[Game] Kings @ Jazz - 12/10/16 - 6PT/9ET

[fansinceday1]

This is the draft pick situation from here out:

2017:
Chicago gets our pick this year if it isn't in the top 10. Otherwise they get our second round pick next year and we no longer owe them anything.
Also, if our pick is in the top 10 then Philly has swap rights. They'll trade us their lottery pick for ours only if ours is better (they're currently tied with Dallas for the worst record in the league).

2018:
We keep our pick in 2018 because you can't trade consecutive picks.

2019:
Philly gets our first round pick in 2019 no matter what. Hopefully it isn't a good one.

That's some genius crap right there. Whoever did that, sign him to a long term contract.

 

[Bricklayer]

You love this "hanging in there" narrative and, frankly, it's nauseating because at the same time you constantly tell us that Cuz is a Hall of Famer and one of the best players in the game. If he's a HOF'er and as good as you say he is, then we shouldn't be talking about moral victories and simply being competitive (while losing to NY at home, a depleted Utah team, blowing the lead to LAL at home, etc). Moral victories and being competitive are for teams like the 76ers who have a ton of young talent and are just figuring out how to compete. If we have a HOF'er in his prime, surrounded by vets, then we should expect to actually WIN at least half our games.

And we've been in position to do just that. This one was disappointing because its the first one in quite a while when we were not a threat. Well..again actually, we hung in there into the 4th, but collapsed.

As for the rest, talk to Anthony Davis about how fun it is.

 

[Npliam]

As I pointed out before the game. Hence why I hoped we could mug them.

Still, easy schedule or not...it's that strange almost arrogance thing -- since when are games against winning teams suddenly these automatic wins? I mean, you hope. We played them tough both times, and they are one of a number of teams that I am not entirely convinced are better than us. But I'm also far from convinced we are better than them. We can play them tough, but they have a good coach, had us scouted well, and have more weapons than we do. They are the more talented team.

And yet again, down to the wire, had our chances to win it in the final minute = unacceptable! yadda. yadda.

The combination of arrogance and pessimism is strange. I have noticed a lot more this year than in previous years.

 

[hrdboild]

You love this "hanging in there" narrative and, frankly, it's nauseating because at the same time you constantly tell us that Cuz is a Hall of Famer and one of the best players in the game. If he's a HOF'er and as good as you say he is, then we shouldn't be talking about moral victories and simply being competitive (while losing to NY at home, a depleted Utah team, blowing the lead to LAL at home, etc). Moral victories and being competitive are for teams like the 76ers who have a ton of young talent and are just figuring out how to compete. If we have a HOF'er in his prime, surrounded by vets, then we should expect to actually WIN at least half our games.

You know, I've liked DeMarcus since the first time I saw him play in the McDonald's All-American game. I wanted us to draft him, I was thrilled when we did, and I've enjoyed watching him grow into the impossibly talented scoring machine that he has become. But sadly, this is the first year where some of the shine is wearing off and I'm starting to wonder if he's as good as I think he is or if maybe he's a good numbers on a bad team type of guy. Let me be clear: a whole lot of what has gone on is not his fault. The self-defeating ownership gaffes of the Maloofs and Vivek are the primary reason why this team continues to flounder in mediocrity year after year and the talent around Cousins is just not up to par. But other teams with top 5 players are making the playoffs. Sure there's New Orleans who remains terrible this year despite Anthony Davis leading the league in scoring, but they made the playoffs two years ago when everyone was healthy and it was basically just Davis, Jrue, Eric Gordon, and Tyreke. Actually, they seem to be experiencing the same problem we are: the more they build their offense around featuring Anthony Davis, the worse the team performs.

But here's what's confusing to me: a team composed of James Harden and a fleet of shooters playing D'Antoni gimmick ball has the third best record in the Western Conference right now and we can't buy a win. Russell Westbrook dominating every OKC possession like the Tasmanian Devil is good enough for a 14-9 record but Cousins/Gay and a league average defense is only good enough for 8-15. When reality doesn't appear to match up with your beliefs you could try to bend reality, but that's just lying to yourself. So I'm forced to do some re-evaluating and the conclusion I've come to at this point is that Cousins is very good but he's not elite yet. And the reason he's not elite yet is because he doesn't know how to consistently take over games. There are a lot of players in this league who are incredibly talented. Giannis Antetokuonmpo is re-defining the point forward position this season. We saw Karl-Anthony Towns looking like the best big man ever for flashes during his rookie season. The list goes on and on. But what separates the elite players from everyone else is that they know how to get a basket when their team needs one. They come up with the big stops to save the game. They're the ones demanding more and pulling everyone else up to their level. DeMarcus can be a franchise player and have off-nights. He can be an All-Star and have off nights. But he can't be elite -- a top 5 player in the league -- and not have an impact. If this was the first Kings game I'd seen this season I'd call up Utah and offer them DeMarcus straight up for Rudy Gobert because Gobert dominated that game and DeMarcus was a non-factor.

So while the numbers say he's elite this season, that's more a reflection of the poor quality of his teammates than an indication that he's reached that next level. If he never gets better than he is now he's a solid All-Star, a franchise big man, All-NBA, an Olympian and that's terrific. That's really the best we could have hoped for with a #5 pick anyway isn't it? But Hall of Fame? Let's hold off on that until he leads a team to at least a .500 record and looks good doing it. A player his size shooting a respectable percentage on volume threes is unprecedented, but it's not helping the team win if he can't figure out when it's a good shot and when it's a bad shot. Three years ago he would have demanded the ball in the post with the game on the line and now he's more likely to try and drive the ball from the three point line. The skill-level remains mystifying, but I don't consider that progress. I think a lot of us fall into the trap of looking at everything Cousins can do and projecting who he might be if he puts it all together. We did the same thing for 4 years when Tyreke was here. But something doesn't add up to me. I can live with the body language and the complaining when he's dominating games but when he's acting like he's the man while air balling jumpers, short-arming layups, driving wildly into defenders, and taking defensive possessions off I start to understand why so many NBA fans think the Kings are just enabling him by feeding his ego without holding him accountable for his mistakes.

 

[mac]

Realistically we won't have a chance at .500 until after the break.

Not saying it's impossible, but I'm not going to pin my hopes on a team that hasn't even sniffed the playoffs in X years making a late push to sneak in. Or on one that has a culture of quitting mid-way through the season. Yeah sure, players have changed and whatnot, but it's far from proven.

 

[mac]

The Knicks are a 13-10 team last time I checked.

I hoped we'd beat them. But they were again no free win.

And yes, the point is that this team has hung in there every night against everyone. New York included. That's important.

But that's the whole point isn't it! At this rate no frikin team we play is a "free win" aside from the Dallas Mavericks! If we were a good team, we'd be the ones at 13-10 (or closer), it's as simple as that! Yeah great let's hang around. Hang ourselves around all the way to the 11th pick and lose it to Chicago and we can have keep doing this every single season for the next 5 years until we make the playoffs. What a great plan.

 

[mac]

That 13-10 is deceptive. They've had an easy schedule.

Schedule only matters when it makes the Kings poor performance somehow look better.

 

[kingjatt]

You know, I've liked DeMarcus since the first time I saw him play in the McDonald's All-American game. I wanted us to draft him, I was thrilled when we did, and I've enjoyed watching him grow into the impossibly talented scoring machine that he has become. But sadly, this is the first year where some of the shine is wearing off and I'm starting to wonder if he's as good as I think he is or if maybe he's a good numbers on a bad team type of guy. Let me be clear: a whole lot of what has gone on is not his fault. The self-defeating ownership gaffes of the Maloofs and Vivek are the primary reason why this team continues to flounder in mediocrity year after year and the talent around Cousins is just not up to par. But other teams with top 5 players are making the playoffs. Sure there's New Orleans who remains terrible this year despite Anthony Davis leading the league in scoring, but they made the playoffs two years ago when everyone was healthy and it was basically just Davis, Jrue, Eric Gordon, and Tyreke. Actually, they seem to be experiencing the same problem we are: the more they build their offense around featuring Anthony Davis, the worse the team performs.

But here's what's confusing to me: a team composed of James Harden and a fleet of shooters playing D'Antoni gimmick ball has the third best record in the Western Conference right now and we can't buy a win. Russell Westbrook dominating every OKC possession like the Tasmanian Devil is good enough for a 14-9 record but Cousins/Gay and a league average defense is only good enough for 8-15. When reality doesn't appear to match up with your beliefs you could try to bend reality, but that's just lying to yourself. So I'm forced to do some re-evaluating and the conclusion I've come to at this point is that Cousins is very good but he's not elite yet. And the reason he's not elite yet is because he doesn't know how to consistently take over games. There are a lot of players in this league who are incredibly talented. Giannis Antetokuonmpo is re-defining the point forward position this season. We saw Karl-Anthony Towns looking like the best big man ever for flashes during his rookie season. The list goes on and on. But what separates the elite players from everyone else is that they know how to get a basket when their team needs one. They come up with the big stops to save the game. They're the ones demanding more and pulling everyone else up to their level. DeMarcus can be a franchise player and have off-nights. He can be an All-Star and have off nights. But he can't be elite -- a top 5 player in the league -- and not have an impact. If this was the first Kings game I'd seen this season I'd call up Utah and offer them DeMarcus straight up for Rudy Gobert because Gobert dominated that game and DeMarcus was a non-factor.

So while the numbers say he's elite this season, that's more a reflection of the poor quality of his teammates than an indication that he's reached that next level. If he never gets better than he is now he's a solid All-Star, a franchise big man, All-NBA, an Olympian and that's terrific. That's really the best we could have hoped for with a #5 pick anyway isn't it? But Hall of Fame? Let's hold off on that until he leads a team to at least a .500 record and looks good doing it. A player his size shooting a respectable percentage on volume threes is unprecedented, but it's not helping the team win if he can't figure out when it's a good shot and when it's a bad shot. Three years ago he would have demanded the ball in the post with the game on the line and now he's more likely to try and drive the ball from the three point line. The skill-level remains mystifying, but I don't consider that progress. I think a lot of us fall into the trap of looking at everything Cousins can do and projecting who he might be if he puts it all together. We did the same thing for 4 years when Tyreke was here. But something doesn't add up to me. I can live with the body language and the complaining when he's dominating games but when he's acting like he's the man while air balling jumpers, short-arming layups, driving wildly into defenders, and taking defensive possessions off I start to understand why so many NBA fans think the Kings are just enabling him by feeding his ego without holding him accountable for his mistakes.

No big man lead team is doing well, its a guard/wing league now and the rules are taylored towards it. Vlade has built a playoff team....for 1999 but for 2016 you need at least one elite perimeter talent. We dont have that right now and have no means of accquiring it.

 

[Bricklayer]

You know, I've liked DeMarcus since the first time I saw him play in the McDonald's All-American game. I wanted us to draft him, I was thrilled when we did, and I've enjoyed watching him grow into the impossibly talented scoring machine that he has become. But sadly, this is the first year where some of the shine is wearing off and I'm starting to wonder if he's as good as I think he is or if maybe he's a good numbers on a bad team type of guy. Let me be clear: a whole lot of what has gone on is not his fault. The self-defeating ownership gaffes of the Maloofs and Vivek are the primary reason why this team continues to flounder in mediocrity year after year and the talent around Cousins is just not up to par. But other teams with top 5 players are making the playoffs. Sure there's New Orleans who remains terrible this year despite Anthony Davis leading the league in scoring, but they made the playoffs two years ago when everyone was healthy and it was basically just Davis, Jrue, Eric Gordon, and Tyreke. Actually, they seem to be experiencing the same problem we are: the more they build their offense around featuring Anthony Davis, the worse the team performs.

But here's what's confusing to me: a team composed of James Harden and a fleet of shooters playing D'Antoni gimmick ball has the third best record in the Western Conference right now and we can't buy a win. Russell Westbrook dominating every OKC possession like the Tasmanian Devil is good enough for a 14-9 record but Cousins/Gay and a league average defense is only good enough for 8-15. When reality doesn't appear to match up with your beliefs you could try to bend reality, but that's just lying to yourself. So I'm forced to do some re-evaluating and the conclusion I've come to at this point is that Cousins is very good but he's not elite yet. And the reason he's not elite yet is because he doesn't know how to consistently take over games. There are a lot of players in this league who are incredibly talented. Giannis Antetokuonmpo is re-defining the point forward position this season. We saw Karl-Anthony Towns looking like the best big man ever for flashes during his rookie season. The list goes on and on. But what separates the elite players from everyone else is that they know how to get a basket when their team needs one. They come up with the big stops to save the game. They're the ones demanding more and pulling everyone else up to their level. DeMarcus can be a franchise player and have off-nights. He can be an All-Star and have off nights. But he can't be elite -- a top 5 player in the league -- and not have an impact. If this was the first Kings game I'd seen this season I'd call up Utah and offer them DeMarcus straight up for Rudy Gobert because Gobert dominated that game and DeMarcus was a non-factor.

So while the numbers say he's elite this season, that's more a reflection of the poor quality of his teammates than an indication that he's reached that next level. If he never gets better than he is now he's a solid All-Star, a franchise big man, All-NBA, an Olympian and that's terrific. That's really the best we could have hoped for with a #5 pick anyway isn't it? But Hall of Fame? Let's hold off on that until he leads a team to at least a .500 record and looks good doing it. A player his size shooting a respectable percentage on volume threes is unprecedented, but it's not helping the team win if he can't figure out when it's a good shot and when it's a bad shot. Three years ago he would have demanded the ball in the post with the game on the line and now he's more likely to try and drive the ball from the three point line. The skill-level remains mystifying, but I don't consider that progress. I think a lot of us fall into the trap of looking at everything Cousins can do and projecting who he might be if he puts it all together. We did the same thing for 4 years when Tyreke was here. But something doesn't add up to me. I can live with the body language and the complaining when he's dominating games but when he's acting like he's the man while air balling jumpers, short-arming layups, driving wildly into defenders, and taking defensive possessions off I start to understand why so many NBA fans think the Kings are just enabling him by feeding his ego without holding him accountable for his mistakes.

I read these things and I continue to SMH so hard it might just rock off one of these days.

Kings fans, even the more knowledigible ones, often don't know the league's history or apparently watch many non-Kings games. Maybe its the proximity of the Golden State machine, not sure. Whatever it is, its bizarre. In the two weeks coming into this game Cousins was averaging 31pts 11rebs 4ast 2blks a game. I should not have to explain the historic level of those numbers. Those numbers are comparable to Shaq in his MVP year. They're better than Hakeem in his. Now whether Boogie can maintain that level or not is hardly the point. The point would be that with him putting up numbers at an historic rate, we were still coming up just short in games during that stretch. There is obscenity there, but its not on Cousins. People failed, but they certainly weren't named DeMarcus.

And again those who know their history know that Shaq wasn't singlehandedly carrying his teams at that level, and then being tasked with closing the door by himself. That's a crazy thing to ask. Some dude named Kobe did a lot of the closing, when closing was even needed on a team that good. Hakeem was surrounded by a rogue's gallery of famously clutch shooters in Horry and Maxwell and Smith and Elie and Cassel who hit their big shots when called upon.

 

[hrdboild]

I read these things and I continue to SMH so hard it might just rock off one of these days.

Kings fans, even the more knowledigible ones, often don't know the league's history or apparently watch many non-Kings games. Maybe its the proximity of the Golden State machine, not sure. Whatever it is, its bizarre. In the two weeks coming into this game Cousins was averaging 31pts 11rebs 4ast 2blks a game. I should not have to explain the historic level of those numbers. Those numbers are comparable to Shaq in his MVP year. They're better than Hakeem in his. Now whether Boogie can maintain that level or not is hardly the point. The point would be that with him putting up numbers at an historic rate, we were still coming up just short in games during that stretch. There is obscenity there, but its not on Cousins. People failed, but they certainly weren't named DeMarcus.

And again those who know their history know that Shaq wasn't singlehandedly carrying his teams at that level, and then being tasked with closing the door by himself. That's a crazy thing to ask. Some dude named Kobe did a lot of the closing, when closing was even needed on a team that good. Hakeem was surrounded by a rogue's gallery of famously clutch shooters in Horry and Maxwell and Smith and Elie and Cassel who hit their big shots when called upon.

But those are just numbers Brick. Tracy McGrady put up a lot of sexy numbers on losing teams too. What's the consensus on his career? Wasted talent? Rick Adelman's Rockets went on a 20 win binge with him on the bench. Shareef Abdur-Rahim put up 20 and 10 seasons consistently as the man on a losing team but he was never a franchise player. You're talking about Shaq.. did he play on a losing team even once in his 19 year career? He led the Lakers to 56 wins when Kobe was still an irrationally confident 18 year old air-balling his threes. Or look at Steph Curry. He was good before GS became the greatest team ever, but he wouldn't get half the attention he does if they weren't winning games. He's had multiple games this season already where he was 0'fer 10 on threes. The numbers don't mean a lot if they never translate to wins.

Part of that is just rhetorical nonsense, you're right. Teams win and players get labeled as "winners" because of it. And I've argued all year that this roster is worse than last year's so I'm more inclined to give DeMarcus the benefit of the doubt. I knew this game was the second night of a home/road b2b so I even expected DeMarcus to come out flat and run out of gas after 3 quarters. Those are all terrific explanations but there's comes a point where results do count for something. We had a playoff roster last year and that mess wasn't all on George Karl. The players tuned him out completely and we got worse not better. DeMarcus needs a strong-willed coach to tell him to knock it off when he's losing focus and that has to be seen as a flaw in his game considering he's a 6 year veteran and its still an issue. It's not just immaturity anymore. He has a real blindspot when it comes to seeing the big picture. You could argue that he wouldn't need to throw up as many shots if his teammates could make a few but look at the crap Lebron managed to turn into gold in his first stint in Cleveland. We have shooters but they're mostly watching while DeMarcus throws up volume threes. It's not a good look. It's, dare I say it, Kobe-esque even.

Take a step back a minute and picture DeMarcus on another team. Is he a surefire HOFer putting up these numbers on 35 win teams that you don't root for? You'd be skeptical right? You'd wonder how that's even possible. I'm not jumping off the bandwagon. I've been one of the strongest Cousins supporters since the beginning and he is amazing but his legacy so far is that he'll get you 90% of the way and then trip on his own feet before crossing the finish line. He lets opponents get under his skin and throw him off his game. He certainly has the talent to be a HOF player and maybe that's enough but I don't think anyone here cares how good he is individually if we're only going to win 35-40 games every year.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

... So while the numbers say he's elite this season, that's more a reflection of the poor quality of his teammates than an indication that he's reached that next level. If he never gets better than he is now he's a solid All-Star, a franchise big man, All-NBA, an Olympian and that's terrific. That's really the best we could have hoped for with a #5 pick anyway isn't it? But Hall of Fame? Let's hold off on that until he leads a team to at least a .500 record and looks good doing it...

... In the two weeks coming into this game Cousins was averaging 31pts 11rebs 4ast 2blks a game. I should not have to explain the historic level of those numbers. Those numbers are comparable to Shaq in his MVP year. They're better than Hakeem in his. Now whether Boogie can maintain that level or not is hardly the point. The point would be that with him putting up numbers at an historic rate, we were still coming up just short in games during that stretch. There is obscenity there, but its not on Cousins. People failed, but they certainly weren't named DeMarcus...

I feel like both these points of view miss the mark, to a certain extent: you're both sort of talking past each other, and neither one of you is entirely wrong. This schism (not between the two of you, specifically, but between these ideals), however, has contributed largely to the incredibly asinine Hyperbole Olympics that has been going on for years here, between "STATS STATS STATS" people and 'WINS WINS WINS" people. And both sides think that they're the True Scotsmen Kings Fans, and that the other side is entirely populated by deluded sheep, or whatever... it's annoying and stupid, coming from both directions.

As it pertains to Cousins in the specific, I find the debate to be interesting, if problematic, because it seems like we may be headed towards a situation where the Naismith Memorial of Fame is going to have to create wholly new precedent just for DeMarcus Cousins. If you legitimately believe in your heart that Cousins is never going to lead a team to the playoffs, then that poses an interesting question, because there is literally no precedent for someone with Cousins's numbers being kept out of the Hall of Fame, barring injuries. I'm not talking about averages 'cause, hell, Webber has the averages; I'm talking raw numbers. Barring a career altering/ending injury, DeMarcus Cousins, even if he has already plateaued and never gets any better than he is right now, is on track to finish his career with 23,000+ points and 11,000+ rebounds. Nobody with those numbers has ever been kept out of the Hall of Fame. Ever.

On the other hand... there is also no precedent for multiple-time All-Stars that don't make the playoffs to make it into the Hall of Fame. Because there is basically no precedent for such a thing in the first place. In fact, in the entire history of the NBA, there are only three guys who have ever been selected to the All-Star team two or more times, without a single trip to the playoffs in their career, and all three of them have some kind of association with this franchise: Tom Van Arsdale, Geoff Petrie and DeMarcus Cousins. If you believe (and I don't) that Cousins is going to go his whole career without getting to the playoffs, or else have an Abdur-Rahim like career, where he only makes the playoffs once, as a non-factor in the final season of his career, then you have to think that Cousins is going to become the new "Mendoza line" of the HOF. Although it would be interesting to see the HOF evolve into a place where "being better than DeMarcus Cousins" becomes the new standard for entry.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Take a step back a minute and picture DeMarcus on another team. Is he a surefire HOFer putting up these numbers on 35 win teams that you don't root for? You'd be skeptical right? You'd wonder how that's even possible.

I mean, you tell me: how many people are skeptical of Anthony Davis' numbers, and how many people just think that New Orleans needs to get him some help?

 

[dude12]

I mean, you tell me: how many people are skeptical of Anthony Davis' numbers, and how many people just think that New Orleans needs to get him some help?

This

 

[dude12]

But those are just numbers Brick. Tracy McGrady put up a lot of sexy numbers on losing teams too. What's the consensus on his career? Wasted talent? Rick Adelman's Rockets went on a 20 win binge with him on the bench. Shareef Abdur-Rahim put up 20 and 10 seasons consistently as the man on a losing team but he was never a franchise player. You're talking about Shaq.. did he play on a losing team even once in his 19 year career? He led the Lakers to 56 wins when Kobe was still an irrationally confident 18 year old air-balling his threes. Or look at Steph Curry. He was good before GS became the greatest team ever, but he wouldn't get half the attention he does if they weren't winning games. He's had multiple games this season already where he was 0'fer 10 on threes. The numbers don't mean a lot if they never translate to wins.

Part of that is just rhetorical nonsense, you're right. Teams win and players get labeled as "winners" because of it. And I've argued all year that this roster is worse than last year's so I'm more inclined to give DeMarcus the benefit of the doubt. I knew this game was the second night of a home/road b2b so I even expected DeMarcus to come out flat and run out of gas after 3 quarters. Those are all terrific explanations but there's comes a point where results do count for something. We had a playoff roster last year and that mess wasn't all on George Karl. The players tuned him out completely and we got worse not better. DeMarcus needs a strong-willed coach to tell him to knock it off when he's losing focus and that has to be seen as a flaw in his game considering he's a 6 year veteran and its still an issue. It's not just immaturity anymore. He has a real blindspot when it comes to seeing the big picture. You could argue that he wouldn't need to throw up as many shots if his teammates could make a few but look at the crap Lebron managed to turn into gold in his first stint in Cleveland. We have shooters but they're mostly watching while DeMarcus throws up volume threes. It's not a good look. It's, dare I say it, Kobe-esque even.

Take a step back a minute and picture DeMarcus on another team. Is he a surefire HOFer putting up these numbers on 35 win teams that you don't root for? You'd be skeptical right? You'd wonder how that's even possible. I'm not jumping off the bandwagon. I've been one of the strongest Cousins supporters since the beginning and he is amazing but his legacy so far is that he'll get you 90% of the way and then trip on his own feet before crossing the finish line. He lets opponents get under his skin and throw him off his game. He certainly has the talent to be a HOF player and maybe that's enough but I don't think anyone here cares how good he is individually if we're only going to win 35-40 games every year.

Instead of picturing Cousins on another team, picture what it would be like if he played with a top flight PG. It's not the current PG rotation. Was Rondo top tier? I don't think so but may have been the best he's played with. IT? That is the upgrade we need.

 

[funkykingston]

I mean, you tell me: how many people are skeptical of Anthony Davis' numbers, and how many people just think that New Orleans needs to get him some help?

Davis and Boogie are good parallels. Wildly talented bigs putting up big numbers on losing teams. Both need a star PG or star wing ro have a chance at real success but both front offices have failed for years to land one.

I would trade everything on the roster other than Cousins or future draft picks to land that second star. But there isn't one out there that the Kings could land with the assets they have. That's the sobering reality for me.

And this Kings team is in an incredibly awful position right now. If they do manage to play just a bit better then they get into the worst case scenario of not making the playoffs and still losing their draft pick to Chicago while going into the offseason with no PGs under contract, Matt Barnes as the only SF and the 2nd best player on the team being either Barnes, Koufos or Temple.

There are 3 rookie 1st rounders on the roster but none have earned any minutes and only one (Skal) currently shows the potential of ever being more than a rotation guy but he's probably got about the same odds of being a non-factor or bust.

Cauley-Stein can't rebound and has an inconsistent motor. Stauskas was already dealt to Philly for caproom. McLemore is at the end of his rookie deal and will likely leave as a free agent when (hopefully) the Kings decline to match an offer from another team gambling that they can tap into Ben's "untapped potential".

This roster is mediocre to terrible now and poised to get worse. Vlade Divac is the biggest impact free agent the Sacramento Kings have ever signed so while I'm no Rudy Gay fan, there's not much hope of signing a better player in free agency.

They stand a decent chance of losing their pick this year and will definitely lose their pick in 2019. Vlade gambled on building around Cousins on the fly and he lost. The cupboard is now about to be bare and the Kings are still looking like a 28-30 win team.

To me the question of whether Cousins is a real star player who hasn't been given enough help or a good player putting up stats on a bad team has been rendered irrelevant by the roster situation.

IMO the only way the Kings have a shot at a promising future is by trading away the only real chip they have to start a true rebuild. I never wanted to see Cousins traded until this season but now I don't see another path forward.

Of course a rebuild relies on hitting on a player or two in the lottery and if the Kings had been able to do that in the last six years the team wouldn't be where it is now anyway.

Not a lot of sunshine to be found in Kingsland these days.

 

[funkykingston]

Instead of picturing Cousins on another team, picture what it would be like if he played with a top flight PG. It's not the current PG rotation. Was Rondo top tier? I don't think so but may have been the best he's played with. IT? That is the upgrade we need.

True but there's now way to acquire that top tier PG. With the assets the Kings have it would require gambling on a young PG who really pans out like Dallas getting Nash from Phoenix. But even that cost them a lottery pick (that turned out to be Marion) and the Kings can't currently even trade a 1st rounder earlier than 2020.

 

[dude12]

True but there's now way to acquire that top tier PG. With the assets the Kings have it would require gambling on a young PG who really pans out like Dallas getting Nash from Phoenix. But even that cost them a lottery pick (that turned out to be Marion) and the Kings can't currently even trade a 1st rounder earlier than 2020.

It's what I've been saying lately, Boogie has to convince his Kentucky buddies, Wall or Bledsoe to come here. Otherwise, it's some type of trade or free-agency,or draft or Euro guy. Come Dec 15, maybe Sac can flip Gay for a guy who becomes eligible or wait for the healthy Payne.

 

[KingsFan80]

So frustrating. I am not sure which is worse, the Kings or 49ers FO

 

[CelticsFan]

It's what I've been saying lately, Boogie has to convince his Kentucky buddies, Wall or Bledsoe to come here.

It would be great to get either of those guys here but the Kings just don't have the assets. If Boogie really wants to play with them it would be easier for him to sign with WAS or Phoenix

 

[dude12]

It would be great to get either of those guys here but the Kings just don't have the assets. If Boogie really wants to play with them it would be easier for him to sign with WAS or Phoenix

When they are FA's.

 

[funkykingston]

It's what I've been saying lately, Boogie has to convince his Kentucky buddies, Wall or Bledsoe to come here. Otherwise, it's some type of trade or free-agency,or draft or Euro guy. Come Dec 15, maybe Sac can flip Gay for a guy who becomes eligible or wait for the healthy Payne.

Both Wall and Bledsoe are signed for two more seasons after this one.

 

[hrdboild]

I mean, you tell me: how many people are skeptical of Anthony Davis' numbers, and how many people just think that New Orleans needs to get him some help?

But we do this all the time as sports fans. We look at a player's numbers and say "we need to get that guy" and then you do go out and get him and it turns out he's not who you thought he was because you weren't actually watching him play. DeMarcus Cousins is the first player I can think of where a lot of NBA fans look at the eye-popping stats and say "I don't care, I still don't want him" -- such is his reputation at this point. Are they all wrong? You've watched this team play as much as anyone, do you not have any concern about the way DeMarcus is developing right now? I genuinely think he's a great guy but he has some problems controlling his emotions and it rarely helps the team when he loses control. If he does make it another 6 years without making it to the playoffs (or even playing on a winning team) his Hall of Fame candidacy will be in doubt regardless of how many video game numbers he puts up along the way.

You pointed out that the perception problem is real in your previous post -- and it's exactly what I can't reconcile with as a fan. There's never been a player who's been this good for this long and yet his team is completely hopeless. Not just bad, but completely hopeless. We've passed the 30 win mark just once in 6 seasons! That's an awfully low bar of competitiveness to ask for. We're on pace for another 30 win season right now. And while I still think the talent is real and that I could put together a winning team that features Cousins right now (self promotion: Rebuilding Around Cousins) it's fair to ask whether this franchise is capable of doing it or not. Nothing they've tried has worked and they've tried a lot of different rosters. We had a pretty talented roster already in his rookie season. Nope, total implosion. Year 2 we added Isaiah Thomas and somehow got even worse. Year 3 was a Maloof-led march to the bottom, so I'll ignore that one. Year 4 was the three-headed monster. They scored a ton of points but couldn't defend anybody. Year 5 started out with a coherent plan that was working but then Malone-gate happened. Then last year if they played even passable defense they would have made the playoffs and perhaps even scared somebody in the first round. Nope. They were so bad the second half of the year that they fell from the 8 seed in the West to the 8th pick in the draft in a matter of months. Our response has been to off-load Rondo and gamble on aging role-players instead...

So I guess that's my problem. It's not DeMarcus, not really -- it's unfair to expect him to be the most complete player in the league. It's unfair to ask him to carry a bunch of nobodies to the promised land. And anyone saying that he's so good that all we need to put around him is a bunch of nobodies is basically forcing him out of Sacramento because clearly that's not the case. The Clippers would still be a floundering mess even with Blake Griffin if they didn't trade for Chris Paul and draft DeAndre Jordan. You can't do 33% of the job and then pat yourself on the back and talk about how good your superstar is like you're guaranteed a championship if you just keep him happy. He's incredibly talented but he's not superhuman, regardless of what the numbers say. I've been arguing with Brick about this all season because I'm pissed off that this is the team we put on the floor for the inaugural season in the Golden 1 Center. You have a franchise big man! You have a top 10 pick! You have cap space! Do something with it! This season was doomed before it even started and I'm actually worried now that forcing DeMarcus to carry the load on both ends so completely is forcing him to develop bad habits which are irreversible. And if we're going to say that all the losses have nothing to do with DeMarcus' bad habits, well, that's even more hopeless isn't it? That means he'll win when he gets off this team and we'll go on losing because that's just who we are.

 

[Kingster]

Davis and Boogie are good parallels. Wildly talented bigs putting up big numbers on losing teams. Both need a star PG or star wing ro have a chance at real success but both front offices have failed for years to land one.

I would trade everything on the roster other than Cousins or future draft picks to land that second star. But there isn't one out there that the Kings could land with the assets they have. That's the sobering reality for me.

And this Kings team is in an incredibly awful position right now. If they do manage to play just a bit better then they get into the worst case scenario of not making the playoffs and still losing their draft pick to Chicago while going into the offseason with no PGs under contract, Matt Barnes as the only SF and the 2nd best player on the team being either Barnes, Koufos or Temple.

There are 3 rookie 1st rounders on the roster but none have earned any minutes and only one (Skal) currently shows the potential of ever being more than a rotation guy but he's probably got about the same odds of being a non-factor or bust.

Cauley-Stein can't rebound and has an inconsistent motor. Stauskas was already dealt to Philly for caproom. McLemore is at the end of his rookie deal and will likely leave as a free agent when (hopefully) the Kings decline to match an offer from another team gambling that they can tap into Ben's "untapped potential".

This roster is mediocre to terrible now and poised to get worse. Vlade Divac is the biggest impact free agent the Sacramento Kings have ever signed so while I'm no Rudy Gay fan, there's not much hope of signing a better player in free agency.

They stand a decent chance of losing their pick this year and will definitely lose their pick in 2019. Vlade gambled on building around Cousins on the fly and he lost. The cupboard is now about to be bare and the Kings are still looking like a 28-30 win team.

To me the question of whether Cousins is a real star player who hasn't been given enough help or a good player putting up stats on a bad team has been rendered irrelevant by the roster situation.

IMO the only way the Kings have a shot at a promising future is by trading away the only real chip they have to start a true rebuild. I never wanted to see Cousins traded until this season but now I don't see another path forward.

Of course a rebuild relies on hitting on a player or two in the lottery and if the Kings had been able to do that in the last six years the team wouldn't be where it is now anyway.

Not a lot of sunshine to be found in Kingsland these days.

Good post. My question is, based on the performance of this FO in the Divac era, what is your confidence level that he could trade Cousins and Gay for assets and picks and then get something valuable from those picks and assets? 100%? 95%? 50%? Or less? As I said on another post, I have no confidence in Divac's talent evaluation ability, either in the draft or in the NBA. There is no evidence that I can see that provides such confidence. Does Vlade need to go? Or, does Vlade need to hire a legit personnel guy to whom he totally give the reins for the draft and trades and FA? After all, Vlade's first title was as the President of the Kings organization. His GM duties seem to have evolved from that. Maybe Vlade can devote himself to hiring a guy who knows talent and then confine himself to organizational and PR matters of the Kings. For me, it's either do the diplomatic hand-off to a legit personnel guy, or Vlade needs to go.

 

[Bricklayer]

Good post. My question is, based on the performance of this FO in the Divac era, what is your confidence level that he could trade Cousins and Gay for assets and picks and then get something valuable from those picks and assets? 100%? 95%? 50%? Or less? As I said on another post, I have no confidence in Divac's talent evaluation ability, either in the draft or in the NBA. There is no evidence that I can see that provides such confidence. Does Vlade need to go? Or, does Vlade need to hire a legit personnel guy to whom he totally give the reins for the draft and trades and FA? After all, Vlade's first title was as the President of the Kings organization. His GM duties seem to have evolved from that. Maybe Vlade can devote himself to hiring a guy who knows talent and then confine himself to organizational and PR matters of the Kings. For me, it's either do the diplomatic hand-off to a legit personnel guy, or Vlade needs to go.

Alas, the internet is funny in preserving past opinions, and you had something against Vlade even being hired. Being subsequently in favor of firing him hardly represents some evolution of opinion based on results.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

But we do this all the time as sports fans. We look at a player's numbers and say "we need to get that guy" and then you do go out and get him and it turns out he's not who you thought he was because you weren't actually watching him play. DeMarcus Cousins is the first player I can think of where a lot of NBA fans look at the eye-popping stats and say "I don't care, I still don't want him" -- such is his reputation at this point. Are they all wrong?

You clearly associate with a different type of NBA fan than I do. Outside of this message board, I have never encountered anybody, either in real life or on the internet, who says such things.

You've watched this team play as much as anyone, do you not have any concern about the way DeMarcus is developing right now?

I've already made peace with the fact that the way I prefer to see basketball being played is gone, and it's never coming back, so I don't actually spend a lot of time thinking about how Cousins is developing. He's not going to develop in a way that I would be happy with, because basketball isn't played like that anymore.

 

[hrdboild]

You clearly associate with a different type of NBA fan than I do.... Outside of this message board

Come on, that doesn't even make sense. The only reason we're having this discussion at all is because we both frequent this message board. And I'm not talking about a few outliers either. I don't think there's a single sports fan who hasn't made the mistake of making an assumption about a player based on statistics at least once.

 

[funkykingston]

Good post. My question is, based on the performance of this FO in the Divac era, what is your confidence level that he could trade Cousins and Gay for assets and picks and then get something valuable from those picks and assets? 100%? 95%? 50%? Or less? As I said on another post, I have no confidence in Divac's talent evaluation ability, either in the draft or in the NBA. There is no evidence that I can see that provides such confidence. Does Vlade need to go? Or, does Vlade need to hire a legit personnel guy to whom he totally give the reins for the draft and trades and FA? After all, Vlade's first title was as the President of the Kings organization. His GM duties seem to have evolved from that. Maybe Vlade can devote himself to hiring a guy who knows talent and then confine himself to organizational and PR matters of the Kings. For me, it's either do the diplomatic hand-off to a legit personnel guy, or Vlade needs to go.

Vlade Divac has been GM for two drafts.

In the first he took the guy I wanted, who seemed like an ideal low usage big who was potentially a game changing defensive force whose main weaknesses (offense and rebounding) would be covered by Boogie's strengths. Advanced metrics showed Cauley-Stein's potential impact and while he didn't have star potential, he was a very solid choice on my mind.

While WCS hasn't developed as hoped, I'm not ready to slam the pick. Mudiay has shown flashes but is still putting up horrendous shooting and efficiency numbers. Stanley Johnson just got sent to the D-League. Justise Winslow is nice defensively but hasn't yet shown signs of turning into the player I thought he could be and Frank Kaminsky is still shooting poor percentages while rebounding at an even lower rate than Trill.

Vlade obviously missed on Myles Turner (who I liked a lot predraft) and Devin Booker (who is had pegged as a one dimensional shooter and was really wrong on) and while Turner might be a questionable fit next to Cousins, Booker would have been perfect AND fit a need. So yes, there was a better prospect available but I'm not going over criticize that draft on Divac's part.

This last draft I was amazed that Vlade got the 22nd pick for Belinelli and was onboard with the trade down from 8 for 13, 28 & the rights to Bogdanovic, especially when Chris's was the player from the top 8 left.

That said I was flabbergasted when Adam Silver called Papagiannis' name at 13. Richardson was one of my least favorite prospects. So was Skal but I liked the gamble at 28.

That said, the early returns on this draft as a whole have been awful. Even the picks above #8 have looked underwhelming and if not for Embiid (and possibly Simmons when he returns) this would probably be the worst ROY race since 2000.

Vlade said he tried to trade up for Dunn (who was my favorite prospect but is currently disappointing) but the price was too high. So I have to look at who he took vs who was taken afterward.

Chriss still has potential but even though he's currently a starter he only plays around 10-12 mpg and seems to average more fouls than rebounds. After that? Maker doesn't play, Valentine doesn't look like he can play at the NBA level, Baldwin (who I wanted) isn't even the best rookie PG on the Grizzlies, Poeltl was a terrible fit on the Kings and hasn't shown a ton. Really only Sabonis is a contributor and while he's starting and showing better than expected shooting and good passing he's only putting up 6ppg and 3rpg while not being a post scorer or rim protector.

So right now the jury is out on Vlade's draft acumen. None of this year's rookies are doing anything but they didn't miss on anyone big either and there's three of them on cheap deals (plus potentially Bogdanovic) that might turn out to be something. We'll have to wait and see.

But again, it doesn't matter whether Vlade is a good talent evaluator or not. I don't see another path forward other than a rebuild so you give him a shot and reevaluate next year when the team is still rebuilding anyway.

 

[dude12]

Both Wall and Bledsoe are signed for two more seasons after this one.

I would wait

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Come on, that doesn't even make sense.

What do you mean, it doesn't make sense? I don't interact with NBA fans, who are not Kings Fans, who do not want Cousins on their team. And I don't interact with other Kings Fans outside of KingsFans.com. What part of that doesn't make sense?

I don't think there's a single sports fan who hasn't made the mistake of making an assumption about a player based on statistics at least once.

What does that have to do with what you asked me? There's a pretty big difference between having a wrong impression about a player based on his stats, and thinking, "Damn what his stats say, I still don't want him!"

 

[206Fan]

Vlade Divac has been GM for two drafts.

In the first he took the guy I wanted, who seemed like an ideal low usage big who was potentially a game changing defensive force whose main weaknesses (offense and rebounding) would be covered by Boogie's strengths. Advanced metrics showed Cauley-Stein's potential impact and while he didn't have star potential, he was a very solid choice on my mind.

While WCS hasn't developed as hoped, I'm not ready to slam the pick. Mudiay has shown flashes but is still putting up horrendous shooting and efficiency numbers. Stanley Johnson just got sent to the D-League. Justise Winslow is nice defensively but hasn't yet shown signs of turning into the player I thought he could be and Frank Kaminsky is still shooting poor percentages while rebounding at an even lower rate than Trill.

Vlade obviously missed on Myles Turner (who I liked a lot predraft) and Devin Booker (who is had pegged as a one dimensional shooter and was really wrong on) and while Turner might be a questionable fit next to Cousins, Booker would have been perfect AND fit a need. So yes, there was a better prospect available but I'm not going over criticize that draft on Divac's part.

This last draft I was amazed that Vlade got the 22nd pick for Belinelli and was onboard with the trade down from 8 for 13, 28 & the rights to Bogdanovic, especially when Chris's was the player from the top 8 left.

That said I was flabbergasted when Adam Silver called Papagiannis' name at 13. Richardson was one of my least favorite prospects. So was Skal but I liked the gamble at 28.

That said, the early returns on this draft as a whole have been awful. Even the picks above #8 have looked underwhelming and if not for Embiid (and possibly Simmons when he returns) this would probably be the worst ROY race since 2000.

Vlade said he tried to trade up for Dunn (who was my favorite prospect but is currently disappointing) but the price was too high. So I have to look at who he took vs who was taken afterward.

Chriss still has potential but even though he's currently a starter he only plays around 10-12 mpg and seems to average more fouls than rebounds. After that? Maker doesn't play, Valentine doesn't look like he can play at the NBA level, Baldwin (who I wanted) isn't even the best rookie PG on the Grizzlies, Poeltl was a terrible fit on the Kings and hasn't shown a ton. Really only Sabonis is a contributor and while he's starting and showing better than expected shooting and good passing he's only putting up 6ppg and 3rpg while not being a post scorer or rim protector.

So right now the jury is out on Vlade's draft acumen. None of this year's rookies are doing anything but they didn't miss on anyone big either and there's three of them on cheap deals (plus potentially Bogdanovic) that might turn out to be something. We'll have to wait and see.

But again, it doesn't matter whether Vlade is a good talent evaluator or not. I don't see another path forward other than a rebuild so you give him a shot and reevaluate next year when the team is still rebuilding anyway.

Honestly, the fact that nobody in this rookie class outside of maybe 5 guys have shown any level of competence, makes me a lot more ok with Vlade's draft selections (still not a fan of it).

Still would've preferred he draft at least 1 guy who would be able to contribute for our team immediately though.

Vlade did a great job getting Belinelli for the 22nd overall pick. Trading down from 8 to 13+28 while picking up Bogdanovic was a steal imo. He did a great job acquiring assets, so I don't think anyone should fault him for that.

I've been as critical of Vlade as anyone else, but we have to give him more time than just 2 years. He's an intelligent guy, and he obviously knows that there's a chance we move on from Cousins. He's prepped for that if that move needs to be done.