Can Kings coach Dave Joerger break DeMarcus Cousins' bad habits?

[Kingsfan23]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/new...se-breakdown-trade/14ker8r7sx0tf1ovzqs1ztgtqr

I think this article really gets to the heart of Cousins being underutilized under Karl

"This is where Joerger comes in. Last season, Gasol and Randolph were among the regular rotation players who used the highest percentage of their offensive possessions on post-ups. For Gasol, post-ups accounted for 40.7 percent of his possessions. For Randolph, it was 36.2 percent.

For Cousins? It was a mere 19.6 percent.

That’s a waste, because no center with more than 200 possessions in the post was more efficient than Cousins last year — he averaged 0.96 points per possession. He shot 49.4 percent from the field as a post-up man and, most important, drew fouls on 24.8 percent of his plays. That’s the highest rate in the league. Get Cousins in the post and there’s a good chance you’re going to either get a bucket or put pressure on opposing big men by getting them to foul".

 

[PurpleHaze]

I want to hear chants of "MVP!" "MVP!" "MVP!" mid-season at Golden One Center. Then I'll know Joerger has it exactly right with DMC dealing dangerous from the high post like he should have been all along. Plus, no cheap fouls big guy! Stay on the court and no telling what incredible "MVP" numbers can be put up - points, assists, rebounds, etc.

 

[gunks]

But I thought Cuz is sloppy and inefficient in the post? Quick, someone find blob!

I remember numerous quotes from Boogie early on in the Malone season, where he seemed to relish being a bruiser on offense. I also remember him fouling out entire frontcourts.

Should be fun if Joerger can get Cuz back in the paint AND get everyone to scrap and defend. He was a great coaching pick up by Vlade.

 

[ElRey]

But I thought Cuz is sloppy and inefficient in the post? Quick, someone find blob!

I remember numerous quotes from Boogie early on in the Malone season, where he seemed to relish being a bruiser on offense. I also remember him fouling out entire frontcourts.

Should be fun if Joerger can get Cuz back in the paint AND get everyone to scrap and defend. He was a great coaching pick up by Vlade.

I like the idea of fouling out entire frontcourts!

 

[Big Cuz 15]

I like the idea of fouling out entire frontcourts!

thats what he was doing under malone. so much idiocy from former regime

 

[pshn80]

Your question. I expect great improvement in the play of the Kings this season.

 

[kingsboi]

If not Joerger, then who? I have the utmost faith that Joerger will do all he can in order to help DeMarcus succeed and have his play result in wins and not just cool stats anymore. Those days are hopefully in the rear view, Joerger being a real dude also helps especially with a personality such as DeMarcus, he will have his back and let him know when he messes up and that will pay big dividends.

 

[Bricklayer]

It will be interesting to see how starting Koufos next to him, if that does indeed hold, effects things.

One the one hand, over the years it has been very noticeable that Boogie has a plan for such things: big lumbering center = take him outside. Smaller/weaker center = into the post. And he has just killed most PFs in the post (with the notable exception of a guy like David Lee, randomly). So if you could start Boogie at PF and actually get him guarded by PFs...he's a monster. Just overwhelming and nearly unstoppable for most PFs in this tweener age.

On the other hand, Koufos is not a huge offensive threat, and maybe not enough to force other teams to guard him with their center. They might be able to hide their PF on him. And maybe that was some of what the WCS Summer League failure was about finding -- a second big with post scoring ability to make it a conundrum for defenses. But Koufos is just not prolific enough. Willie is just not an offensive player. And Skal, one day, despite post ability, will be an obvious candidate to be guarded by PFs. And if the thought was Papa could be that guy, that was a bad misreading of his simple pick and roll skillset.

In order to truly free Boogie to feast on smaller/weaker PFs we might still need to acquire a second posting big man, in an era when there aren't many of the breed. Of course several of the breed are indeed out there and currently available -- say hello to Boogie/Monroe or Boogie/Okafor twin tower sets -- but they bring defensive issues with them.

 

[Bricklayer]

If not Joerger, then who? I have the utmost faith that Joerger will do all he can in order to help DeMarcus succeed and have his play result in wins and not just cool stats anymore. Those days are hopefully in the rear view, Joerger being a real dude also helps especially with a personality such as DeMarcus, he will have his back and let him know when he messes up and that will pay big dividends.

Boogie's +/- stats the last few years have been enormous, regardless of coach. We in fact have actually been a winning team during his minutes on court. Implying the stats are empty is ridiculous. There are fewer than 10 guys in the league who have had a larger impact on their teams winning. He's meant more to us winning than Anthony Davis has to New Orleans., than Paul George has to Indiana, then Blake has to the Clippers, or Leonard has to the Spurs.

The problem has been everything else. The minute he has left the floor or missed a game everything has fallen apart. Now Boogie actually going form mere superstar +/- numbers to full LeBron/Curry +/- numbers is certainly one way to try to force the team to win, and get Boogie into the HOF at the same time. But rather than expecting him to go full Top 3 player, it might be an easier path to just expect the team this year to look like a group of professional basketball players worthy of the name when he is off the floor. They don't have to win those minutes. Just don't lose them. That's all it would take for us to be a good team. In fact is the normal pattern for good teams. Good teams don't have stars who make any more impact than Cuz does. They just have lineups that could go .500 even if those stars don't play. Then when the star does play, the .500 team gets the stars big boost and boom, they win 50. With Cuz, the team without him has been basically a 15 win team. He gives them the big star boost, and they still only win 30. He misses time with injury, they don't even get that.

 

[kingsboi]

Boogie's +/- stats the last few years have been enormous, regardless of coach. We in fact have actually been a winning team during his minutes on court. Implying the stats are empty is ridiculous. There are fewer than 10 guys in the league who have had a larger impact on their teams winning. He's meant more to us winning than Anthony Davis has to New Orleans., than Paul George has to Indiana, then Blake has to the Clippers, or Leonard has to the Spurs.

The problem has been everything else. The minute he has left the floor or missed a game everything has fallen apart. Now Boogie actually going form mere superstar +/- numbers to full LeBron/Curry +/- numbers is certainly one way to try to force the team to win, and get Boogie into the HOF at the same time. But rather than expecting him to go full Top 3 player, it might be an easier path to just expect the team this year to look like a group of professional basketball players worthy of the name when he is off the floor. They don't have to win those minutes. Just don't lose them. That's all it would take for us to be a good team. In fact is the normal pattern for good teams. Good teams don't have stars who make any more impact than Cuz does. They just have lineups that could go .500 even if those stars don't play. Then when the star does play, the .500 team gets the stars big boost and boom, they win 50. With Cuz, the team without him has been basically a 15 win team. He gives them the big star boost, and they still only win 30. He misses time with injury, they don't even get that.

I'm not arguing that this team is heavily reliant on Cousins being on the court, rightfully so, he is a star player, no team in the league can win without their best player. I simply mentioned his stats as empty because they did not result in wins, no where did I blame that on him, I'm just stating what I see from my own point of view. It's the circumstances and players he has been surrounded with, but until that turns around, they are just stats IMO.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not arguing that this team is heavily reliant on Cousins being on the court, rightfully so, he is a star player, no team in the league can win without their best player. I simply mentioned his stats as empty because they did not result in wins, no where did I blame that on him, I'm just stating what I see from my own point of view. It's the circumstances and players he has been surrounded with, but until that turns around, they are just stats IMO.

Its not really a point of view thing though. We have the numbers. It would be a bit like saying my point of view was that DeMarcus wasn't a good rebounder.

The fact is his numbers DO and HAVE translated into wins. More wins than all but a handful of guys in the league. He's basically been a walking +15-20 wins a season for us. That's enormous. The only thing muting those wins have been the injuries.

 

[206Fan]

If preseason and this offseason tells us anything, it seems like Cuz will be at the top of the key a lot this season.

So I don't feel like this "habit" will be broken off. Maybe the Kings will look to exploit that? Not sure at all. However, I do know that Cuz will probably be in the key/high post a lot this season. Maybe just as much as last season...

 

[LA King Fan II]

Cousins bad habit is dumb fouls. He reaches, gets in foul trouble, and then gets refs against me chip on his shoulder that deters from his talents.

That's it. Stop.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

thats what he was doing under malone. so much idiocy from former regime

I hate to break this to you, but Cousins attempted 8.4 free throws per game under Malone, and 9.9 free throws per game under Karl.

Minor correction: The 9.9 number is actually Karl + Corbin combined. My mistake on the calculation. Since Cousins attempted 10.2 free throws per game last season under Karl it is likely that his cumulative total under Karl was in fact slightly higher than 9.9 per game.

 

[sono]

Cousins bad habit is dumb fouls. He reaches, gets in foul trouble, and then gets refs against me chip on his shoulder that deters from his talents.

That's it. Stop.

To me his reaching/cheap fouls were mostly due to lackluster defensive efforts from his teammates. I hope he breaks his bad habit with more defense-oriented players around him.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

I hate to break this to you, but Cousins attempted 8.4 free throws per game under Malone, and 9.9 free throws per game under Karl. b

Minor correction: The 9.9 number is actually Karl + Corbin combined. My mistake on the calculation. Since Cousins attempted 10.2 free throws per game last season under Karl it is likely that his cumulative total under Karl was in fact slightly higher than 9.9 per game.

my eyes tell me he was out on the perimeter and not on the block doing damage

 

[Capt. Factorial]

my eyes tell me he was out on the perimeter and not on the block doing damage

Yet the free throw numbers suggest he was drawing more fouls.

 

[King Baller]

Yet the free throw numbers suggest he was drawing more fouls.

As BC15 mentioned it failed the eye test. At least compared to the very early pre-malone-firing games of 2015-16. I know it was a small sample size. In those game the fouls seemed to be concentrated on the other teams key Big Men. Certainly the fouls last year did not translate to wins because of the Karl coached defensive strategy carried out by Karl chosen rotations.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

As BC15 mentioned it failed the eye test. At least compared to the very early pre-malone-firing games of 2015-16. I know it was a small sample size. In those game the fouls seemed to be concentrated on the other teams key Big Men. Certainly the fouls last year did not translate to wins because of the Karl coached defensive strategy carried out by Karl chosen rotations.

That's part of the problem with the eye test - it's easy to see what you want to see. Around here there's a sizable faction that puts Malone up on one hell of a pedestal and acts as if Karl was the worst thing that ever happened, which is all a bit silly to me. But because of that you get stuff like this where the narrative "has to" trump the numbers - as if all those extra fouls Cousins was drawing under Karl were by point guards or something.

For what it's worth, under Malone in the '15-'16 season before he was fired, Cousins attempted 8.3 free throws per game - no different than his overall 8.4 per game under Malone.

 

[funkykingston]

That's part of the problem with the eye test - it's easy to see what you want to see. Around here there's a sizable faction that puts Malone up on one hell of a pedestal and acts as if Karl was the worst thing that ever happened, which is all a bit silly to me. But because of that you get stuff like this where the narrative "has to" trump the numbers - as if all those extra fouls Cousins was drawing under Karl were by point guards or something.

For what it's worth, under Malone in the '15-'16 season before he was fired, Cousins attempted 8.3 free throws per game - no different than his overall 8.4 per game under Malone.

It's also a question of pace. What were the number of FT attempts per 100 possessions in each case?

Cousins definitely got to the line under Karl. Much more often on drivescto the hoop rather than making a move in the post but fouled nonetheless.

In Karl's 1.5 seasons Cousins put up big numbers and expanded his game. No doubt about that. And one of the criticisms with Malone was that he got the team to buy in on defense (especially in that short second season) but his offense was very vanilla.

The hope with Joerger is that he implements a strong defensive scheme but also optimizes the offense. Not necessarily putting up as many points as under Karl but an offense that maximizes Cousins' skill set.

The great thing about a highly successful minor league coach like Joerger is that he's had to be flexible/adaptable and he's learned to get his team's up to speed quickly and effectively.

 

[dude12]

I'm still amazed by how some people won't acknowledge the crappy job that Karl did and the progress Malone was making when he got canned. Stats are important but can be misleading and probably the same can be said of the eye test but in this case, save the stats. Karl was a complete failure here on every level. Your dominant big man in the paint is smart, putting him on the 3 point line for most of the game is asinine.

 

[LPKingsFan]

It's also a question of pace. What were the number of FT attempts per 100 possessions in each case?

I wondered the same thing and took a quick look this morning. I'm pretty sure FT attempts were still higher under Karl, even controlling for pace.

 

[Telemachus]

If preseason and this offseason tells us anything, it seems like Cuz will be at the top of the key a lot this season.

So I don't feel like this "habit" will be broken off. Maybe the Kings will look to exploit that? Not sure at all. However, I do know that Cuz will probably be in the key/high post a lot this season. Maybe just as much as last season...

The problem is that Cousins wasn't in the high post or low post much last season. He was usually starting out at the 3 point line. It is almost impossible to post up when starting out there; however, it is fairly easy to transition into the low post when starting in the high post.

 

[Bricklayer]

I wondered the same thing and took a quick look this morning. I'm pretty sure FT attempts were still higher under Karl, even controlling for pace.

More minutes under Karl too, but FT/100 still works out:

2013-14: 13.2 (all Malone)
2014-15: 13.5 (the three coaches)
2015-16: 14.2 (all Karl)

Now of course given DeMarcus was 23, 24, 25 during those years, there is some chance its natural development, not to mention emerging superstar respect. And given that Karl had him running in from the 3pt line, there's also the real chance that Cuz's 14.2 would be more widely distributed across a variety of opponents, from guards to forwards to centers, while the 13.2 in 2013-14 was likely concentrated on just the centers guarding him.

 

[Blob]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/new...se-breakdown-trade/14ker8r7sx0tf1ovzqs1ztgtqr

I think this article really gets to the heart of Cousins being underutilized under Karl

"This is where Joerger comes in. Last season, Gasol and Randolph were among the regular rotation players who used the highest percentage of their offensive possessions on post-ups. For Gasol, post-ups accounted for 40.7 percent of his possessions. For Randolph, it was 36.2 percent.

For Cousins? It was a mere 19.6 percent.

That’s a waste, because no center with more than 200 possessions in the post was more efficient than Cousins last year — he averaged 0.96 points per possession. He shot 49.4 percent from the field as a post-up man and, most important, drew fouls on 24.8 percent of his plays. That’s the highest rate in the league. Get Cousins in the post and there’s a good chance you’re going to either get a bucket or put pressure on opposing big men by getting them to foul".

Classic misinterpretation of stats. A lot of the 200+ possessions were rim-runs where Rondo threw the ball ahead before the defense was set...this is when and where Cousins gained an advantage contributing prominently to his 0.96 PPP. You cannot conclude based on this strategy that Boogie belongs in the low post in half court sets, because if you subtract out the early offense, his efficiency out of the low post will plummet dramatically.

Your contention that "this is where Joerger comes in" remains to be seen given the fact he has instituted a high post offense, one I firmly believe will maximize Boogie's skill set and strongly advocate. The problem last year was not Karl's system, it was lack of constraint on Boogie. His usage was too high. The wealth was not spread. This was the problem more so than Boogie not getting enough low post touches.

There's going to be times when Boogie abuses defenders in the low post, and that is going to occur selectively with early offense and when he has a size mismatch. Otherwise, he's at his best with a live dribble facing the hoop. But don't take my word for it. Just look at the system a very good (to great) coach has implemented and watch how the season unfolds.

 

[Blob]

The problem is that Cousins wasn't in the high post or low post much last season. He was usually starting out at the 3 point line. It is almost impossible to post up when starting out there; however, it is fairly easy to transition into the low post when starting in the high post.

Its untrue Boogie was usually starting out the three point line. Boogie's three point shots came often because he was the trailer up the court, the 10th of 10 players, and was given license to shoot. I think he passes up this shot more often this year. The offensive play sets last year were designed for him to set a pick around the top of the key or closer and play two-man with Rondo. It is to the offensive teams advantage to initiate the pick and roll closer to the hoop (20 feet and in) because it makes it easier for the ball handler to get to the rim or the roller to get to the hoop. It also opens up passing angles when help defenders have to collapse.

I guess what I don't understand (by you and others) is why is Joerger's high post offense not being criticized? Don't you want Boogie in the low post? I don't think he belongs there. I think he's poised to have his best season ever. But there's a logical inconsistency by those who slammed Karl last year for playing Boogie away from low post and those advocating Joerger's intention to do the same.

 

[gunks]

High post =/= hovering beyond the 3pt line.

 

[Blob]

High post =/= hovering beyond the 3pt line.

(1) Boogie hovering beyond the three point line wasn't Karl's offense, that was Boogie being the last man up the floor and (2) point to me where fans advocated playing Boogie out of the high post (besides myself)?

 

[Bricklayer]

(1) Boogie hovering beyond the three point line wasn't Karl's offense, that was Boogie being the last man up the floor and (2) point to me where fans advocated playing Boogie out of the high post (besides myself)?

That was Karl's offense.

Stated.

In fact missing that is missing the whole concept of the "dribble drive offense", which is a basic spacing offense that wants EVERYBODY outside the three point line to keep the rim open, then take turns to "dribble drive" to the rim. George Karl has no idea what to do with a center. He'd never had one before, unless you want to count 1 year of Joe Barely Cares 30 years ago. So he treated him like a SF.

 

[Section 101]

That's part of the problem with the eye test - it's easy to see what you want to see. Around here there's a sizable faction that puts Malone up on one hell of a pedestal and acts as if Karl was the worst thing that ever happened, which is all a bit silly to me. But because of that you get stuff like this where the narrative "has to" trump the numbers - as if all those extra fouls Cousins was drawing under Karl were by point guards or something.

For what it's worth, under Malone in the '15-'16 season before he was fired, Cousins attempted 8.3 free throws per game - no different than his overall 8.4 per game under Malone.

It wasn't how Karl managed Cuz, it was everyone else that he screwed up.