Kings v. Lakers preseason game (on location)
- Thread starter Double-K
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Same boat on rotations. Joerger has been cheating here sitting guys out. Two many qualified guys, and the amazing thing is they have virtually all done their jobs. Farmer showing how useful he could be today only adds additional pressure.
I think the starters have been pretty well telegraphed:
Koufos
Cousins
Gay
Afflalo
Lawson (to start season)
but there are 8 qualified backups for what is normally only about 4 spots. even if you go 5 deep into the bench, a couple of guys are going to sit. I really don't know what Joerger is going to do.
-- I think Willie has to play because of size. But legitimately based on performance thus far compared to others, it might only be the size.
-- if Willie gets minutes, then only 2 of the 3 of Barnes, Casspi and Tolliver can get minutes.
-- Ben has gotten the backup SG minutes every time over Temple.
-- Farmar today showed that he is still more than good enough to be a 3rd PG, but with Lawson and Collison already here, and the pack of kids eating up the rest of the 15-man roster spaces, how could we keep him?
I think the starters have been pretty well telegraphed:
Koufos
Cousins
Gay
Afflalo
Lawson (to start season)
but there are 8 qualified backups for what is normally only about 4 spots. even if you go 5 deep into the bench, a couple of guys are going to sit. I really don't know what Joerger is going to do.
-- I think Willie has to play because of size. But legitimately based on performance thus far compared to others, it might only be the size.
-- if Willie gets minutes, then only 2 of the 3 of Barnes, Casspi and Tolliver can get minutes.
-- Ben has gotten the backup SG minutes every time over Temple.
-- Farmar today showed that he is still more than good enough to be a 3rd PG, but with Lawson and Collison already here, and the pack of kids eating up the rest of the 15-man roster spaces, how could we keep him?
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They are still part of the roster making Farmar the 16th man. I honestly dont have a clue what Joerger will do when the regular season starts. I thought Tolliver would be the first obvious odd man out but the way he is playing you have to give him minutes. If Cuz is the starting PF and Koufos and WCS are taking C minutes that means one of Barnes or Casspi is the the first odd man out.
Barnes doesn't have to play every night. Casspi probably wants minutes every night. Temple knows he is the swiss army knife.
So the issue is Farmar playing well and Collison's suspension. I Cousins will probably get cut but end up in Reno. Skal might stay with the team while the other rooks go to Reno. I know the amount of roster space you can have changes through the season. Farmar might still be screwed though.
The issue with Temple as your backup PG is that he's not superb at it and you probably want another guy who can handle out there with him. The best option there is probably Matt Barnes, but that cuts into Casspi's minutes when you know Omri is one of your biggest offensive threats off the bench.
I also agree that I'm not sure WCS has earned his minutes. Too many defensive mistakes from him. Ben has earned his minutes though.
So the issue is Farmar playing well and Collison's suspension. I Cousins will probably get cut but end up in Reno. Skal might stay with the team while the other rooks go to Reno. I know the amount of roster space you can have changes through the season. Farmar might still be screwed though.
The issue with Temple as your backup PG is that he's not superb at it and you probably want another guy who can handle out there with him. The best option there is probably Matt Barnes, but that cuts into Casspi's minutes when you know Omri is one of your biggest offensive threats off the bench.
I also agree that I'm not sure WCS has earned his minutes. Too many defensive mistakes from him. Ben has earned his minutes though.
K
Tolliver was late/fumbled on a number of very nifty passes BUT the guy clearly has very high IQ and actually unlike most our former role players actually saw the passes and just was a tad late in executing them.With still the general lack of IQ on the team it's nice to see someone with some making shots and trying to make his teammates better. I was watching WCS closely and despite people complaining about his rebounding tonight I thought he was excellent boxing out.
Based on Preseason I would not be shocked if Tolliver played himself into a starting role without getting starters minutes. Hopfully AT can have a year like Patterson did when he first got traded here and was a excellent shooter/teammate for the 20 or so games in the latter part of the season they are similar players although obviously Patterson is younger/better.
Based on Preseason I would not be shocked if Tolliver played himself into a starting role without getting starters minutes. Hopfully AT can have a year like Patterson did when he first got traded here and was a excellent shooter/teammate for the 20 or so games in the latter part of the season they are similar players although obviously Patterson is younger/better.
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The great thing about some of these bench guys like Tolliver and Temple is that when they do get their PT they don't have the mentality of getting theirs, it's all about team with them. I suspect Barnes, barring injury, plays about 70 games or so or less in an effort to keep him healthy and fresh with his age. Tolliver showed what he can do in this game based on the box score, since I didn't see the ame but he's capable of stretching the floor. Rudy filled up the box score which is nice to see.
The team is so deep, that if they just go out and play hard with full effort on the defensive end, that they can keep up the defensive pressure all game. I can't wait to see them on Tuesday night as that game is televised.
The team is so deep, that if they just go out and play hard with full effort on the defensive end, that they can keep up the defensive pressure all game. I can't wait to see them on Tuesday night as that game is televised.
Props to Tolliver. Not because he went 7-7 from three. But because he came from the strong side and smushed a Mozgov dunk back in his face. I was watching the game through nefarious means which aren't to be spoken around here so the quality wasn't that great. I thought it was initially a strip before Mozgov could get the ball up but it was in fact a clean block. Love the defense so far from this guy because you don't expect it.
Tolliver was brilliant last night. He catches the ball and springs and the ball is gone. A lot of players have to catch it and set and shoot but he was catching and shooting in one motion a la Dirk Notwiski. With Joerger having strong affinity for Barnes, it seems as though the odd mad out of the rotation might be Omri Casspi.
Affalo in the low post is going to great weapon for us. Rudy can go to work down there too. I really like our offense. Keeping the low post area clear is going to give our speed demons (DC and Lawson) lanes to drive and dish or finish.
My other takeaways from last night:
Affalo in the low post is going to great weapon for us. Rudy can go to work down there too. I really like our offense. Keeping the low post area clear is going to give our speed demons (DC and Lawson) lanes to drive and dish or finish.
My other takeaways from last night:
- Willie needs to do a better job of commanding his space in the paint. This goes for rebounds and making himself available to catch the pass. He has to widen his base and clear room early and in anticipation when the guard penetrates or the ball goes up. Too often he is just standing like a dude hanging out on the street corner. That said, he does show bursts of gazelle-like athleticism and timing to make plays. He swatted a shot that did not show up the box score that led to lay-up.
- Ben was +27 in 30 minutes and this was no accident. I have never seen this kid gets his hand on as many deflections. He had three in the first quarter alone that led two turnovers. He made a bad pass and travel but he made up for it with perimeter defense like we have not seen before. I anticipated his increased strength would pay off to allow him to command his space defensively. He lost Clarkson and a back door and let him get clean look on baseline turnaround but overall Joerger has to be happy with what this kid is bringing. This is his Tony Allen, Allen-lite if you will. Fans may looks and see 1-4 FGs and conclude "same old Ben". This is not the same old Ben.
- The Lakers are a terrible team. Luke Walton is bit of a fraud. Deng got a ton of cash and looked invisible. Mosgov got a ton of cash and looked invisible. Randle is nothing special. Just goes left every time. Can't shoot. Russell is super talented but when his outside shot is off, I don't see him being an unselfish passer and he doesn't get deep penetration into the lane. He does have a pretty sweet shot though.
- Affalo can be a bit a black hole but this may be a positive. We need him to be aggressive. We need Boogie's usage to come down. I like Affalo out of the low post because a lot of SGs don't want to defend there.
- Rudy looks slow to me. I don't know. He had a nice stat line and he does have that high release point on his shot that almost no defender can get to, but too often he looks like he is going through the motions to me. Once the season starts, I want to see more defensive intensity for the good of team or his trade value.
- Sorry, I just can't root for Jordan Farmer.
With lineups I think Joerger will feel free to experiment a bit, even into the season. Cousins/Koufos can be a nice setup but against small, mobile and/or perimeter oriented bigs it's asking a lot of those guys on the defensive end.
The lineup to start the year could be:
Lawson
Afflalo
Gay
Tolliver
Cousins
Given the effectiveness of Gay and Afflalo in the post and midrange areas it's not a bad idea to space the floor with a PF that can shoot. For that same reason Casspi could start at PF as well.
There's still a numbers crunch though. If Tolliver starts then Casspi, Cauley-Stein and Koufos could eat up all the frontcourt minutes leaving no place for Barnes.
Joerger has a good problem in that there is almost too much quality depth. The bad part is that unless Casspi is able to thrive in this offense or Collison is moved permanently to the bench, there's not really a guy you look to in terms of leading the second unit, particularly in scoring.
I'm still feeling good about this team though.
The lineup to start the year could be:
Lawson
Afflalo
Gay
Tolliver
Cousins
Given the effectiveness of Gay and Afflalo in the post and midrange areas it's not a bad idea to space the floor with a PF that can shoot. For that same reason Casspi could start at PF as well.
There's still a numbers crunch though. If Tolliver starts then Casspi, Cauley-Stein and Koufos could eat up all the frontcourt minutes leaving no place for Barnes.
Joerger has a good problem in that there is almost too much quality depth. The bad part is that unless Casspi is able to thrive in this offense or Collison is moved permanently to the bench, there's not really a guy you look to in terms of leading the second unit, particularly in scoring.
I'm still feeling good about this team though.
I don't see Tolliver starting. I like Koufos out there aside Cousins to bang inside and keep Boogie from getting foul trouble. Its more than box score with him. Its presence and size and protecting your best player. This has to be priority. You do make a good point on second unit scoring, lacking a focal point. To address this we could see Lawson continue to start once Collison returns, with Darren being a more effective scorer than Lawson, and Lawson being more of pass-first PG for Rudy, Affalo and Boogie with the first team.
This is the starting and second team I envision:
1st:
Lawson
Affalo
Rudy
Boogie
Koufos
2nd:
Darren
Ben
Barnes
Tolliver
Willie
This leaves Omri and Temple on the outside looking in for now, but they will get their chance. Joerger will be able to find minutes for both when foul trouble arises, back-to-backs, spot situations, and desire to keep all his guys engaged. As much as I love Omri, Tolliver has made a bold statement and earned a spot. You cannot deny 7-7.
This is the starting and second team I envision:
1st:
Lawson
Affalo
Rudy
Boogie
Koufos
2nd:
Darren
Ben
Barnes
Tolliver
Willie
This leaves Omri and Temple on the outside looking in for now, but they will get their chance. Joerger will be able to find minutes for both when foul trouble arises, back-to-backs, spot situations, and desire to keep all his guys engaged. As much as I love Omri, Tolliver has made a bold statement and earned a spot. You cannot deny 7-7.
I think some of the bench and even one of the starters will often be determined game to game based on matchups.
I like Cousins & Koufos but they can be a poor pairing some nights and Koufos isn't enough of an offensive force to make teams consistently pay on the other end.
Injuries will also likely play a part.
But right now I'd be hard pressed to say Casspi is the guy that will feel the minutes crunch. If for some reason Joerger doesn't start Koufos or Cauley-Stein with Cousins (going with Tolliver, Barnes or Casspi at the PF spot) I think Willie could be the odd man out.
I like Cousins & Koufos but they can be a poor pairing some nights and Koufos isn't enough of an offensive force to make teams consistently pay on the other end.
Injuries will also likely play a part.
But right now I'd be hard pressed to say Casspi is the guy that will feel the minutes crunch. If for some reason Joerger doesn't start Koufos or Cauley-Stein with Cousins (going with Tolliver, Barnes or Casspi at the PF spot) I think Willie could be the odd man out.
I'll make a fearless prediction: Assuming he stays healthy, Koufos will start every game this year. I will also predict he has a better season than last. His numbers were respectable, but the pace was too fast for him, and he missed too many bunnies. The slower place will improve his efficiency, and he's in superior shape with body fat around 5-6%. The superior conditioning will help him get to his sweet spots, defend vertically, and attack the boards.
Koufos aside Boogie works by process of elimination too. Willie is not ready to start. Tolliver has never been a starter. Omri has not proven to be a starter, either at SF or PF. Rudy is entrenched at SF if he's not traded. Barnes can play PF but he's more of bench spark. It would be nice if Willie built on his rookie season and made compelling case to start, but his rebounding and scoring leave more to be desired. He's too unsure of himself and feeling his way. This has to give Joerger pause.
The biggest variable of all though is giving Boogie assistance down low so he's not always the last line of resistance on defense. And so he can be moved off the toughest match-up down low to avoid early fouls. Let Koufos pick up some of this responsibility, so Boogie is fresh for crunch time.
The counterargument is there is not enough mobility between Boogie and Koufos to defend on perimeter. One, let the opposition play small and lets see them match up with us. Two, Joerger asks the big to show on pick and roll to give time for guard to get over the pick. He's not asking for his big to switch onto smaller offensive player. Showing and rotating back is what is required. Both Koufos and Cousins have gotten themselves into good enough condition to do this.
The other counterargument is Koufos does not give us scoring compared to Omri or Tolliver. This is true but with Affalo, Rudy, Cousins, our 1st, 2nd and 3rd scoring options are set. We need dirty work, hustle, rebounds, interior defense, smart play from other starter, not more points. I can't say with 100% certainty this is how it will play out, but I am fairly confident this is Joerger's general thought process.
Koufos aside Boogie works by process of elimination too. Willie is not ready to start. Tolliver has never been a starter. Omri has not proven to be a starter, either at SF or PF. Rudy is entrenched at SF if he's not traded. Barnes can play PF but he's more of bench spark. It would be nice if Willie built on his rookie season and made compelling case to start, but his rebounding and scoring leave more to be desired. He's too unsure of himself and feeling his way. This has to give Joerger pause.
The biggest variable of all though is giving Boogie assistance down low so he's not always the last line of resistance on defense. And so he can be moved off the toughest match-up down low to avoid early fouls. Let Koufos pick up some of this responsibility, so Boogie is fresh for crunch time.
The counterargument is there is not enough mobility between Boogie and Koufos to defend on perimeter. One, let the opposition play small and lets see them match up with us. Two, Joerger asks the big to show on pick and roll to give time for guard to get over the pick. He's not asking for his big to switch onto smaller offensive player. Showing and rotating back is what is required. Both Koufos and Cousins have gotten themselves into good enough condition to do this.
The other counterargument is Koufos does not give us scoring compared to Omri or Tolliver. This is true but with Affalo, Rudy, Cousins, our 1st, 2nd and 3rd scoring options are set. We need dirty work, hustle, rebounds, interior defense, smart play from other starter, not more points. I can't say with 100% certainty this is how it will play out, but I am fairly confident this is Joerger's general thought process.
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The worry shouldnt really be about Koufos, defensively he can hold his own against pretty much any center in the league. The question will be how will Cousins handle having to guard 4's or Koufos having to guard 4's. Also can we make the small teams pay on the other end. Ideally WCS is the guy you want because he can guard mobile 4's. Tolliver has also looked solid on defense from what I have seen.
I like your lineups except I would potentially swap out Tolliver for Casspi.
I agree with the rationale for Lawson to be paired with the Boogie and Rudy unit for passing though. With that said, with Ben's newly developed defensive game and his need for quality passing (to prevent him ever dribbling a basketball), I'd put him in the starting unit. Plus, moving Afflalo to the bench ensures that there are two players who can create their own offense.
Therefore:
Lawson
McLemore
Gay
Cousins
Koufos
Collison
Afflalo
Casspi
Barnes/Tolliver
Cauley-Stein
I agree with the rationale for Lawson to be paired with the Boogie and Rudy unit for passing though. With that said, with Ben's newly developed defensive game and his need for quality passing (to prevent him ever dribbling a basketball), I'd put him in the starting unit. Plus, moving Afflalo to the bench ensures that there are two players who can create their own offense.
Therefore:
Lawson
McLemore
Gay
Cousins
Koufos
Collison
Afflalo
Casspi
Barnes/Tolliver
Cauley-Stein
I mean, having too many good players sure beats having a big man rotation of Boogie and Jason Thompson and an utterly ineffective Chuck Hayes to start the season. (It also on that account beats having the spectacular power forward diarrhea buffet of Mikki Moore, Sheldon Williams, Kenny Thomas, Justin Williams, and Zombie SAR that once graced our roster for the better part of two years nearly a decade ago... Oh god, we've been horrible for soooo long...)
