Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)

[andjel]

It's certainly not a fair assessment. Fultz has been out the entire year. Embed has not played in 9 games. Sorry, but once all 3(Simmons, Fultz, and Embiid) are healthy(If) they are exponentially better than the Kings are right now. Those are 3 players that have All Star Potential. Kings have None that I see.

It is not matter of fairness, it is the fact of where they are right now.
Btw, I agree that at least Simmons and Embiid are showing right now more than any of Kings players and would not trade them 1:1 if I was Philly.

Once we start "if" game, things are not as clear since we have our "if" game to play and then it really depends on very wide range of evaluations what will work and what not.

Going for all or nothing with a single draft at the expense of developing existing players (tank) is not my idea of well thought out plan.

 

[VF21]

This thread is looking at the big picture course of the franchise over 4-5 years ... so why are all other gripes about the team being directed and later probably cut and pasted over to here?

Do you honestly think that instruction is on point and furthers a debate (that you aren't enjoying)?

Or are you tired of reading gripes in the game and post game threads and would rather funnel them into one big gripe junk drawer?

Feels like the latter. You've been a great mod during this especially frustrating past 10 months and allowed a big tent and varied content. But, this seems frustration is causing a brief lapse into classic Kingsfans.com not all viewpoints are welcome territory.

Nothing has been cut and pasted. I see a lot of comments you guys don't see. And the one I see most often is the negative comments in the GAME threads that drown out those of us who are just trying to enjoy the game and "share" it with our fellow fans.

Notice I said GAME THREAD. I didn't say anything about the post-game threads (or I don't think I did - it gets blurry after a while). Look back in the old game threads. They weren't full of negativity. They were more like sitting next to your friends in our cyber arena and cheering. That's what people say they miss and I don't blame them. It's not too much to ask for people to refrain from derailing that one thread with talk about how much Joerger sucks or how we're wasting money on Z-Bo or whatever.

Debate stuff all you like. Create new threads to debate anything you like. Just let the game thread be the game thread. Is it really that difficult to understand?

 

[andjel]

This statement is not factually correct. It's been done many times over the past 30 years, often to good results.

You set up your roster to be limited heading into the season and how you manage minutes game to game. The players play to win, the deck is just stacked to prevent that from happening.

The way this roster was set up WAS the way of setting it up to fail. It just happen to be overachieving, heavily.

I am open for being educated about teams that on purpose trotted out rosters that are worse than Kings roster today where they held some better players on the injury list.

 

[andjel]

Let’s kindly leave Philadelphia out of this Id gladly go 0-83 for a chance at one of Embiid and


Embiid is top 5 player material and Simmons is a superstar I think you’re underselling them

Nice you like Embiid that much. He is a very good player.
Potential wise, he is right there with Oden.

 

[The_Jamal]

As far as a blue print for what the Kings are doing on their rebuild, we should look at the current Champions, GSW.

They never did a years long tank job. They remained competitive during their rebuilding years (look at David Lee and Monte Ellis years). They built their dynasty, while trying to still win and be competitive. The GSW wasn't trying to instill tanking and losing on their young players, they always remained competitive.

In fact, their highest draft pick in the last 12 years was #6 on Ekpe Udoh! The rest of their picks were in the #7-14 range during their rebuilding years.

Of course you have to have a really good talent evaluator, but GSW model proves that you don't need to tank year in and year out to get a top 1 or 2 pick every year to become a championship caliber team!

This is all fine and dandy, but guess what... when it came time to it, they turned their team over to the young guys and let them fly. Warriors fans were livid about the Monta trade, but that sparked whats turning out to be a HoF career in Steph Curry. David Lee was insanely productive for them, but they moved on once they realized Draymond Green brought their team to another level.

Once the Warriors put all their eggs in Steph/Klay/Barnes/Klay/Dray basket (trading Monta etc), the rest is history with how they responded. They didn't let middling vets (Monta) or even good vets (David Lee) keep them from putting their best possible team on the court.

Now it may turn out that none of our young guys are worth all that much and its next to impossible they amount to anything close to that Warriors core. But why not find out? Especially when there's literally 0 upside for us as a franchise with the ZBO/Hill lead offense.

 

[dude12]

This is all fine and dandy, but guess what... when it came time to it, they turned their team over to the young guys and let them fly. Warriors fans were livid about the Monta trade, but that sparked whats turning out to be a HoF career in Steph Curry. David Lee was insanely productive for them, but they moved on once they realized Draymond Green brought their team to another level.

Once the Warriors put all their eggs in Steph/Klay/Barnes/Klay/Dray basket (trading Monta etc), the rest is history with how they responded. They didn't let middling vets (Monta) or even good vets (David Lee) keep them from putting their best possible team on the court.

Now it may turn out that none of our young guys are worth all that much and its next to impossible they amount to anything close to that Warriors core. But why not find out? Especially when there's literally 0 upside for us as a franchise with the ZBO/Hill lead offense.

Because they aren't ready to turn it over to them yet? Because the first and second year guys aren't there yet?

 

[KingsSelecao]

The sad part is a lot of the young guys are questionable picks and I don't see any Star power anywhere. Justin Jackson looks nowhere near ready to play at the NBA level. Soft and Skittish. Very limited ceiling. Giles is a Big Question Mark. Skal's work ethic was constantly questioned at Kentucky and disappeared in all big games. Richardson has shown little to nothing. Fox looks like Efrid Payton's long lost cousin. Mason has potential to be a nice spark off the bench. Papi is thinner and has improved his game, but he will never be dominant. Bogdan and Hield are both above average Sg's, but one is 25 and the other 26. I don't think their ceiling goes much higher.

Our best players are all vets: Randolph, Hill, Temple, and Koufas.

 

[sactowndog]

Because they aren't ready to turn it over to them yet? Because the first and second year guys aren't there yet?

Right but that tells you something about the quality of the 2nd year players we have. None of them are close to making an impact except maybe Buddy. That would indicate we need better players.

Let’s be honest... part of the problem is we have 4 players from probably the worst drafts (2016) in NBA history.

 

[ockingsfan]

This is all fine and dandy, but guess what... when it came time to it, they turned their team over to the young guys and let them fly. Warriors fans were livid about the Monta trade, but that sparked whats turning out to be a HoF career in Steph Curry. David Lee was insanely productive for them, but they moved on once they realized Draymond Green brought their team to another level.

Once the Warriors put all their eggs in Steph/Klay/Barnes/Klay/Dray basket (trading Monta etc), the rest is history with how they responded. They didn't let middling vets (Monta) or even good vets (David Lee) keep them from putting their best possible team on the court.

Now it may turn out that none of our young guys are worth all that much and its next to impossible they amount to anything close to that Warriors core. But why not find out? Especially when there's literally 0 upside for us as a franchise with the ZBO/Hill lead offense.

Exactly, when Curry, Thompson and Green were ready to fly on their own and flourish, the GSW traded the vets. The Kings young players are not that level, they are obviously not ready to "fly" by themselves.

Once Fox, Buddy, Giles, Skal and the rest of the young guys are ready to "fly" and take over major minutes, I'm sure the current vets will be traded or their contracts expired.

But, as we stand now, taking away veteran leadership while the Kids aren't ready to fly is just clipping their wings before they are ready to spread.

People need to be patient and allow these kids to grow and fill out their own bodies and learn the game, before you just throw them to the wolves, with no vet help.

If by the February trade deadline or this summer the Kids start showing some consistent performances, I would not be surprised if Vlade started trading some of those vets to clear more playing time for the young guys. But, as of today, the Kids are not ready to "fly" the coup yet.

 

[ockingsfan]

Serious question for all the "Tank At All Cost" crowd.

How many teams went on years and years of tanking and successfully became a championship team?

With the exception of San Antonio, which wasn't really a tank, but more an already bad team and then an injury to David Robinson, I can't really remember any team that did a years and years long tank and won a championship. Also, Cleveland never won a championship with the tanking they did the first time around to get LeBron.

What model of tanking and winning would we be following to success?

 

[Telemachus]

This is all fine and dandy, but guess what... when it came time to it, they turned their team over to the young guys and let them fly. Warriors fans were livid about the Monta trade, but that sparked whats turning out to be a HoF career in Steph Curry. David Lee was insanely productive for them, but they moved on once they realized Draymond Green brought their team to another level.

Once the Warriors put all their eggs in Steph/Klay/Barnes/Klay/Dray basket (trading Monta etc), the rest is history with how they responded. They didn't let middling vets (Monta) or even good vets (David Lee) keep them from putting their best possible team on the court.

Now it may turn out that none of our young guys are worth all that much and its next to impossible they amount to anything close to that Warriors core. But why not find out? Especially when there's literally 0 upside for us as a franchise with the ZBO/Hill lead offense.

Yet Klay Thompson averaged 24.4 mins his rookie season (getting many of those in the 2nd half of the season at 32 mins). Draymond Green averaged 13.4 mins his rookie season and 21.9 his 2nd year.

 

[kingsboi]

Serious question for all the "Tank At All Cost" crowd.

How many teams went on years and years of tanking and successfully became a championship team?

With the exception of San Antonio, which wasn't really a tank, but more an already bad team and then an injury to David Robinson, I can't really remember any team that did a years and years long tank and won a championship. Also, Cleveland never won a championship with the tanking they did the first time around to get LeBron.

What model of tanking and winning would we be following to success?

If Cleveland didn't tank post LeBron, they would of never had Irving, and also wouldn't of had Wiggins as a trade chip for Love, which would result in no championship for Cleveland.

Teams tank in order to give themselves a chance to land a star player, which is what you need to give yourself a chance to win a title. It won't always happen the way you want it and expect it to but a lot of luck is involved as well as strategic team building.

 

[ockingsfan]

If Cleveland didn't tank post LeBron, they would of never had Irving, and also wouldn't of had Wiggins as a trade chip for Love, which would result in no championship for Cleveland.

Teams tank in order to give themselves a chance to land a star player, which is what you need to give yourself a chance to win a title. It won't always happen the way you want it and expect it to but a lot of luck is involved as well as strategic team building.

Cleveland didn't tank for Kyrie, they got that pick from the Clippers.

Also, Cleveland didn't really tank after LeBron left, they were just plain bad post LeBron.

Also, they got lucky with the Lottery. The Cavs had 33 wins (#9 pre-lotto) the year they won the lottery for Wiggins, that's not tanking.

 

[Larry David]

Serious question for all the "Tank At All Cost" crowd.

How many teams went on years and years of tanking and successfully became a championship team?

With the exception of San Antonio, which wasn't really a tank, but more an already bad team and then an injury to David Robinson, I can't really remember any team that did a years and years long tank and won a championship. Also, Cleveland never won a championship with the tanking they did the first time around to get LeBron.

What model of tanking and winning would we be following to success?

Championship is the bar for you? I have more wiggle room than 20 year dumpster fire and title or bust, but hey that’s me. Id settle for winning a playoff series as the higher seed 2 out of 3 years.

Since that almost never happens in this town, I’d be cool with that. Teams bottom out and do that all the time.

 

[KingsSelecao]

Chicago was really bad for 3 years before Jordan. It really comes down to years and years of poor talent evaluation and bad luck with certain picks the Kings have had through the years. I mean the list goes on and on: Since 2010, the Kings have absolutely nothing to account for in the draft. Cousins is and All Star and gone, IT is an All Star In Cleveland. Fox is an unknown and WCS is getting ready for a Cheech and Chong reunion.

 

[ockingsfan]

Championship is the bar for you? I have more wiggle room than 20 year dumpster fire and title or bust, but hey that’s me. Id settle for winning a playoff series as the higher seed 2 out of 3 years.

Since that almost never happens in this town, I’d be cool with that. Teams bottom out and do that all the time.

OK, so playoffs are good for you, well then, there is probably about 12-14 teams in the playoffs every year that never did a complete tank job to get to be good enough to make the playoffs.

If making the playoffs are your objective, which is fine, I see nothing wrong with the current trajectory of the teams rebuild.

 

[206Fan]

Serious question for all the "Tank At All Cost" crowd.

How many teams went on years and years of tanking and successfully became a championship team?

With the exception of San Antonio, which wasn't really a tank, but more an already bad team and then an injury to David Robinson, I can't really remember any team that did a years and years long tank and won a championship. Also, Cleveland never won a championship with the tanking they did the first time around to get LeBron.

What model of tanking and winning would we be following to success?

The winning teams have all had a superstar on their team. Right now, the Kings don't look like they have one. So our goal should be to put ourselves in the best position possible to find a young superstar. The only way to do that is through the draft. Yeah you can find a superstar at #7, but statistically, it extremely rare to do so. You already know this from looking at all the recent busts the Kings have drafted. Statistically, you also have a better shot at landing a star player the higher you pick in the draft.

The Kings might have a hidden superstar on the roster, but we will never know unless Joerger actually decides to play the youth over vets. Most superstars show that they are superstars year 1. Yes I know, not all guys develop at the same pace, but even yourself would have to agree that there's a good chance the Kings don't have one on this team.

Giving playing time to young players is not "tanking". You get a chance to see what you have in the young guys. You can develop them with NBA PT along the way as well. With this, you also increase your lotto chances. Is there a lot of merit in watching 36yearold ZBo and 31yearold George Hill carry a rebuilding team to wins? Yes these guys might be 1st or 2nd year players, but they don't need to be coddled. I'm sure they can pick up a basketball just the same way ZBo can.

I don't think a lot of people are cheering for the team to "tank". People would just rather watch our young guys in action even if they are pitiful. This is what rebuilding teams do. Let me go to the 2015-16 Timberwolves:

20yearold Wiggins: 35mins
20yearold KAT: 32mins
20yearold LaVine: 28mins
23yearold Shabazz: 20mins
25yearold Rubio: 30mins
26yearold Dieng: 27mins

In the last 30 years, only 10 different teams have won a championship. What do they all have in common except for the 04Pistons? A superstar.

 

[ESP47]

As far as a blue print for what the Kings are doing on their rebuild, we should look at the current Champions, GSW.

They never did a years long tank job. They remained competitive during their rebuilding years (look at David Lee and Monte Ellis years). They built their dynasty, while trying to still win and be competitive. The GSW wasn't trying to instill tanking and losing on their young players, they always remained competitive.

In fact, their highest draft pick in the last 12 years was #6 on Ekpe Udoh! The rest of their picks were in the #7-14 range during their rebuilding years.

Of course you have to have a really good talent evaluator, but GSW model proves that you don't need to tank year in and year out to get a top 1 or 2 pick every year to become a championship caliber team!

You can't just emulate what the Warriors did. The Warriors got extremely lucky. Steph Curry turned out to be a HOF talent after having huge bust potential out of college. Klay landed right in their laps after we took Jimmer and became way better than anyone ever expected. Then they got Harrison Barnes and Draymond Green in the same draft! Draymond Green has a skill set that no other player out there has. He can cover all 5 positions at an elite level, as well as shoot and distribute the ball at an elite level for a PF. He's also a team leader. He is truly a one of a kind player.

Steph is 4th and Klay is 11th in 3 point percentage. They are 1 and 2 in 3 point shots attempted per game. They are the two best 3 point shooters of all time at this point. Throw in a one of a kind player in Draymond and this is an extremely rare combination and the reason why they're going to win a bunch of championships. How could you ever emulate that? If you try, you're going to fail because all time greats do not grow on trees.

Take the best route to becoming better by drafting high, where it is absolutely proven that you have a higher chance of landing a star and go to work from there. The Kings have been picking in the same vicinity of the Warriors through their entire rebuild and they are an all time great team and we are an all time worst franchise. Don't you think it would be smart to stop doing the same old thing that doesn't work and finally change it up for once? No one here is saying that you can't build a franchise with lower end lottery picks but you can't argue with the irrefutable fact that drafting in the top 3 raises your chances of landing a star by a ton.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Cleveland didn't tank for Kyrie, they got that pick from the Clippers.

Also, Cleveland didn't really tank after LeBron left, they were just plain bad post LeBron.

Also, they got lucky with the Lottery. The Cavs had 33 wins (#9 pre-lotto) the year they won the lottery for Wiggins, that's not tanking.

Yeah, Cleveland won the lottery the summer that Lebron planned to move back to Cleveland. It was a crazy.

One fairly major thing that seems to get lost is that, for the most part, the Kings are playing “good” basketball. This is a well coached team. Sometimes, we iso ZBo for a few sequences, but I tend to think that is when we are struggling to get good shots and need to stop a run. Anyway, for the most part the ball moves and the team is fun to watch. It sure seems to be a fun team to actually play with. I think the young guys are enjoying their basketball and the current process. None of the above was true of the Boogie years. I love Boogie, but we played bad basketball despite his supernova talent, and it sure seemed like our young guys hated being here.

The vets are here to establish good basketball and maintain team chemistry. A big problem with tanking teams is that young guys start chasing stats. You have a young PG who maybe cannot distribute all that well yet, so the forwards start jacking up shots everytime they touch it because they are tired of their best looks being when they grab an offensive rebound, the locker room starts to get fractured, etc. With our vets, we can always put a combination of players on the floor that can run their sets and get some good looks. And when things really, truly bog down then we go to ZBo, and none of these young guys are going to complain about ZBo forcing up a shot like they would if it was one of their peers. I trust Joerger and the front office.

Something else—both Vlade and Peja came up in the European system, where no matter how good a prospect is he still has to accomplish an apprenticeship behind the vets in order to earn playing time and earn shots. Others with more knowledge of European clubs can correct me if I am wrong, but that seems like the team dynamic we are trying to create.

 

[sactowndog]

Something else—both Vlade and Peja came up in the European system, where no matter how good a prospect is he still has to accomplish an apprenticeship behind the vets in order to earn playing time and earn shots. Others with more knowledge of European clubs can correct me if I am wrong, but that seems like the team dynamic we are trying to create.

And that makes a ton of sense if you are in a system where you sign local 15 year olds and develop them. Europe has a different system for acquiring player than we do.

 

[sactowndog]

Exactly, when Curry, Thompson and Green were ready to fly on their own and flourish, the GSW traded the vets. The Kings young players are not that level, they are obviously not ready to "fly" by themselves.

Once Fox, Buddy, Giles, Skal and the rest of the young guys are ready to "fly" and take over major minutes, I'm sure the current vets will be traded or their contracts expired.

But, as we stand now, taking away veteran leadership while the Kids aren't ready to fly is just clipping their wings before they are ready to spread.

People need to be patient and allow these kids to grow and fill out their own bodies and learn the game, before you just throw them to the wolves, with no vet help.

If by the February trade deadline or this summer the Kids start showing some consistent performances, I would not be surprised if Vlade started trading some of those vets to clear more playing time for the young guys. But, as of today, the Kids are not ready to "fly" the coup yet.

I think your analogy is perfect. Players are like chicks. If you aren’t ready to fly by the end of your first year chances are high you’re dead meat. Ever see a nest with this years and last years chicks in it clamoring for food?

 

[Kingster]

It's the same plan.

Young does not equal a foundational piece. Odds favor, the Kings have been 0 and 1 of those depending upon how good Fox is and whether the Kings botch his development. Since tank the 17-18 season was the obvious move, they had decent mathematical odds to add another this June and then none until 2020.

It is rinse repeat for the long term game plan. It's just the same. Sure, there are kids on the roster and fans can hope for them all to exceed their reasonable expectations, but it's the same plan. What's difference is the consequences for this year.

Normally, they screw this up like they always do and they get another shot to murder another pick with the same lottery odds each year. When they botch this season, it's one pick for two year and the lottery odds become much more random thereafter. Screwing up this season and the 2018 pick, might mean they are bad for a loooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggg time.

It's super dumb and the consequences are probably going to be harsh.

So on the one hand, we don't know how Fox is going to turn out and on the other the Kings have already screwed up the season? If Fox is a future star, then would they have screwed up the season? If Jackson is good and Giles is good would they screwed up the season? Is that part of the "rinse and repeat" scenario you are talking about? What are you talking about? The Kings want to accumulate talent. That's a plan. They want to draft very good talent. That's a plan. They want to get very good FAs here. That's a plan. It's all a plan. It's just a question of whether they can execute the plan. That's up for debate. We will see in the coming years.

And by the way, what does that first bolded sentence even mean?

 

[RichieInRocklin]

"So on the one hand, we don't know how Fox is going to turn out and on the other the Kings have already screwed up the season? If Fox is a future star, then would they have screwed up the season? If Jackson is good and Giles is good would they screwed up the season? Is that part of the "rinse and repeat" scenario you are talking about? What are you talking about? The Kings want to accumulate talent. That's a plan. They want to draft very good talent. That's a plan. They want to get very good FAs here. That's a plan. It's all a plan. It's just a question of whether they can execute the plan. That's up for debate. We will see in the coming years."


Well Said, Kingster.

Go Kings .........and Grow into Stars

 

[kingsboi]

Cleveland didn't tank for Kyrie, they got that pick from the Clippers.

Also, Cleveland didn't really tank after LeBron left, they were just plain bad post LeBron.

Also, they got lucky with the Lottery. The Cavs had 33 wins (#9 pre-lotto) the year they won the lottery for Wiggins, that's not tanking.

so they got lucky three times with the number one pick. That's not the point here. They didn't need to tank intentionally to get Irving, you said it yourself, they were bad post Bron anyway. The GM knew he had to find himself another star player after "The Decision" and as a GM, he fielded together a team that would fail and lose a lot. Mission accomplished.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

And that makes a ton of sense if you are in a system where you sign local 15 year olds and develop them. Europe has a different system for acquiring player than we do.

How many picks have we had the last 2 years? Have you heard the rumblings about CBA changes to allow high schoolers to come into the league again? We use the Bighorns like a Reserve team. Vlade and Peja are ahead of the curve on where the league is going. It’s time they credit for their vision.

 

[ockingsfan]

so they got lucky three times with the number one pick. That's not the point here. They didn't need to tank intentionally to get Irving, you said it yourself, they were bad post Bron anyway. The GM knew he had to find himself another star player after "The Decision" and as a GM, he fielded together a team that would fail and lose a lot. Mission accomplished.

Cleveland actually had a lot of the same players they had when LeBron was there, but without LeBron they sucked.

Cleveland didn't do a dumpster fire sale, they rode with a very similar veteran team that went to the championship the year prior to LeBron leaving, but they lost a lot more games after he left.

There was no intentional tanking, like what Philly did going on.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Seems there should be more polls to get a sense where the fanbase stands

 

[kingsfan1984]

What would you like to see the kings do?
To keep it more atraight forward, didnt include any options in regards to trades.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Seems there should be more polls to get a sense where the fanbase stands

What the world needs now is... more polls?

Uh, sure.

Anyway, the poll thread was merged with the preexisting "Rebuild" thread, because there didn't appear to be a good reason not to.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

It's certainly not a fair assessment. Fultz has been out the entire year. Embed has not played in 9 games. Sorry, but once all 3(Simmons, Fultz, and Embiid) are healthy(If) they are exponentially better than the Kings are right now. Those are 3 players that have All Star Potential. Kings have None that I see.

So a player that's only played 4 NBA games, while not doing much in those games, somehow has all star potential but the Kings #5 pick somehow doesn't?

I get that Fox hasn't shown a lot thus far, but he's shown more than Fultz considering he hasn't been able to play much at all. In summary, Fultz is every bit as unknown as Fox at this point in time.