What's Your Preferred Starting Lineup?

[Bricklayer]

I guess it really depends on what (or who) you mean by "talent"

One of Afflalo/Gay has to play with the 2nd unit assuming no trades/legit signings imo

Neither guy has any interest in that. In fact Afflalo's meltdown last year was over precisely that issue.

I continue to think though that we are probably going to do something with Rudy and Ben here in the next few weeks. We still have some holes.

Cousins
Koufos
(Papa to Reno)

Cauley Stein
Tolliver
Skal?

Barnes
Casspi
Rudy

Afflalo
McLemore?
Richardson?
Patterson?

Collison
Temple?
(Cousins to Reno)

 

[twslam07]

Neither guy has any interest in that. In fact Afflalo's meltdown last year was over precisely that issue.

I continue to think though that we are probably going to do something with Rudy and Ben here in the next few weeks. We still have some holes.

Cousins
Koufos
(Papa to Reno)

Cauley Stein
Tolliver
Skal?

Barnes
Casspi
Rudy

Afflalo
McLemore?
Richardson?
Patterson?

Collison
Temple?
(Cousins to Reno)

It had more to do with the lack of communication/miscommunication when moving him to the bench rather than the act itself.

 

[Bricklayer]

It had more to do with the lack of communication/miscommunication when moving him to the bench rather than the act itself.

No, not really.

Afflalo was pretty clear about I AM A STARTER, and making a fuss about it at every turn. Just pretty much quit. And after 7 years of starting, and 479 starts in his last I think it was 486 games before the New York benching, its no wonder he was so vehement. Not admirable, but predictable.

I seriously don't think there's really an option there. And frankly I think we may have gotten so used to getting absolutely nothing out of our SG offensively ever since the newbie dips thought they had won the lottery with Ben, that we now view a guy who averages 12-13 points as some awful offensive clogging extravagance. But his shooting will help create space.

Only real hope of getting another roleplayer in the starting lineup would be if we move Rudy. But then if that left Collison and Afflalo as your #2/#3 weapons you are hitting critical on the punchless scale.

 

[twslam07]

No, not really.

Afflalo was pretty clear about I AM A STARTER, and making a fuss about it at every turn. Just pretty much quit. And after 7 years of starting, and 479 starts in his last I think it was 486 games before the New York benching, its no wonder he was so vehement. Not admirable, but predictable.

I seriously don't think there's really an option there. And frankly I think we may have gotten so used to getting absolutely nothing out of our SG offensively ever since the newbie dips thought they had won the lottery with Ben, that we now view a guy who averages 12-13 points as some awful offensive clogging extravagance. But his shooting will help create space.

Only real hope of getting another roleplayer in the starting lineup would be if we move Rudy. But then if that left Collison and Afflalo as your #2/#3 weapons you are hitting critical on the punchless scale.

Yes, really.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/29/arron-afflalos-knicks-future-clouds-with-kurt-rambis-rift/
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/k...ies-kurt-rambis-claim-of-demotion-discussion/

Afflalo added interim coach Kurt Rambis had not spoken with him to explain the move to start veteran Sasha Vujacic, who has had a poor season. Rambis said Afflalo’s assertion isn’t true.

“I’ve already done that,’’ Rambis said. “Of course.”

Did Afflalo have a memory lapse?

“It wasn’t that long ago,’’ Rambis said. “Of course that conversation was had.’’

“There’s no breakdown in communication,” Afflalo said Wednesday. “We never had the communication. …I don’t know why he would say there was a conversation.”

Sure spacing would be good (and it would still be good with Temple), but then you're falling into that "no defense, all offense" mentality that has gotten us into trouble the past decade.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not sure why you think those articles support the idea that this was a communication issue. They really don't.

I was right here on top of it. The two never got along from the start. Rambis dumps him, Afflalo basically says f u. Then Rambis claimed they talked, Afflalo says they didn't. But regardless, the talking wasn't the issue. The issue was that Afflalo believed that he absolutely should be starting over Sasha Vujevic (shocker).

I don't know what Joerger's persuasive powers are like, but I do know that Afflalo signed here with the idea he would start, and that he's likely a short timer, so benching him could directly effect his post Kings future. Just not worth it.

As an aside, for some years now we've won the game while Boogie was on the floor. No matter what crap we put around him, he alone is enough that we win his minutes. Where we've always fallen completely apart is when he leaves. I'm not worried about Afflalo replacing Ben making us lose the game while the starters are out there. I am however more than a little concerned that there is no firepower off the bench, and Joerger may be planning to make Temple a full time backup PG.

 

[twslam07]

I'm not sure why you think those articles support the idea that this was a communication issue. They really don't.

I was right here on top of it. The two never got along from the start. Rambis dumps him, Afflalo basically says f u. Then Rambis claimed they talked, Afflalo says they didn't. But regardless, the talking wasn't the issue. The issue was that Afflalo believed that he absolutely should be starting over Sasha Vujevic (shocker).

I don't know what Joerger's persuasive powers are like, but I do know that Afflalo signed here with the idea he would start, and that he's likely a short timer, so benching him could directly effect his post Kings future. Just not worth it.

As an aside, for some years now we've won the game while Boogie was on the floor. No matter what crap we put around him, he alone is enough that we win his minutes. Where we've always fallen completely apart is when he leaves. I'm not worried about Afflalo replacing Ben making us lose the game while the starters are out there. I am however more than a little concerned that there is no firepower off the bench, and Joerger may be planning to make Temple a full time backup PG.

No, they really do. Miscommunication & lack of communication is right there in front of you. You can choose to ignore it if you'd like to. It doesn't make you right. Am I saying that Afflalo doesn't think he should start over Sasha? No, but if there's communication from the coach about why he wants him coming off the bench, it makes things go over much smoother.

Why are we sooo concerned with the future of a player that hasn't helped his team win in some time now? He's a stopgap, and he's best suited off the bench for countless reasons.

So since we win with Boogie on the floor, we don't want to maximize how good we can be? That's ridiculous. What's the old saying? Good is the enemy of great?

Funny you mention a lack of firepower off the bench...Afflalo anyone?

 

[Iced Espresso]

I'm not sure why you think those articles support the idea that this was a communication issue. They really don't.

I was right here on top of it. The two never got along from the start. Rambis dumps him, Afflalo basically says f u. Then Rambis claimed they talked, Afflalo says they didn't. But regardless, the talking wasn't the issue. The issue was that Afflalo believed that he absolutely should be starting over Sasha Vujevic (shocker).

I don't know what Joerger's persuasive powers are like, but I do know that Afflalo signed here with the idea he would start, and that he's likely a short timer, so benching him could directly effect his post Kings future. Just not worth it.

As an aside, for some years now we've won the game while Boogie was on the floor. No matter what crap we put around him, he alone is enough that we win his minutes. Where we've always fallen completely apart is when he leaves. I'm not worried about Afflalo replacing Ben making us lose the game while the starters are out there. I am however more than a little concerned that there is no firepower off the bench, and Joerger may be planning to make Temple a full time backup PG.

I'd think AA went here because the money was premium, the opportunity premium. He's got to be hoping to get a couple more years of decent cash before he calls it a day, and big minutes (starting) is probably incredibly important to him. Fit seems appropriate in that matter too.

Ideally he does well, we pick up the team option next season, Richardson looks solid and takes it over two years from now.

 

[King Baller]

You don't bring in a Veteran like Afflalo to come off of the bench.

 

[Blob]

Why isn't "none of the above" one of the options?

 

[twslam07]

You don't bring in a Veteran like Afflalo to come off of the bench.

The way you phrase that sentence is insinuating that he is some great player when, in fact, it couldn't be further from the truth.

No defense, scorers are not too hard to find and tend to find a lot more success off the bench.

 

[twslam07]

Why isn't "none of the above" one of the options?

Because "Other" is an option and it serves the exact same purpose as "none of the above." Why would you have both "Other" and "None of the above" as options?

 

[pshn80]

The way you phrase that sentence is insinuating that he is some great player when, in fact, it couldn't be further from the truth.

No defense, scorers are not too hard to find and tend to find a lot more success off the bench.

Not hard to fnd? Why have zeroed out the last three years? For goodness sakes, start Afflalo.

 

[twslam07]

Not hard to fnd? Why have zeroed out the last three years? For goodness sakes, start Afflalo.

Not sure what you mean by "why have zeroed out the last three years."

And yes, I'll repeat myself. They are not hard to find.

I'm seeing a lot of people are in favor of starting Afflalo, but I'm still waiting on the justification.

 

[King Baller]

Not sure what you mean by "why have zeroed out the last three years."

And yes, I'll repeat myself. They are not hard to find.

I'm seeing a lot of people are in favor of starting Afflalo, but I'm still waiting on the justification.

I think the best justification was pointed out. He has started most games during his career. Last season he was doing pretty good for the Knicks until he was benched. All that said if the Kings Coaches think another Player has earned the starting SG spot then start that guy. But judging by past performance I think Afflalo will be the starter. I expect Temple will be the first guard off the bench unless other players are brought in to change the roster.

 

[pshn80]

Not sure what you mean by "why have zeroed out the last three years."

And yes, I'll repeat myself. They are not hard to find.

I'm seeing a lot of people are in favor of starting Afflalo, but I'm still waiting on the justification.

What I meant was - your theory that it is easy to find a scoring SG wasn't true for the Kings the last 3 years.

Justification? Look at the results of your opinion poll.

 

[twslam07]

I think the best justification was pointed out. He has started most games during his career. Last season he was doing pretty good for the Knicks until he was benched. All that said if the Kings Coaches think another Player has earned the starting SG spot then start that guy. But judging by past performance I think Afflalo will be the starter. I expect Temple will be the first guard off the bench unless other players are brought in to change the roster.

Past starts should not be an indicator for future starts, and his teams have been worse with him on the court over the past several years . So how do correct that? Push him to the bench where he will see inferior competition thus helping him contribute wins to this team.

 

[twslam07]

What I meant was - your theory that it is easy to find a scoring SG wasn't true for the Kings the last 3 years.

Justification? Look at the results of your opinion poll.

We're we actively looking for one?

That's not justification. Give me some reasons (or justifications) as to why Afflalo should be started.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

That's not justification. Give me some reasons (or justifications) as to why Afflalo should be started.

Are you just playing some sort of Devil's advocate, or do you really think that Afflalo should not start, given our current roster?

As far as justification goes, there are basically four players on our roster who would normally be considered to start at the 2-guard at the beginning of the season (by the end of the season lineups can and should change if play warrants it):

Afflalo, McLemore, Patterson, Richardson, Temple.

Patterson, with a non-guaranteed contract, probably gets cut after training camp.
Richardson has zero NBA experience and is not remotely ready to start.
McLemore is inferior to Afflalo in basically every way on the basketball court outside of youth and athleticism. McLemore's youth and athleticism haven't done him a lot of good so far. There's no reason to start McLemore over Afflalo.
That leaves Temple. There are at least two reasons to start Afflalo over Temple. First, Afflalo is a much better shooter than Temple. Second, at the moment Temple is basically our only backup at the PG position. He will, at this point, play a lot of minutes with the second unit. If we were to start him, then the rotation would get very awkward because Collison would have to sit early so that Temple could play backup PG before getting his own rest. So Temple is a bad call.

That leaves Afflalo. He is basically the best player we have at SG, he ought to get the most minutes, and the only other reasonable option to start at SG is going to be playing a lot of minutes at another position as the roster is currently constructed.

tl;dr
Afflalo is our best SG. What more justification do we need to propose that he be the starter?

 

[twslam07]

Are you just playing some sort of Devil's advocate, or do you really think that Afflalo should not start, given our current roster?

I really don't think Afflalo should start when we have Temple on the roster.

That leaves Temple. There are at least two reasons to start Afflalo over Temple. First, Afflalo is a much better shooter than Temple.

Nobody is denying that he is a better shooter, but is that really the only reason? I remember our spacing and offense being just fine with Collison, McLemore, & Gay on the perimeter. I don't think we're going to see much of a difference with Temple replacing McLemore. If Rondo was still starting, I can see Afflalo's shooting being a little more important, but with Collison (who is a really good shooter), I don't think the tradeoff is worth it. I'm tired of us prioritizing offense when our offense is just fine. We might as well have kept Belinelli at $6mil a year if we wanted a good shooter/poor defender to start at SG. He's at least $6mil cheaper than Afflalo.

Second, at the moment Temple is basically our only backup at the PG position. He will, at this point, play a lot of minutes with the second unit. If we were to start him, then the rotation would get very awkward because Collison would have to sit early so that Temple could play backup PG before getting his own rest. So Temple is a bad call.

I agree. If by some miracle we decide to go with Temple as our primary backup PG this season, then yeah, he'll need to come off the bench. The offseason is obviously not over and I highly doubt we don't at least make a minor move to bring in a backup PG (as I mentioned in my original thread), but I guess you never know until it actually happens...

That leaves Afflalo. He is basically the best player we have at SG, he ought to get the most minutes, and the only other reasonable option to start at SG is going to be playing a lot of minutes at another position as the roster is currently constructed.

tl;dr
Afflalo is our best SG. What more justification do we need to propose that he be the starter?

First of all, just because you are the best SG, SF, PF, etc. on your team, it doesn't mean you should start. We see this happen on numerous occasions. Balancing the lineups is very important.

Second of all, why do you think Afflalo is our best SG? People keep saying it like it's fact. Why is he better than Temple?

Everything I've pointed out already has shown Temple to be the better player (the player that helps his team win more). And not only does he help his team win more, his game makes sense in the starting lineup and Afflalo's game makes sense off the bench when you consider the rest of our personnel.

 

[ParniValjak]

Not sure what you mean by "why have zeroed out the last three years."

And yes, I'll repeat myself. They are not hard to find.

I'm seeing a lot of people are in favor of starting Afflalo, but I'm still waiting on the justification.

People have given you plenty of justification but you chose to ignore it as you deem it to be not good enough.

Afflalo will and should start. He is the more talented of the shooting guards that is a veteran who has proved more in this league than Temple. Just because someone starts, it does not mean they will finish the game. Bobby Jackson was always coming off the bench for us (unless Bibby was injured) but he was the one always finishing the game.

While Temple's shooting percentage from 3 look pretty good (and I genuinely like him as a signing) he is widely streaky and inconsistent with his shot. We have had a gaping hole at SG spot ever since we decided to let Tyreke Evans walk (and some would argue ever since we traded Kevin Martin) so getting some stability at the position is much needed. Afflalo is someone we are obviously banking on providing that.

I have an issue with people using stats and analytics to make a case for something because it doesn't pass the eye test nor does it prove anything about a player in the system that we will be running. Why are you hell bent on believing that Afflalo in George Karl's system in Denver, or Brian Shaw's system in Denver or even Derek Fishers/Kurt Rambis' system in New York is the identical player that he will be in David Jorger's system in Sacramento.

Afflalo is by far the most skilled of the veteran SGs on the roster and I am sure that Jorger will find the most productive way to use him both offensively and defensively in his system.

Just because Afflalo starts, it doesn't mean that he will spend as much time on the court with all of Cousins, Gay and Collison. I am certain the substitutions will be staggered and a lot of Afflalo's minutes will in fact be with Temple on the court at the same time. Is it really that important on who starts? Good defensive schemes are designed so that teams defend as a team and doesn't rely on having great defenders at every position.

If you are starting Cousins and WCS together, the rest of your starting 5 needs to provide shooting and Afflalo is by far more proven and more consistent from the 3 than Temple.

 

[KingsFan80]

We're we actively looking for one?

That's not justification. Give me some reasons (or justifications) as to why Afflalo should be started.

Because he is literally the only starting SG we have on the roster unless you want to give McLemore another chance. In no way, shape or form should Temple be starting on any NBA team. If he is, that team is going to be in last place. That question makes no sense, that is like the Giants signing Denard Span then someone debating if they should start him, he was signed to start because there is nobody else on the roster.

 

[twslam07]

People have given you plenty of justification but you chose to ignore it as you deem it to be not good enough.

No, I haven't been. The most I have gotten is that he is a better shooter, he has started more games in the past, & he is a better player (this claim has still yet to be proven or at the very least supported)

Afflalo will and should start. He is the more talented of the shooting guards that is a veteran who has proved more in this league than Temple. Just because someone starts, it does not mean they will finish the game. Bobby Jackson was always coming off the bench for us (unless Bibby was injured) but he was the one always finishing the game.

You're confusing talent with helping a team win. Afflalo hasn't been helping much in the latter over the past few seasons.

While Temple's shooting percentage from 3 look pretty good (and I genuinely like him as a signing) he is widely streaky and inconsistent with his shot. We have had a gaping hole at SG spot ever since we decided to let Tyreke Evans walk (and some would argue ever since we traded Kevin Martin) so getting some stability at the position is much needed. Afflalo is someone we are obviously banking on providing that.

Yes, he's a weaker shooter than Afflalo. Nobody is saying that he isn't. Temple's hot spots happen to complement our other players very well. Put Temple in his comfort zone, and you won't see as much inconsistency in his shooting.

One thing that is not streaky with Temple is his defense. It's odd that we call out the streakiness of shooting, but not the streakiness (or I guess "absence" is a better word) of Afflalo's defense. The game takes both offense & defense.

I have an issue with people using stats and analytics to make a case for something because it doesn't pass the eye test nor does it prove anything about a player in the system that we will be running. Why are you hell bent on believing that Afflalo in George Karl's system in Denver, or Brian Shaw's system in Denver or even Derek Fishers/Kurt Rambis' system in New York is the identical player that he will be in David Jorger's system in Sacramento.

Why doesn't it pass the eye test. A good ball handler who doesn't turn it over. He stays out of the way on offense and can hit the three adequately. On the defensive side, he's very good and very versatile. How does that type of player not fit/complement our current starters logically speaking?

To your system point, that's why I mentioned many seasons. He hasn't been very successful under a handful of coaches. Should we be hopeful or realistic? I think it's okay to be both in this case.

Afflalo is by far the most skilled of the veteran SGs on the roster and I am sure that Jorger will find the most productive way to use him both offensively and defensively in his system.

Skilled? Yeah, I don't deny that, but it's the way he uses his skills which seems to limit his impact.

Just because Afflalo starts, it doesn't mean that he will spend as much time on the court with all of Cousins, Gay and Collison. I am certain the substitutions will be staggered and a lot of Afflalo's minutes will in fact be with Temple on the court at the same time. Is it really that important on who starts? Good defensive schemes are designed so that teams defend as a team and doesn't rely on having great defenders at every position.

Yes, it does matter to a certain degree because (for the most part) you're going against that team's go-to options right off the bat. Don't we want to utilized Temple immediately to help prevent those guys from getting hot early? Temple's defense is kind of wasted going against 2nd stringers. No? Afflalo would have a much easier time containing 2nd stringers while also giving him more freedom to score.

If you are starting Cousins and WCS together, the rest of your starting 5 needs to provide shooting and Afflalo is by far more proven and more consistent from the 3 than Temple.

I would agree. The rest of your lineup does need to provide shooting, but Collison, Temple, & Gay all do that.

 

[twslam07]

Because he is literally the only starting SG we have on the roster unless you want to give McLemore another chance. In no way, shape or form should Temple be starting on any NBA team. If he is, that team is going to be in last place. That question makes no sense, that is like the Giants signing Denard Span then someone debating if they should start him, he was signed to start because there is nobody else on the roster.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Big claims with little substance/evidence to back it up.

This does not count as justification in my book.

 

[KingsFan80]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Big claims with little substance/evidence to back it up.

This does not count as justification in my book.

So let me flip this on you---what is the justification for Temple, a lifetime back-up and below average player, to be starting over Affalo or McLemore? If the best starting lineup for this team is Collison and Temple as our backcourt then we are in trouble.

 

[twslam07]

So let me flip this on you---what is the justification for Temple, a lifetime back-up and below average player, to be starting over Affalo or McLemore?

How about you read the entire first page of this thread?

 

[biltalent]

A lot has been already said but nevertheless Id like to throw my thoughts in here.
Let me start by saying that I would be comfortable with Temple starting in a lineup that includes Collison-Rudy-Boogie because his defense would complement them very well. Seems a bit like the OKC lineup with Roberson and they showed how effective this could be. And as we said a million times, defense is whats going to push this team over the top.

But of course there are also arguments against Temple/for Afflalo:
1. The argumentation against Afflalo is built on stats that we don't exactly know how they are calculated. But even if someone releases their formula, to support a conclusion like "Temple helps his team win more than Afflalo" I would first need to see that the reliability and vailidty of said stat has been demonstrated empirically on a scientific level I'm comfortable with. However I am not aware of a study that has done this, but I havent actively looked for it either. Note: This does not mean that the stat is useless. It just means that I cant trust what it says. But nevertheless it gives us a bit of evidence that Temple helps his team win more than Afflalo does. Its just not enough to help me come to a conclusion.

2. In my opinion Afflalo was signed to start and therefore expects to start. Even if Joerger communicates it well I dont think he would be okay with his role. Now this is just my opinion and of course people can differ on it.

To summarize it: If Afflalo is okay with coming of the bench I could see why Temple would fit the starting line up well. However my subjective and therefore maybe wrong opinion is that Afflalo is not okay with it. If that is the case I would be cautious with bringing Affalo of the bench because it might destroy team chemistry and team chemistry is a very important part of winning in my opinion.

Edit: Even if Afflalo starts I could see something like this being a good rotation:
Start the game with Collison-Afflalo-Gay-Wcs-Cousins. Then switch to Collison-Temple-Gay-Wcs-Cousins and bring Afflalo back to lead the bench.

 

[KingMilz]

My ideal line up would be:

PG: DC for obvious reasons he's the only legit PG we have
SG: Afflalo as a #2 option who likes to isloate
SF: Barnes (assuming he can play like last year), I think Barnes toughness and desire to guard the oppositions best wing and wear them down physically (and at times mentally with his in your face approach) is huge . He shot league average or close 3pt %'s (last 3-4 seasons) while not with Memphis (% plummeted due to him being close to a #1 option with all the injuries) and he's still really elite despite his age at leaking out in transition for easy buckets and EXCELLENT cutting without the ball.
PF: Either WCS or Casspi depending on what style we play I'm fine with either
C: Cousins "HOF per 36/PER/+/-"

therefore the back up unit is
PG:Temple: D and bringing up the ball
SG:Mclemore on his last life or Richardson
SF; Rudy 6th man chucker
PF: Casspi/Tolliver/Skal (if he's somewhat ready develop him right away).
C: WCS/Tolliver

 

[KingsFanGER]

I think Joerger is definately not ruling out McLemore. And in his recent interview he was talking about how Barnes, Casspi, Tolliver, DMC and to a lesser extent even Rudy can play PF, while he mentioned WCS at the center position.
On top of that he hinted that the ability to switch on D and to play multiple matchups is key for him.
So I woulnd't be suprised, when we see something like this:

PG: DC
SG: McLemore
SF: Rudy
PF: Casspi or Barnes
C: DMC

Two guys able to create in isolation. Good spacing. Stellar transition game.

Afflalo as the 6th man to give the bench someone able to create for himself.

 

[ApolloDaGod]

Jason Williams
Mitch Richmond
Predrag Stojakovic
Chris Webber
Demarcus Cousins

 

[The_Jamal]

Rubio
Afflalo
Casspi
WCS
Cousins

We said preferred right? Still an off-chance Minny gives the keys to Dunn from day 1. Sooner or later, they're going to need to do so and getting vet SF help at their weakest position is a decent haul.

With our current team:

DC
Afflalo
Casspi
WCS
Cousins

Casspi is just better at Rudy at both ends. He's not the ISO ball hero, but that's a skill-set that's quickly (and thankfully) dying off in non-elite players.