Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)

[sactowndog]

Fans overrate WCS and Bogdan imo. Neither are that good, yet I already see people calling Bogdan one of our best players.

Most of the side defending Joerger are the guys who "root for wins no matter what". They don't care about the draft position because they don't think it applies to the Kings. I don't follow their logic at all. The Kings are a horrible team this year. What difference for those fans does it make if we win 23 games instead of 28? I'm 100% sure they'd forget which games were wins in this long 82 game season.

Another thing, I've seen loads of fans(not specifically here) comment about how the vets are here to teach them how to win the right way. There's no right way to win.There is no right or wrong way to win. Winning is winning. It's not like these players are kindergartners who don't know how to pick up a basketball. These guys are paid professional athletes at the highest level of basketball. They do not need to be taught how to win or how to play basketball sitting on a bench behind 30yearsolds who barely manage to wheel out wins themselves. Does anyone really want to talk about playing the right way? All I see down the stretch are Zach Randolph ISOs on the low-block.

So check me in as a confused fan.

I think Bogdan has a lot to like. He plays defense much better than I expected. He has a high basketball IQ. His shooting is off because he isn’t used to the speed of the NBA game but I expect it will improve as the game slows down.

Willie I think is good in the right type of system and I think complements Bogs well. I think it would be a mistake to trade either.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

It's this kind of insane thinking that has gotten the Kings were they are right now. The Kings have been a revolving door for players, coaches and GM's, and you want to continue down that road. I've been on this forum for a long time, and I've been arguing with this kind of thinking ever since I've gotten here, and while people who think this way come and go, there's always another one like you that shows up to continue the insanity. I will continue to be a Kings fan and root for the team. But I'm finally done here. I'm tired of the arguing the same argument over and over again. It's been fun while it lasted, and I may post from time to time in the prospects forum, but that's it folks. I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Baja, consider judicious use of the ignore button. I didn’t want to use the ignore because I want to have an open mind and be exposed to differing opinions, but I used it the other day on someone I considered “troll like” because of their excessive repetitive posts. I had also posted about the irritating context of their posts and got hammered by others that I wasn’t even talking about and they were quite opinionated and defensive so I went back and reviewed their previous posts and came to the conclusion that maybe I didn’t really have much common ground with them and maybe there were one or two others that I should consider putting on ignore, too.

This is “social” media, so we are socializing. In the real world we are discriminating in who we socialize with. We choose to limit our socializing with people we have strong differences of opinions with. Doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad people, just not the kind of people we have a lot in common with.

I don’t mind listening to people with different opinions as long as they don’t try to cram it down my throat. I don’t care to listen to close-minded, opinionated, dogmatic, defensive, people who constantly broadcast their opinion over and over as fact. I avoid people like that. I used to work with a guy like that, he was always wanting to argue religion and politics (two worst things to discuss). He would punctuate his arguments by poking you in the chest with his index finger and say “that’s my opinion, make it yours.” Unfortunately, I missed seeing him get his hard hat and safety glasses smacked off his head, but I sure heard about it.

There are people like that on here and there are also just complainers who have a pet peeve that they like to post repeatedly. I have come to the conclusion that if there are people that I never get any value from their posts, then I am just going to put them on ignore. And here is the cool thing about ignore, if you feel like you might be missing out on something occasionally, just logoff. You can then read posts of ignored people and if there is anything of value you can see it. That way you don’t have to go thru the process of taking them off ignore and then putting them back on. When you log back on and refresh, all their posts go away, just like magic

 

[sactowndog]

Probably not. I think Hield has an edge as a scorer on offense that can make him special. I actually think Bogdan is a more well-rounded basketball player, but Buddy could end up being a better player if that makes sense. Difference between Klay and say DeRozan.

Buddy is a more pure shooter than Bogdan but no where near the all around player. Buddy is a perfect catch and shoot 3 and D (currently sort of D) guy if you have players who can get him the ball.

 

[fansinceday1]

It's this kind of insane thinking that has gotten the Kings were they are right now. The Kings have been a revolving door for players, coaches and GM's, and you want to continue down that road. I've been on this forum for a long time, and I've been arguing with this kind of thinking ever since I've gotten here, and while people who think this way come and go, there's always another one like you that shows up to continue the insanity. I will continue to be a Kings fan and root for the team. But I'm finally done here. I'm tired of the arguing the same argument over and over again. It's been fun while it lasted, and I may post from time to time in the prospects forum, but that's it folks. I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

If anyone needs to learn how to win it's this fan base. We've been losers for so long it's just rotting everyone basketball minds.

 

[sactowndog]

Baja, consider judicious use of the ignore button. I didn’t want to use the ignore because I want to have an open mind and be exposed to differing opinions, but I used it the other day on someone I considered “troll like” because of their excessive repetitive posts. I had also posted about the irritating context of their posts and got hammered by others that I wasn’t even talking about and they were quite opinionated and defensive so I went back and reviewed their previous posts and came to the conclusion that maybe I didn’t really have much common ground with them and maybe there were one or two others that I should consider putting on ignore, too.

This is “social” media, so we are socializing. In the real world we are discriminating in who we socialize with. We choose to limit our socializing with people we have strong differences of opinions with. Doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad people, just not the kind of people we have a lot in common with.

I don’t mind listening to people with different opinions as long as they don’t try to cram it down my throat. I don’t care to listen to close-minded, opinionated, dogmatic, defensive, people who constantly broadcast their opinion over and over as fact. I avoid people like that. I used to work with a guy like that, he was always wanting to argue religion and politics (two worst things to discuss). He would punctuate his arguments by poking you in the chest with his index finger and say “that’s my opinion, make it yours.” Unfortunately, I missed seeing him get his hard hat and safety glasses smacked off his head, but I sure heard about it.

There are people like that on here and there are also just complainers who have a pet peeve that they like to post repeatedly. I have come to the conclusion that if there are people that I never get any value from their posts, then I am just going to put them on ignore. And here is the cool thing about ignore, if you feel like you might be missing out on something occasionally, just logoff. You can then read posts of ignored people and if there is anything of value you can see it. That way you don’t have to go thru the process of taking them off ignore and then putting them back on. When you log back on and refresh, all their posts go away, just like magic

Or just stay out of the rebuild thread. The thread was started to have this discussion without bugging people in other threads. You may not like people’s ideas but discussing the approach to rebuild is the point of this thread.

Personally, I’m excited by a starting 5 of Fox/Mason, Bogdan, Porter/Doncic, Giles, Willie with Buddy and Skal coming off the bench. It will be better if Fox learns to actually run the point and Giles is still a big question mark but that could be a darn good team and I want to see more of the existing players now.

 

[fansinceday1]

Baja, consider judicious use of the ignore button. I didn’t want to use the ignore because I want to have an open mind and be exposed to differing opinions, but I used it the other day on someone I considered “troll like” because of their excessive repetitive posts. I had also posted about the irritating context of their posts and got hammered by others that I wasn’t even talking about and they were quite opinionated and defensive so I went back and reviewed their previous posts and came to the conclusion that maybe I didn’t really have much common ground with them and maybe there were one or two others that I should consider putting on ignore, too.

This is “social” media, so we are socializing. In the real world we are discriminating in who we socialize with. We choose to limit our socializing with people we have strong differences of opinions with. Doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad people, just not the kind of people we have a lot in common with.

I don’t mind listening to people with different opinions as long as they don’t try to cram it down my throat. I don’t care to listen to close-minded, opinionated, dogmatic, defensive, people who constantly broadcast their opinion over and over as fact. I avoid people like that. I used to work with a guy like that, he was always wanting to argue religion and politics (two worst things to discuss). He would punctuate his arguments by poking you in the chest with his index finger and say “that’s my opinion, make it yours.” Unfortunately, I missed seeing him get his hard hat and safety glasses smacked off his head, but I sure heard about it.

There are people like that on here and there are also just complainers who have a pet peeve that they like to post repeatedly. I have come to the conclusion that if there are people that I never get any value from their posts, then I am just going to put them on ignore. And here is the cool thing about ignore, if you feel like you might be missing out on something occasionally, just logoff. You can then read posts of ignored people and if there is anything of value you can see it. That way you don’t have to go thru the process of taking them off ignore and then putting them back on. When you log back on and refresh, all their posts go away, just like magic

I get where baja is coming from. Years and years and years of going over the same thing. How to build a winner. It feels like we will be arguing about this for another 10 years. When one takes a step back to look at the big picture you begin to feel like "what's the point?".

 

[dude12]

Kings are not in position yet to make a big trade.....I think they need to continue to evaluate. Patience is needed.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

I get where baja is coming from. Years and years and years of going over the same thing. How to build a winner. It feels like we will be arguing about this for another 10 years. When one takes a step back you begin to feel like "what's the point?".

Well if we're still arguing about it in 10 years, the rebuild didn't work "My opinion" is we won't see much in the way of results until after the halfway point of next year and hopefully be competitive the following year. I know that's not soon enough for some, but these things don't happen overnight.

 

[gunks]

Good news, a lot of the other crap teams have been winning lately, even the lowly Bulls are on a 5 game streak.

So the hope of a top 5 pick is alive!

We just need to ship Z-bo out (doubt it though, he's doing exactly what our FO wants him to do, no matter how ill conceived it is). Really didn't expect him to go full Cuz this season with paint domination.

As far as trading WCS and Bogs for Parker, or going after Gasol? The hell y'all smoking!?! Jabari is extremely injury prone. No way you max him out. We already have a lot of hope's pinned on Giles' knees being rebuilt. Pass! Bogs is dope and WCS could be a good backup for a big who doesn't have their head up their *** 65% of the time (rough approximation), like he does.

 

[fansinceday1]

Good news, a lot of the other crap teams have been winning lately, even the lowly Bulls are on a 5 game streak.

So the hope of a top 5 pick is alive!

We just need to ship Z-bo out (doubt it though, he's doing exactly what our FO wants him to do, no matter how ill conceived it is). Really didn't expect him to go full Cuz this season with paint domination.

As far as trading WCS and Bogs for Parker, or going after Gasol? The hell y'all smoking!?! Jabari is extremely injury prone. No way you max him out. We already have a lot of hope's pinned on Giles' knees being rebuilt. Pass! Bogs is dope and WCS could be a good backup for a big who doesn't have their head up their *** 65% of the time (rough approximation), like he does.

I wonder how much trade interest there will be for an old zbo playing the way the way he's playing now. I wonder if vlade would actually consider trading him knowing that zbo is joegers favorite guy?

 

[Nokidding]

That's cart before the horse. I wouldn't give up as much as some are suggesting, but you are vastly overrated Bogdanovic. He is not the next Ginobili.

This 1000% I like Bogdanovic but even at age 40 you could argue Manu right now is a better player there stats are nearly identical with Manu playing less minutes with slightly lesser FG%. Bogie is not even close to Manu in terms of natural talent/creativity/athletic ability( right now Manu is a better athlete) it's another level or two or three.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Last thing on Gasol—I am not advocating mortgaging the future to get him, merely to submit a bid. We may end up being the winning bid. They are not going to send him somewhere he does not want to go due to his many years of loyal service, and the Kings might be an attractive option due to our many connections to the Grizzlies. Moreover, this is our one and only “tank” year. We should add a star vet at the deadline, if we can do it for a decent price. A deadline addition should not have an appreciable impact on the tank, will act as talent consolidation (free up minutes) and will be a big help going forward. That said, ideally, this type of trade would happen next summer.

 

[allrightythen]

Remember, assists don't count into their usage rating. So if Wall breaks down the defense and kicks the ball out to Beal and he makes a 3, that counts toward Beal's usage rating, not Wall's. During Wall's rookie year, he averaged 8 assists a game so while it looks like his usage rating is about the same as Fox's, in reality it's completely different because Wall was being used to run the offense from the get go. They let Wall go out and do his thing, which led to a ton of turnovers and poor shooting efficiency but it also let him rack up assists and points. Wizards fans got to see flashes from Wall all year long, something we don't even get the chance to see from our young guy because he's not allowed to go and do what he does best.



Exactly. ZBo isn't teaching them how to win because no one on the roster can do what ZBo does. These guys have all been winners from high school throughout college. Justin Jackson won an NCAA championship last year. They know what winning feels like. The vets should be helping them win games by elevating their play. Not by having them sit or stand around and watch. The vets are going to have to play, they can't just ride the bench while all the young guys play but the vets shouldn't be dominating the ball at the expense of the young guys.

It's very confusing. I'm sure Fox is confused too because Joerger is constantly yelling at him to run but there's no where to run to. The best analogy I

Remember, assists don't count into their usage rating. So if Wall breaks down the defense and kicks the ball out to Beal and he makes a 3, that counts toward Beal's usage rating, not Wall's. During Wall's rookie year, he averaged 8 assists a game so while it looks like his usage rating is about the same as Fox's, in reality it's completely different because Wall was being used to run the offense from the get go. They let Wall go out and do his thing, which led to a ton of turnovers and poor shooting efficiency but it also let him rack up assists and points. Wizards fans got to see flashes from Wall all year long, something we don't even get the chance to see from our young guy because he's not allowed to go and do what he does best.

I agree to a point. Wall was given more freedom and I would hope that Fox would get a little more. Fox is fighting multiple battles that Wall never had to. Fox has legit competition for minutes from other young players and the lineups have constantly changed. This probably isn't popular, but if Joerger plays the way you're asking he doesn't last through next season.

 

[Joshoua]

Parker is a lot more proven than Giles! Agreed! Obvious statement, but why bother? Parker has played in the NBA for a couple of years and Giles has yet to suit up for a game. Duh!! Parker is a lot more talented than Giles. Really, and how do you know that since we've never seen Giles play in the NBA yet. It's these kind of statements that drive me nuts. You have no freaking idea how good or bad Giles is, and yet you make a statement like that. Giles might end up being a superstar for you all you and I know right now. Or he might be out of the league in two or three years. Point is, we don't know do we? Here's what we do know.

At one point, Giles was considered to be the best player in last years draft. Of course the injury ended that speculation. No, he didn't show much at Duke last year, but then he was recovering from the same injury that he's still currently in rehab for. Quotes from people that have seen him in practice, Zach Randolph, Garrett Temple, Doug Christie, Peja, and James Hamm. "Giles will be an all star in this league". "When Giles hits the floor, he will be the best passer on the team". "Three years from now, Giles will be considered the best player to come out of this draft". "Giles is going to be the best player on this team". That's pretty high praise coming from people I respect.

So far, that's really all we have to go on. Hopefully in the near future we'll have more. But to say off hand that Parker is more talented than Giles, based on zero information for comparison, makes little or no sense.

Well hopefully that’s not all talk and he can be a 15-9-2 guy

 

[Joshoua]

Last thing on Gasol—I am not advocating mortgaging the future to get him, merely to submit a bid. We may end up being the winning bid. They are not going to send him somewhere he does not want to go due to his many years of loyal service, and the Kings might be an attractive option due to our many connections to the Grizzlies. Moreover, this is our one and only “tank” year. We should add a star vet at the deadline, if we can do it for a decent price. A deadline addition should not have an appreciable impact on the tank, will act as talent consolidation (free up minutes) and will be a big help going forward. That said, ideally, this type of trade would happen next summer.

If Vlade trades for Gasol he should be fired on the spot

 

[jcassio]

If Vlade trades for Gasol he should be fired on the spot

There’s no doubt that Z-Bo and Gasol could help us now. But Z-Bo is likely to begin his decline soon (its already happened on the D end) and Gasol will probably begin his decline in 3-4 years. Isn’t that when some of our young stars might finally be ready to push for a championship run?Just seems like the timing is off for the Kings and Gasol if our objective is to win at the highest level.

 

[King Baller]

Why did the Lakers get Lopez and Bogut? Seems like a similar move to trading for Gasol? Seems like Gasol would want to be on a contender and he deserves to be!

 

[Joshoua]

Why did the Lakers get Lopez and Bogut? Seems like a similar move to trading for Gasol? Seems like Gasol would want to be on a contender and he deserves to be!

Lakers don’t have a pick we do so let’s make our pick worse this year while having no pick next year. Smh

 

[gunks]

I wonder how much trade interest there will be for an old zbo playing the way the way he's playing now. I wonder if vlade would actually consider trading him knowing that zbo is joegers favorite guy?

I imagine there has to be a lot of interest. Z-bo off the bench could push a lot of teams over the top.

I think it's wishful thinking though. Vlade signed Z-bo to be a steady vet presence on the floor and keep the kids in games. That's what he's doing. He's also pushing the needle juuuust enough to keep us from locking up that top 5 pick.

It's a shame the FO is taking this weird high ground as far as tanking goes. Last I heard that's called being a treadmill team. Ah well.

 

[sactowndog]

This 1000% I like Bogdanovic but even at age 40 you could argue Manu right now is a better player there stats are nearly identical with Manu playing less minutes with slightly lesser FG%. Bogie is not even close to Manu in terms of natural talent/creativity/athletic ability( right now Manu is a better athlete) it's another level or two or three.

It’s Bogs first year in the league!

How are you guys thinking you can judge off year 1. Granted Bogs played in Europe and is 25 but the speed of the game is very different. I think we need to wait a year or two before passing final judgement. It’s clear Bogs has a high basketball IQ. What we see in terms of offensive output remains to be seen.

 

[sactowndog]

Why did the Lakers get Lopez and Bogut? Seems like a similar move to trading for Gasol? Seems like Gasol would want to be on a contender and he deserves to be!

Because the Lakers aren’t planning to build via the draft! The want to attract free agents (Lebron) and need to show they have a core that is competitive. On top of that, the Lakers don’t have their pick this year, we do.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

There’s no doubt that Z-Bo and Gasol could help us now. But Z-Bo is likely to begin his decline soon (its already happened on the D end) and Gasol will probably begin his decline in 3-4 years. Isn’t that when some of our young stars might finally be ready to push for a championship run?Just seems like the timing is off for the Kings and Gasol if our objective is to win at the highest level.

Very likely, but keep in mind we are trying to win starting next year. This is the only “tank” year. And, we are gunning for big time free agents in summer 2019, after next season. So, if we can add a star vet that will put us on the verge of the playoffs or ideally the 7/8 seed next year, and then help recruit big name vet free agents in summer 2019, that would be a boon to us.

And, I doubt Gasol is moved at the deadline. It sounds like Memphis wants to wait for Conley to come back and push as hard as they can for the playoffs. If Gasol is traded it will probably not be until the offseason.

 

[Kingster]

I imagine there has to be a lot of interest. Z-bo off the bench could push a lot of teams over the top.

I think it's wishful thinking though. Vlade signed Z-bo to be a steady vet presence on the floor and keep the kids in games. That's what he's doing. He's also pushing the needle juuuust enough to keep us from locking up that top 5 pick.

It's a shame the FO is taking this weird high ground as far as tanking goes. Last I heard that's called being a treadmill team. Ah well.

I look at actions more than words. Zach is out because of rest? After two full days of not playing a game? I don't think so. I would expect more of this ("tanking") as the season goes on, with the result of more pt for the youngins, more losses, and more ping pong balls. One has to ask: Is Zach going to be playing a lot in the last third of this season after it is a total foregone conclusion by everyone that this team has no chance whatsoever to reach the playoffs? Answer: No. Next: If Zach is sitting on the bench, how much good is he going to do the youngins in their development? Answer: Very little. It's been reported numerous times that vets don't influence youngins if they aren't playing. If Zach isn't going to playing much, and isn't going to affect the youngins development much in the latter third of the season, then why not trade him?

 

[gunks]

I look at actions more than words. Zach is out because of rest? After two full days of not playing a game? I don't think so. I would expect more of this ("tanking") as the season goes on, with the result of more pt for the youngins, more losses, and more ping pong balls. One has to ask: Is Zach going to be playing a lot in the last third of this season after it is a total foregone conclusion by everyone that this team has no chance whatsoever to reach the playoffs? Answer: No. Next: If Zach is sitting on the bench, how much good is he going to do the youngins in their development? Answer: Very little. It's been reported numerous times that vets don't influence youngins if they aren't playing. If Zach isn't going to playing much, and isn't going to affect the youngins development much in the latter third of the season, then why not trade him?

Good, logical points. But our FO has proven to be anything but logical.

Maybe they'll surprise us this season!

 

[sactowndog]

I look at actions more than words. Zach is out because of rest? After two full days of not playing a game? I don't think so. I would expect more of this ("tanking") as the season goes on, with the result of more pt for the youngins, more losses, and more ping pong balls. One has to ask: Is Zach going to be playing a lot in the last third of this season after it is a total foregone conclusion by everyone that this team has no chance whatsoever to reach the playoffs? Answer: No. Next: If Zach is sitting on the bench, how much good is he going to do the youngins in their development? Answer: Very little. It's been reported numerous times that vets don't influence youngins if they aren't playing. If Zach isn't going to playing much, and isn't going to affect the youngins development much in the latter third of the season, then why not trade him?

Well it’s not just tanking. The Kings have to see what they have with their youth. Who can play and who can’t.

 

[SacTownKid]

I look at actions more than words. Zach is out because of rest? After two full days of not playing a game? I don't think so. I would expect more of this ("tanking") as the season goes on, with the result of more pt for the youngins, more losses, and more ping pong balls. One has to ask: Is Zach going to be playing a lot in the last third of this season after it is a total foregone conclusion by everyone that this team has no chance whatsoever to reach the playoffs? Answer: No. Next: If Zach is sitting on the bench, how much good is he going to do the youngins in their development? Answer: Very little. It's been reported numerous times that vets don't influence youngins if they aren't playing. If Zach isn't going to playing much, and isn't going to affect the youngins development much in the latter third of the season, then why not trade him?

And what was the result of Zach being out you ask? 9 minutes for Skal, 17 for Buddy, 15 for Mason, 14 for Jackson, 12 for Papagiannis. Now on the flipside, Hill got 33 minutes, Koufos 25, Carter 25, Temple 28. If this is finding minutes for youth then they must have numerical dyslexia.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Nice effort tonight by the vets. Great to see joerger continue to develop them. Their games are coming along nicely. Hopefully by the end of the year they can start stringing together some wins and start taking on bigger workloads. Very happy with how our front office is going about this rebuild!

 

[macadocious]

Didn’t see the game and unfortunately saw the score so now I won’t watch it, but is there a chance they are showing the old guys off some for the Dec 15 trade window?

 

[ParniValjak]

Parker can score we needs players that can score and he’s still young and can play SF/PF. No matter who we draft we should target him in free agency. even if we get Porter Jr having a front court of Porter/Jabari/WCS is the way the league is trending. You get as menu 6’7 6’8 guys as you can just look at Boston taking Tatum and Brown. He put up 20-6-3 in 51 games last year we have to gamble on that. A home run off season for us would be Doncic and Parker

I find it so hilarious that this board wanted Rudy Gay gone ASAP even before he ruptured his Achilles because he "didn't fit" and was a "black hole" but now all of a sudden we need to trade for a younger, less athletic, more injury prone version of Rudy Gay? Mind boggles at the contradictions!

 

[Nokidding]

I find it so hilarious that this board wanted Rudy Gay gone ASAP even before he ruptured his Achilles because he "didn't fit" and was a "black hole" but now all of a sudden we need to trade for a younger, less athletic, more injury prone version of Rudy Gay? Mind boggles at the contradictions!

Seriously? Have you seen Parker play for the Bucks he is 10 times more explosive than Rudy Gay although after the injuries we don't know but Parker has athletic ability very few in the NBA have to my eyes he's a much better athlete and dominates the ball way less than Rudy.