got Skal and Bogdan right? But looking at the big picture -- first round picks are valuable assets that get traded every year for quality players. Getting literally nothing for two of them is a miss in the same way that trading an unprotected first round pick for cap space is a miss or failing to get a second first round pick for an All-NBA big man in his prime is a miss. It's part of a trend whereby Vlade has repeatedly taken assets and sold them off at below market value. It's only disappointing in the aggregate. None of these is a mistake per say. It's only hindsight that allows us to make that judgment. But you could say at the time that the returns on these trades didn't align with typical deals for the same level of asset. If you're going to be bold and challenge conventional wisdom than any eventual failures that result are going to be twice as noticeable.

We've also seen a draft strategy start to take shape as Vlade has traded down with a mid-late lotto pick now in 2 consecutive drafts. In 2016 he traded the #8 for the draft rights to Bogdan, the #13 pick, and the #28 pick. In 2017 he traded the #10 pick for the #15 pick and the #20 pick. The strategy appears to be quantity over quality. This is a bit of an unconventional strategy. Most teams with multiple picks try to package them to move up in the draft. There are also teams that target specific players and buy picks or trade down to get them (ie Geoff Petrie trading down to take Jimmer and San Antonio buying the 15th pick to take Kawhi Leonard in 2011). I can think of one similar case: Philly famously did the same thing under Sam Hinkie with similarly mixed results. They basically had to dump Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor for very little in return because they had blocked them with other players. They did manage to get a high draft pick in return for MCW though which they eventually used to trade up and draft Markelle Fultz last year. Stock-piling a bunch of young players does inevitably lead you into a roster crunch though and that means casting young players aside without really knowing who they will turn out to be. (See also: Isaiah Thomas, Wesley Matthews, Hassan Whiteside).

I know that nobody is actually going to read this at this point... but to sum things up on a (slightly) more hopeful note: I don't think Vlade is a terrible GM. But it's rather hard to say how good he is considering he's been on the job 3 years now and has hit the reset button every year. I'm worried that he's blowing through assets rather quickly to facilitate these big moves he's making every year and by the time we realize that he's a bad GM (or just a mediocre one) we'll be 4 or 5 more years into this rebuild and looking at starting over again. I'm getting old dammit! I was still in college the last time this team played a playoff game. I don't want to see the can kicked down the road anymore and all the consequent excuses. I want someone with a legitimate vision to wrangle this thing by the horns and make it happen.

 

[King Baller]

Bogdan at age 19? sure

Why would Bogdan at 19 be a better situation?

 

[KingsFan5]

Why would Bogdan at 19 be a better situation?

Youth..would you rather Fox be 19 or 25 when we took him 5th? By the time this "rebuild" is complete Bogdan will be 27 or 28. 30 is old in NBA years

 

[King Baller]

Some draft picks don't work out. Vlade decided to cut loose ONE THIRD of the assets from the 2016 #8 pick to seek his fortune elsewhere since Coach Joerger and Crew did not like his upside on THIS team. Fortunately from that draft Bogdan is working out great and Skal shows some promise.

 

[King Baller]

Youth..would you rather Fox be 19 or 25 when we took him 5th? By the time this "rebuild" is complete Bogdan will be 27 or 28. 30 is old in NBA years

I'm glad Bogdan is the way he is and the age he is. Bogdan has been playing in the kinder gentler Euro leagues

 

[King Baller]

Or... it means drafting him in the first place is now twice as confusing. Most of us watched that draft wondering what Vlade was trying to do. First he turned one pick into the draft rights to Bogdanovic and 2 lower picks. In theory I was fine with that considering there were no slam dunk picks available at #8 anyway. I was actually kindof excited that we had the extra picks -- especially since I wanted Belinelli gone anyway and getting a #22 pick for him after that black hole of a season he just completed felt like highway robbery. But then the actual picks were made... Georgios Papagiannis and Malachi Richardson? With 3 guys who were on my short list for #8 (Dejounte Murray, Skal Labissiere, and Timothe Luwawu) still on the board I couldn't wrap my head around those picks. We ended up getting Skal anyway at #28 which rescued what was shaping up to be a pretty disappointing draft but I just had to hope that Vlade and his staff knew something I didn't know.

That's not revisionist history, it's all in the draft day thread from 2016. Evidently they did know something I didn't know about Bogdan Bogdanovic and he was the key piece here but the Papagiannis and Richardson picks are now confirmed to be wasted picks. Individually that's a pretty small thing -- we still got Skal and Bogdan right? But looking at the big picture -- first round picks are valuable assets that get traded every year for quality players. Getting literally nothing for two of them is a miss in the same way that trading an unprotected first round pick for cap space is a miss or failing to get a second first round pick for an All-NBA big man in his prime is a miss. It's part of a trend whereby Vlade has repeatedly taken assets and sold them off at below market value. It's only disappointing in the aggregate. None of these is a mistake per say. It's only hindsight that allows us to make that judgment. But you could say at the time that the returns on these trades didn't align with typical deals for the same level of asset. If you're going to be bold and challenge conventional wisdom than any eventual failures that result are going to be twice as noticeable.

We've also seen a draft strategy start to take shape as Vlade has traded down with a mid-late lotto pick now in 2 consecutive drafts. In 2016 he traded the #8 for the draft rights to Bogdan, the #13 pick, and the #28 pick. In 2017 he traded the #10 pick for the #15 pick and the #20 pick. The strategy appears to be quantity over quality. This is a bit of an unconventional strategy. Most teams with multiple picks try to package them to move up in the draft. There are also teams that target specific players and buy picks or trade down to get them (ie Geoff Petrie trading down to take Jimmer and San Antonio buying the 15th pick to take Kawhi Leonard in 2011). I can think of one similar case: Philly famously did the same thing under Sam Hinkie with similarly mixed results. They basically had to dump Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor for very little in return because they had blocked them with other players. They did manage to get a high draft pick in return for MCW though which they eventually used to trade up and draft Markelle Fultz last year. Stock-piling a bunch of young players does inevitably lead you into a roster crunch though and that means casting young players aside without really knowing who they will turn out to be. (See also: Isaiah Thomas, Wesley Matthews, Hassan Whiteside).

I know that nobody is actually going to read this at this point... but to sum things up on a (slightly) more hopeful note: I don't think Vlade is a terrible GM. But it's rather hard to say how good he is considering he's been on the job 3 years now and has hit the reset button every year. I'm worried that he's blowing through assets rather quickly to facilitate these big moves he's making every year and by the time we realize that he's a bad GM (or just a mediocre one) we'll be 4 or 5 more years into this rebuild and looking at starting over again. I'm getting old dammit! I was still in college the last time this team played a playoff game. I don't want to see the can kicked down the road anymore and all the consequent excuses. I want someone with a legitimate vision to wrangle this thing by the horns and make it happen.

I don't think Murray or Luwawu would see many minutes on the Kings.

 

[burekijogurt]

Youth..would you rather Fox be 19 or 25 when we took him 5th? By the time this "rebuild" is complete Bogdan will be 27 or 28. 30 is old in NBA years

Obviously younger is better but 30 is not THAT bad. Ginobily had his best season in the league when he was 30. Steph Curry will be 30 in a month, and KD in 7 months, and they are fine. CP3 is 32. (talking about ages here of course, not overall skill)

 

[Telemachus]

Youth..would you rather Fox be 19 or 25 when we took him 5th? By the time this "rebuild" is complete Bogdan will be 27 or 28. 30 is old in NBA years

Sorry, but 30 isn't old for an NBA player. That is his prime. Now some start wearing down earlier than they used to, but thatis because they enter the league earlier. Games played is a much better barometer.

 

[burekijogurt]

Or... it means drafting him in the first place is now twice as confusing. Most of us watched that draft wondering what Vlade was trying to do. First he turned one pick into the draft rights to Bogdanovic and 2 lower picks. In theory I was fine with that considering there were no slam dunk picks available at #8 anyway. I was actually kindof excited that we had the extra picks -- especially since I wanted Belinelli gone anyway and getting a #22 pick for him after that black hole of a season he just completed felt like highway robbery. But then the actual picks were made... Georgios Papagiannis and Malachi Richardson? With 3 guys who were on my short list for #8 (Dejounte Murray, Skal Labissiere, and Timothe Luwawu) still on the board I couldn't wrap my head around those picks. We ended up getting Skal anyway at #28 which rescued what was shaping up to be a pretty disappointing draft but I just had to hope that Vlade and his staff knew something I didn't know.

That's not revisionist history, it's all in the draft day thread from 2016. Evidently they did know something I didn't know about Bogdan Bogdanovic and he was the key piece here but the Papagiannis and Richardson picks are now confirmed to be wasted picks. Individually that's a pretty small thing -- we still got Skal and Bogdan right? But looking at the big picture -- first round picks are valuable assets that get traded every year for quality players. Getting literally nothing for two of them is a miss in the same way that trading an unprotected first round pick for cap space is a miss or failing to get a second first round pick for an All-NBA big man in his prime is a miss. It's part of a trend whereby Vlade has repeatedly taken assets and sold them off at below market value. It's only disappointing in the aggregate. None of these is a mistake per say. It's only hindsight that allows us to make that judgment. But you could say at the time that the returns on these trades didn't align with typical deals for the same level of asset. If you're going to be bold and challenge conventional wisdom than any eventual failures that result are going to be twice as noticeable.

We've also seen a draft strategy start to take shape as Vlade has traded down with a mid-late lotto pick now in 2 consecutive drafts. In 2016 he traded the #8 for the draft rights to Bogdan, the #13 pick, and the #28 pick. In 2017 he traded the #10 pick for the #15 pick and the #20 pick. The strategy appears to be quantity over quality. This is a bit of an unconventional strategy. Most teams with multiple picks try to package them to move up in the draft. There are also teams that target specific players and buy picks or trade down to get them (ie Geoff Petrie trading down to take Jimmer and San Antonio buying the 15th pick to take Kawhi Leonard in 2011). I can think of one similar case: Philly famously did the same thing under Sam Hinkie with similarly mixed results. They basically had to dump Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor for very little in return because they had blocked them with other players. They did manage to get a high draft pick in return for MCW though which they eventually used to trade up and draft Markelle Fultz last year. Stock-piling a bunch of young players does inevitably lead you into a roster crunch though and that means casting young players aside without really knowing who they will turn out to be. (See also: Isaiah Thomas, Wesley Matthews, Hassan Whiteside).

I know that nobody is actually going to read this at this point... but to sum things up on a (slightly) more hopeful note: I don't think Vlade is a terrible GM. But it's rather hard to say how good he is considering he's been on the job 3 years now and has hit the reset button every year. I'm worried that he's blowing through assets rather quickly to facilitate these big moves he's making every year and by the time we realize that he's a bad GM (or just a mediocre one) we'll be 4 or 5 more years into this rebuild and looking at starting over again. I'm getting old dammit! I was still in college the last time this team played a playoff game. I don't want to see the can kicked down the road anymore and all the consequent excuses. I want someone with a legitimate vision to wrangle this thing by the horns and make it happen.

Malachi might not be a wasted pick. We got Cabocalo for him and he might turn into something..i know its a long shot but you never know. Papa, yes, at this point its a wasted pick.

 

[hrdboild]

I don't think Murray or Luwawu would see many minutes on the Kings.

At the time of the 2016 draft we didn't have Hield, Bogdanovich, Temple, Fox, or Mason yet. Obviously a lot has changed since then. I was just trying to express the way I felt about the draft at the time not with the benefit of hindsight. It's still too early to know how good any of these players will be anyway. Which is why this isn't about Papagiannis and Richardson specifically, it's just about the value of the picks they represented.