[Pre-season]Kings v. Spurs - 10/2/17

I don't want to get carried away after this game but during the real season, when the Kings go to the bench, Fox is going to wreak havoc on other teams backups.

A great problem for Joerger is how to get minutes for all the guards.....just don't know how he's going to do it.
Based on last nights play I think Joerger can see that Papa, Malachi and maybe for now Justin Jackson will be on the outside looking in of a ten man rotation. I personally would like to see the bigs mixed up with one old and young. Our older bigs both compliment the weaknesses of our younger ones.

Maybe a rotation of

Hill, Hield, Temple, Zbo, WCS

Fox, Bogdan, VC, Skal, Koufos

Frank Mason knocking on the door too.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Based on last nights play I think Joerger can see that Papa, Malachi and maybe for now Justin Jackson will be on the outside looking in of a ten man rotation. I personally would like to see the bigs mixed up with one old and young. Our older bigs both compliment the weaknesses of our younger ones.

Maybe a rotation of

Hill, Hield, Temple, Zbo, WCS

Fox, Bogdan, VC, Skal, Koufos

Frank Mason knocking on the door too.
I think the starting lineup was a nod to the vets last night and their stint was going to be short. That said, it may be a bunch of different starting lineups as he tinkers and probably more importantly, what lineup matches up better with the opposition. Interesting at the SG spot where Buddy is more a guy who will look for his shot and BB8 is going to move the ball. I think BB8 is going to be lethal in a 2 man game.....really good passer and sees over defense.
 
Fox's speed is going to be a game changer.

Doesn't seem like much but there was a play where the Spurs missed and the ball bounced right to where Manu was standing on the wing. Out of no where, Fox squirted in there and got the ball before it got to Manu and was instantly back in transition. I've never seen a King seemingly come out of no where like that and get the rebound with such speed.

Couple that with that sweet block on that baseline jumper and his penchant for steals and you've got yourself a more than capable two way player.
 
Fox's speed is going to be a game changer.

Doesn't seem like much but there was a play where the Spurs missed and the ball bounced right to where Manu was standing on the wing. Out of no where, Fox squirted in there and got the ball before it got to Manu and was instantly back in transition. I've never seen a King seemingly come out of no where like that and get the rebound with such speed.

Couple that with that sweet block on that baseline jumper and his penchant for steals and you've got yourself a more than capable two way player.
Fox will be better than Boogie as an impact player, individual production, efficiency, leadership, all-star appearances, and winning. I know they play different positions but they came into league at same age, from same school and almost same draft spot. Boogie was a tremendous talent from Day 1. Fox is a tremendous talent. The difference is maturity and weakness more likely to be addressed and overcome.

I said in my 4000 word team preview and before Fox is a 20+ PPG scorer in this league. Scoring comes easy to him, which is quite exciting given fact he is also an unselfish passer. Last night on two plays he dribbled with his left hand, then finished with his right on a lay-up and lob pass. This is epic! I had not seen this before from him. Most lefties are overly left-hand dominant. The fact he can switch hands when he contorts himself into lane and attacks at various angles is going to keep defense off-balance and make him more lethal.

Tyreke was SO predictable when he would drive lane. He could not finish left. He never developed floater. His finishing ability was predicated on power and size and when he lost his explosiveness he did not have nuance or savvy to compensate. His career flatlined because of this one dimensionality. Fox is already more proficient in these areas: (1) using off hand and (2) shooting the soft floater if he can not get all the way to the cup. I always say the most talented players make the game look easy. Fox makes game look easy. His ankle definitely hampered him in LVSL because last night he looked twice as fast.

The other thing I like about Fox is that even though he is wiry in build he does not look to be afraid of contact.

Frank Mason is NO joke. A lot of confidence and poise for his first game. I compare him to Isaiah in terms of size and ability to run a team. Mason is NOT as fast as Isaiah, but Mason looks stronger. The combination of shooting, speed, strength and low center of gravity for a 5'9" is a headache for opponents. It is type of opponent you dread! Mason is money from deep as his 47% shooting from 3s last year attest. I think there could be minutes for Mason when we go small ball with Fox at the 2 and Buddy or Boggy at the three.

Boggy was nervous last night. I was curious to see how his size compared against teammates and opponents. His size is good. He has good length. The next thing I look forward is his ability to create separation. I didn't see enough but I will expect him to settle down over the next few games. We need Boggy to be a scorer and playmaker off the bench. This has been a substantial flaw of the team over the last decade. There have not been NOT enough players who can make plays for others besides the PG so the whole offense sputters to a halt eventually. No one along the frontline or SG could set up their teammate consistently. Boggy can do this and this is where he can valuable and style of play infectious.

Speaking of making the game look easy (Fox), Skal makes the game look easy. His game last night make those criticizing his summer league play look silly. He is a legitimate threat to score the ball whenever and wherever he gets the ball: on the run, face-up, out of the block. He is patient to survey and attack with high release point and smooth footwork. It will be interesting to see how much of a green light he has to launch the three. He can make that shot and opponents aren't going to be eager to contest. I would not surprised if Skal averaged 1 or 2 three point FGA per game.
 
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Interesting at the SG spot where Buddy is more a guy who will look for his shot and BB8 is going to move the ball. I think BB8 is going to be lethal in a 2 man game.....really good passer and sees over defense.
Yeah, the veteran starting lineup certainly seemed to get a boost of playmaking when BB8 came in. I know Hill had a few assists, but Bogdan really seemed to spark some movement--I counted at least a couple hockey assists.
 
We’re in good hands I don’t care if it’s preseaon. And I’m fairly confident he can develop a 3 point shot to rival a guy like Schroeder
Agreed.

Here is the thing about Fox.

He is so lightning quick, he can get by his defender so easily, that he never really had to develop his outside shot in high school and college.

AND Fox really knows how to finish! He can drive and lay it up, pass it, or make a floater! He is the real deal folks!

I believe he will become a pretty good three point threat (i.e. 33-38% on 3's) in time, give him 2-3 years to develop that outside shot!

The "Future with Fox" is very, very bright Kings fans!!! :cool:
 
I was struck with how quick De'Aaron Fox is even in traffic. It's one thing to be quick in transition but his quickness and aggression in the half court was obvious and extremely useful. He's fun to watch. His skill set is a fantastic match with our big men. Skal was really smooth last night as well. I don't know that he will ever be a real physical presence but his mix of length and athleticism, and touch make him a constant threat to opposing defenses. I think the PGs, Skal, along with the vets (no surprises there) were the high points from last night.

I don't want to make line-up assertions yet as it was only one game and I think the vets got the start out of respect (Coaching staff seems big on that). It was yet another reminder to me of just how much young talent we have and the difficulty of getting everyone opportunities.
 
I was struck with how quick De'Aaron Fox is even in traffic. It's one thing to be quick in transition but his quickness and aggression in the half court was obvious and extremely useful. He's fun to watch. His skill set is a fantastic match with our big men. Skal was really smooth last night as well. I don't know that he will ever be a real physical presence but his mix of length and athleticism, and touch make him a constant threat to opposing defenses. I think the PGs, Skal, along with the vets (no surprises there) were the high points from last night.

I don't want to make line-up assertions yet as it was only one game and I think the vets got the start out of respect (Coaching staff seems big on that). It was yet another reminder to me of just how much young talent we have and the difficulty of getting everyone opportunities.

Skal even showed a nice up and under Kevin McHale style move. They need to continue to let him show his varied skill set both outside and inside. He needs to be involved more in pick and pop plays.
 
Took my son to the game...these guys are going to be fun to watch this year. I thought everyone showed promise. Was very impressed BBs b-ball IQ and his passing. It was little things I noticed. He got the ball just inside the arc on the left wing with Ginobli on him. He took him off the dribble, but used his right shoulder to really get inside on him and create some space . Fox looked great as did Skal. Zbo and Hill also looked good.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I'm home already. It still blows my mind how easy it is to get in and out of the G1C.

Thoughts; The vets were solid. I don't want Koufos starting, but unless/until WCS steps up he'll be out there. Vince Carter was a joy to watch on the bench. Dude was coaching more than Joerger. Excellent signing, just for the vet leadership and whatever he gives us on the court is a bonus.

Jackson --- Missed his shots, but they weren't bad shots. They just didn't go in. No floater game tonight (that I remember)
I "heard" the game, but from what I did hear both Turner and Ross mentioned in the post game that Jackson received three passes with just a few ticks left on the clock, which were either very high that he had to snag like an outfielder at the wall or very low like a short-stop snag. You can deduct those three shots from his misses.
 
I’m excited as a Kings fan right now with our young guys and the 2018 draft. Fox, Bogdan, Skal are all promising players and with the draft we can fix any hole with a top 4-5 pick. WCS looks better on the bench we’ll grab Ayton who is a franchise player or Bamba who looks like Gobert with a shot. All is well with our bigs gran Doncic who looks like Ginobli or Porter who can score at the 3
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Unfortunately I couldn't watch the game from down here in Mexico. So all I have are highlights. From what I saw, Mason and Fox looked like they were still at Kansas and Kentucky. No surprise with either of them. It also appeared that Skal played well. Not sure how Willie fouled out in such a short amount of time. It looked like he was playing OK before doing so. I wouldn't worry about Jackson's shooting. He was a consistent shooter at North Carolina last season, so one game does not a bad shooter make.

My advice is don't make too much out of one preseason game. This team is just scratching the surface of what it's going to become. These guys barely know one another from a basketball point of view. What you see now, is not what these guys will look like two years from now. I know everyone wants to look like an analytic genius, but to draw any conclusions from these early games is ridiculous. What we have are a bunch of kids groping their way into the NBA. The potential is obvious, but the finished product is a little murky and still out of sight.

To whomever that was surprised at Fox's ballhandling, I mentioned many times that what amazed me about Fox was that he played at warp speed most of the time, and yet didn't turn the ball over very much. If your going to play at that speed and seldom turn the ball over, your ballhandling has to be good. He got to the basket at will at Kentucky, and it appeared last night that he was able to do the same. I thought Mason was the heart and soul of that Kansas team, and despite the presence of Josh Jackson, Mason was the best player on that team. He's one tough hombre.

Hopefully we'll get to see Giles in preseason. He's had high praise in practice. I'd like to see Malachi get significant minutes in one of the games to see what he has. He still looks like the odd man out. I hope not. He seems like a hard worker and a good kid. Of course I want them all to be stars. Why not? :rolleyes:
 
I was at the game. I saw 98% of the plays, here are my super hot takes.

1. LOL @Joerger for trolling everyone with the starters. That was hilarious.

2. Fox is right now a top 20 PG in this league. He can play man D fantastic. Pop immediately ran him off a bunch of screens that got him lost, by the 3rd time he started figuring it out. I was blown away by this.

3. Bogie is legit and will be a starter by no later than mid season. He is better than Buddy and I don't actually think it's close. He's also not terrible on Defense.

4. Buddy does not look to make the extra pass. It will earn him a seat on the bench. He can score, but not much else right now. He did not impress. He also still cannot play defense.

5. Skal one minute looks like the best player on the court and then next looks completely overwhelmed. More good than bad from him, like the progression.

6. Malachi looked slow, very, very slow. I don't know it it's the extra muscle or if it's just everyone else is fast.

7. Mason is Legit. We could very well trade Hill at the All Star break and be fine with Fox and Mason, plus being able to use Temple/Bogdan at the back up, back up 1.

8. Willie still cannot play straight up man D. It's weird, because he a great help defender. He was not helped by the refs.

9. JJ was a little deer in head lights, to be expected. Didn't do much good or bad.

10. VC, Hill and Temple were amazing on the bench. I have never witnessed anything like that in person. They were literally doing more than the coaches. It was impressive as all get out.

11. Pappa - yeesh...that's all I got there
 
Fox will be better than Boogie as an impact player, individual production, efficiency, leadership, all-star appearances, and winning. I know they play different positions but they came into league at same age, from same school and almost same draft spot. Boogie was a tremendous talent from Day 1. Fox is a tremendous talent. The difference is maturity and weakness more likely to be addressed and overcome.

I said in my 4000 word team preview and before Fox is a 20+ PPG scorer in this league. Scoring comes easy to him, which is quite exciting given fact he is also an unselfish passer. Last night on two plays he dribbled with his left hand, then finished with his right on a lay-up and lob pass. This is epic! I had not seen this before from him. Most lefties are overly left-hand dominant. The fact he can switch hands when he contorts himself into lane and attacks at various angles is going to keep defense off-balance and make him more lethal.

Tyreke was SO predictable when he would drive lane. He could not finish left. He never developed floater. His finishing ability was predicated on power and size and when he lost his explosiveness he did not have nuance or savvy to compensate. His career flatlined because of this one dimensionality. Fox is already more proficient in these areas: (1) using off hand and (2) shooting the soft floater if he can not get all the way to the cup. I always say the most talented players make the game look easy. Fox makes game look easy. His ankle definitely hampered him in LVSL because last night he looked twice as fast.

The other thing I like about Fox is that even though he is wiry in build he does not look to be afraid of contact.

Frank Mason is NO joke. A lot of confidence and poise for his first game. I compare him to Isaiah in terms of size and ability to run a team. Mason is NOT as fast as Isaiah, but Mason looks stronger. The combination of shooting, speed, strength and low center of gravity for a 5'9" is a headache for opponents. It is type of opponent you dread! Mason is money from deep as his 47% shooting from 3s last year attest. I think there could be minutes for Mason when we go small ball with Fox at the 2 and Buddy or Boggy at the three.

Boggy was nervous last night. I was curious to see how his size compared against teammates and opponents. His size is good. He has good length. The next thing I look forward is his ability to create separation. I didn't see enough but I will expect him to settle down over the next few games. We need Boggy to be a scorer and playmaker off the bench. This has been a substantial flaw of the team over the last decade. There have not been NOT enough players who can make plays for others besides the PG so the whole offense sputters to a halt eventually. No one along the frontline or SG could set up their teammate consistently. Boggy can do this and this is where he can valuable and style of play infectious.

Speaking of making the game look easy (Fox), Skal makes the game look easy. His game last night make those criticizing his summer league play look silly. He is a legitimate threat to score the ball whenever and wherever he gets the ball: on the run, face-up, out of the block. He is patient to survey and attack with high release point and smooth footwork. It will be interesting to see how much of a green light he has to launch the three. He can make that shot and opponents aren't going to be eager to contest. I would not surprised if Skal averaged 1 or 2 three point FGA per game.
Talking about Evans makes me sad because I think if it weren't for the Kings mismanagement of him and his own injuries, he'd be a top 20 player right now(big limb, but I'd argue for it). I don't think Evans has flat lined at all...I think people just forgot about him because he went to the Pelicans. He was productive for the Pelicans in all his years. In his first year, he put up good numbers at 14.5/5/4.7reb. In the 2nd year with the Pelicans, he put up 16.6/6.6/5.3rebs. Despite clearly being their 2nd best player, and helping them get to the playoffs, nobody talked about Tyreke or any other Pelican player outside of AD. When they played against GSW in the playoffs, that's where the Pelicans finally got national limelight and people saw Tyreke and thought, "Oh, he's actually playing, and he's good?". They got swept, but this made people care about the Pelicans, and not just AD.
In his 3rd year, the Pelicans were nationally focused on. However, Tyreke got injured in preseason, and the Pelicans started out 1-9(2 games without AD). When Tyreke came back, they went 11-14, and he put up 15/6.6/5.2rebs on 38.8% 3pt. The NBA world started talking about Tyreke's revival in the NBA and how he was an integral part for AD's success. 25 games into his season, he gets injured for the rest of the season. NBA forgets about him again.

In his 4th year, injuries continued, and people went back to not caring about the Pelicans as a whole. So in reality, it's not that his career flatlined, because it didn't. It's just that....nobody gives a crap about the Pelicans because they're the smallest market in the NBA without playoff success. I think people legitimately just forgot about Tyreke. He played 72 games in his 1st year, and 79 in the 2nd. I don't know any 24yearolds who could put up 14.5pts 5asts and 4.7rebs, but go entirely unnoticed in the NBA. That's NO market for you.

Not digressing anymore, I think Fox and Tyreke have similar playing styles because both are/were ball dominant slashing PGs. The thing that can help Fox live up to his potential vs. Tyreke is his better support system and better roster fit. The support system is a lot better than the Maloof era. Roster fit is better because we have floor spacers in Hield, Hill, Temple, Bogdan, Jackson, and Skal(to some extent). I doubt that Fox and the 20yearold version of DeMarcus would be able to effectively co-exist. Biggest thing Fox has over Tyreke is his IQ, leadership, and charisma. Fox is amazing with all these, whereas Tyreke only had average IQ, and was more humble and quiet.

I'm excited for Fox after being down on him. It's only been 1 preseason game+SL, but his finishing ability has translated insanely good. Sign me up for the Fox 20ppg hypetrain.
 
You watched the game?

Yep, and saw plenty of the two big post up offense going on. It caused some real cutting and spacing issues at times as well. You had a guard trying to circle into the paint between his own bigs and their defenders. I'd like to see more of that 4 out play he was talking about.
 
Unfortunately I couldn't watch the game from down here in Mexico. So all I have are highlights. From what I saw, Mason and Fox looked like they were still at Kansas and Kentucky. No surprise with either of them. It also appeared that Skal played well. Not sure how Willie fouled out in such a short amount of time. It looked like he was playing OK before doing so. I wouldn't worry about Jackson's shooting. He was a consistent shooter at North Carolina last season, so one game does not a bad shooter make.

My advice is don't make too much out of one preseason game. This team is just scratching the surface of what it's going to become. These guys barely know one another from a basketball point of view. What you see now, is not what these guys will look like two years from now. I know everyone wants to look like an analytic genius, but to draw any conclusions from these early games is ridiculous. What we have are a bunch of kids groping their way into the NBA. The potential is obvious, but the finished product is a little murky and still out of sight.

To whomever that was surprised at Fox's ballhandling, I mentioned many times that what amazed me about Fox was that he played at warp speed most of the time, and yet didn't turn the ball over very much. If your going to play at that speed and seldom turn the ball over, your ballhandling has to be good. He got to the basket at will at Kentucky, and it appeared last night that he was able to do the same. I thought Mason was the heart and soul of that Kansas team, and despite the presence of Josh Jackson, Mason was the best player on that team. He's one tough hombre.

Hopefully we'll get to see Giles in preseason. He's had high praise in practice. I'd like to see Malachi get significant minutes in one of the games to see what he has. He still looks like the odd man out. I hope not. He seems like a hard worker and a good kid. Of course I want them all to be stars. Why not? :rolleyes:
You seriously missed a good one if you wanted to be excited about our young core.. You know how critical I am of Fox, but this game single-handily sold me. He came onto the floor and immediately scored a layup, then got a steal on the other end. With his light frame, I expected him to struggle against size and length, but he did a great job in carving his way for layups. He avoided contact on a few of them, but he'll learn in time. Mason looks like Kansas Mason. I didn't like his chucking.. but can you argue against it if he's making them? That's going to be my own weird dilemma.

Skal's offense was beautiful. I'm really not sure how he knows exactly where the rim is with every turn around J. When you see him take a contested turn around jumper, the ball comes out looking like a horrible air, but it's a swish. His footwork is really advanced, and going up against LMA, made me realize he plays like LMA. Defense was a struggle for him though. Same issues we saw last season. Willie got into foul trouble trying to over-help. There was one play where he switched on a screen and pop and followed the ball handler all the way to the rim, and when they kicked out, he ran immediately back to his man, but when he saw the ball being passed towards the baseline, he ran right out to the rim and contested the shot. Speaks a lot about his quickness and agility, but I'd hope Joerger is trying to solidify a defensive role for him. He's versatile and can do all of these things, but you don't want him doing all of these things at the same time.

Jackson's FG is a little misleading because he was forced to put up 2 or 3 shots at the end of a shotclock. He was thrusted into many weird lineups that consisted something along the lines of Mason-Jackson-Skal with Buddy/Malachi/Papa/Cooley interchangeably. There just wasn't anyone who could run an offense in his lineups. There was 1 point where we painfully tried to run the offense through Skal, but he struggled to get any type of offensive positioning against Bertans(lack of strength)....despite that, just kept trying to feed force him the ball. While Jackson missed his shots and played in awkward lineups, he just didn't do much for us last night. Wasn't assertive, and didn't make an impact on the boards or defense.

Malachi's defense looked the best out of every player. He was really composed and had no troubles fighting through screens. It's just too bad that he looks like the odd-man out. When we were in those weird lineups, as I said, ball wasn't moving around. Young guys didn't know how to run an offense, so each time Malachi got the ball, he forced up a bad shot. I don't see a place for Malachi on this current team. His playstyle is a more of an on-ball shot creator. He's just not going to get that type of scoring opportunity when we already have Fox, Hill, Buddy, Bogdan, Randolph, Skal, and WCS ahead of him as scorers. It's just unfortunate for him.
 
You seriously missed a good one if you wanted to be excited about our young core.. You know how critical I am of Fox, but this game single-handily sold me. He came onto the floor and immediately scored a layup, then got a steal on the other end. With his light frame, I expected him to struggle against size and length, but he did a great job in carving his way for layups. He avoided contact on a few of them, but he'll learn in time. Mason looks like Kansas Mason. I didn't like his chucking.. but can you argue against it if he's making them? That's going to be my own weird dilemma.

Skal's offense was beautiful. I'm really not sure how he knows exactly where the rim is with every turn around J. When you see him take a contested turn around jumper, the ball comes out looking like a horrible air, but it's a swish. His footwork is really advanced, and going up against LMA, made me realize he plays like LMA. Defense was a struggle for him though. Same issues we saw last season. Willie got into foul trouble trying to over-help. There was one play where he switched on a screen and pop and followed the ball handler all the way to the rim, and when they kicked out, he ran immediately back to his man, but when he saw the ball being passed towards the baseline, he ran right out to the rim and contested the shot. Speaks a lot about his quickness and agility, but I'd hope Joerger is trying to solidify a defensive role for him. He's versatile and can do all of these things, but you don't want him doing all of these things at the same time.

Jackson's FG is a little misleading because he was forced to put up 2 or 3 shots at the end of a shotclock. He was thrusted into many weird lineups that consisted something along the lines of Mason-Jackson-Skal with Buddy/Malachi/Papa/Cooley interchangeably. There just wasn't anyone who could run an offense in his lineups. There was 1 point where we painfully tried to run the offense through Skal, but he struggled to get any type of offensive positioning against Bertans(lack of strength)....despite that, just kept trying to feed force him the ball. While Jackson missed his shots and played in awkward lineups, he just didn't do much for us last night. Wasn't assertive, and didn't make an impact on the boards or defense.

Malachi's defense looked the best out of every player. He was really composed and had no troubles fighting through screens. It's just too bad that he looks like the odd-man out. When we were in those weird lineups, as I said, ball wasn't moving around. Young guys didn't know how to run an offense, so each time Malachi got the ball, he forced up a bad shot. I don't see a place for Malachi on this current team. His playstyle is a more of an on-ball shot creator. He's just not going to get that type of scoring opportunity when we already have Fox, Hill, Buddy, Bogdan, Randolph, Skal, and WCS ahead of him as scorers. It's just unfortunate for him.
In regards to Malachi, I think anyone can become a 3&D type player. So if his job is to play the Vince Carter role and wait for someone to find him open, then I think he can do that. Personally I think he is capable of a good amount more than that but he's going to give the team what it needs so if that's what Joerger asks for, then I think he can do it. He looked better last year when he was surrounded by more experienced players so I don't know if it's just the injury, his development or if he is indeed the odd man out. Either way Reno is just a couple hours away and it would be hard to keep him there if he's averaging 20ppg with good defense.

Then again it was just one game so lets see it through. I'd like to see him mingled in with the 2nd tier bench group or the starters to really see what he can do. Frank Mason said in his interview that they were running lineups they had never ran before and you could tell by how discombobulated things looked late in the game. Players were sort of taking a "this is my turn" approach rather than swinging the ball around and finding the open man like they did in the first half.

The cool thing was that they still hit a good amount of their shots which goes to show how much work these guys have been putting in.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Will be interesting when SA plays the Kings again. Pop doesn't like a rook to make him look bad. He'll probably make some adjustments to try to slow down Fox.