Rondo to the Bulls
- Thread starter Blob
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I'll tell you why I'm disappointed that we didn't re-sign Rondo.
Because it means he didn't help us win last year.
I loved the idea of giving Rondo a shot as a reclamation project. He looked pretty well recovered from his ACL injury and had never been a guy who relied on athleticism primarily. He's a cerebral player who thinks the game, knows where everyone is and where they should be and delivers passes like few guys in the NBA. He also seemed like the veteran presence that Cousins needed in his ear. A guy he respected greatly and who had a similar temperament but who had been a key piece of a championship team.
But while he led the league in assists and had his best season shooting threes, it didn't translate into the team improving at all.
I'm not upset that Rondo is gone, I'm upset that he didn't give the Kings enough reason to keep him.
Because it means he didn't help us win last year.
I loved the idea of giving Rondo a shot as a reclamation project. He looked pretty well recovered from his ACL injury and had never been a guy who relied on athleticism primarily. He's a cerebral player who thinks the game, knows where everyone is and where they should be and delivers passes like few guys in the NBA. He also seemed like the veteran presence that Cousins needed in his ear. A guy he respected greatly and who had a similar temperament but who had been a key piece of a championship team.
But while he led the league in assists and had his best season shooting threes, it didn't translate into the team improving at all.
I'm not upset that Rondo is gone, I'm upset that he didn't give the Kings enough reason to keep him.
The team actually improved quite a bit, in spite of everything. Until our shutdown/tank we were probably headed for 35-37wins or so. Until the team quit on Karl, .500 looked still possible.
Kings fans last year were blind as a bat as a group. Quite possibly the worst I have seen them, with the possible exception of Webb and Christie's final year. We had a team last year with the talent to beat virtually anybody but the Warriors on any given night and they did just that. This entire current exercise in tearing down is dubious until it proves it isn't. There's a way forward here, but it is going to be so narrow, going to require so much discipline and good luck with health. You give me Joerger with last year's crew, untouched, and I'm betting on 41 wins just from the coach and team not fighting each other. The talent was there. Now we canned the problem coach, but the question will be did we commit yet another massive Kings screw up and create a problem with the roster that we did not need to.
Kings fans last year were blind as a bat as a group. Quite possibly the worst I have seen them, with the possible exception of Webb and Christie's final year. We had a team last year with the talent to beat virtually anybody but the Warriors on any given night and they did just that. This entire current exercise in tearing down is dubious until it proves it isn't. There's a way forward here, but it is going to be so narrow, going to require so much discipline and good luck with health. You give me Joerger with last year's crew, untouched, and I'm betting on 41 wins just from the coach and team not fighting each other. The talent was there. Now we canned the problem coach, but the question will be did we commit yet another massive Kings screw up and create a problem with the roster that we did not need to.
I still can't reconcile you (rightly) being the loudest voice calling for defensive improvement from the Kings for years while also wanting Rondo to return. Only so much blame can go to George Karl's scheme when Rondo was James Harden bad/disinterested on that end of the floor this year.
The team was statistically better offensively and defensively when Rondo wasn't on the floor.
The team was statistically better offensively and defensively when Rondo wasn't on the floor.
I wanted the Kings to keep Curry as the 3rd string PG. I thought he showed well in the minutes he got and was worth keeping around, especially at that price.
But I definitely didn't want to see the Kings commit long term to Rajon Rondo just because they are thin at PG. There's a reason that Rondo apparently got one offer, from one team - an offer that has mutual opt outs after one season. He's not what he was. As Danny Ainge famously said: "The question always was, ‘Is he a good enough player to behave the way he does?'”
It seems the answer to that question has rapidly become no. At least for the vast majority of teams in the NBA as he struggled to find suitors even as arguably the 2nd best PG in this weak FA class. And the fans of the one team that did sign him are overwhelmingly against the move.
But I definitely didn't want to see the Kings commit long term to Rajon Rondo just because they are thin at PG. There's a reason that Rondo apparently got one offer, from one team - an offer that has mutual opt outs after one season. He's not what he was. As Danny Ainge famously said: "The question always was, ‘Is he a good enough player to behave the way he does?'”
It seems the answer to that question has rapidly become no. At least for the vast majority of teams in the NBA as he struggled to find suitors even as arguably the 2nd best PG in this weak FA class. And the fans of the one team that did sign him are overwhelmingly against the move.
I've publicly, on this board, done a much deeper dive than that.
When Cuz and Rondo were both out there together we were flat dangerous.
For whatever reason remove Cuz from the pairing and nothing else with Rondo worked.
And the defense comes down to this: Rondo was once great on that end. Darren Collison never was and never will be. Brandon Jennings never was and never will be. Any number of guys never were and never will be (including actually the two PGs in the NBA Finals last year). But its a bit like Skal -- I will absolutely take the guy with the talent to be great over the guy without the talent to be great. Or in Rondo's case, the talent and knowledge of how to play defense if he gets along with a coach and a superstar and decides its worth it again.
Another guy who played crap defense last year was Afflalo. But again, I am in the market and I can tell anybody looking at the numbers that no, he wasn't a crapty defender. He played crap defense. There is a difference. He started out the season doing ok, Rambis took over, they immediately clashed (Rambis was such a seemingly mild mannered geek hero as a player but seems to be singularly capable of losing his teams as a coach), and after the clash Afflalo decided well if you don't have my back, I'm not laying anything on the line for you and started barely jogging. Afflalo hasn't found it worth his while to lay it out over there in years. But give him a defensive coach... You can potentially resuscitate a guy who played crap defense but knows how to defend. There's nothing you can do for a Jose Calderon who just is a crap defender and never will be any better.
Now there were other issues here. It cost $14 mil a year to get Rondo. We would have had to scrap our roleplayer revolution. But these roleplayers only have a fraction of Rondo's talent. There's a way to make them work, but if they don't, its going to fail spectacularly. There will be no more nights like last year when we were simply the better, more talented team than playoff teams. The grit and grind has to work or dumping our FAs, and potentially Rudy and friends too, is going to be yet another huge talent setback for the franchise that always bleeds what little talent it gets away. And it will cost us Cuz too, just to complete the picture of the next 76ers.
When Cuz and Rondo were both out there together we were flat dangerous.
For whatever reason remove Cuz from the pairing and nothing else with Rondo worked.
And the defense comes down to this: Rondo was once great on that end. Darren Collison never was and never will be. Brandon Jennings never was and never will be. Any number of guys never were and never will be (including actually the two PGs in the NBA Finals last year). But its a bit like Skal -- I will absolutely take the guy with the talent to be great over the guy without the talent to be great. Or in Rondo's case, the talent and knowledge of how to play defense if he gets along with a coach and a superstar and decides its worth it again.
Another guy who played crap defense last year was Afflalo. But again, I am in the market and I can tell anybody looking at the numbers that no, he wasn't a crapty defender. He played crap defense. There is a difference. He started out the season doing ok, Rambis took over, they immediately clashed (Rambis was such a seemingly mild mannered geek hero as a player but seems to be singularly capable of losing his teams as a coach), and after the clash Afflalo decided well if you don't have my back, I'm not laying anything on the line for you and started barely jogging. Afflalo hasn't found it worth his while to lay it out over there in years. But give him a defensive coach... You can potentially resuscitate a guy who played crap defense but knows how to defend. There's nothing you can do for a Jose Calderon who just is a crap defender and never will be any better.
Now there were other issues here. It cost $14 mil a year to get Rondo. We would have had to scrap our roleplayer revolution. But these roleplayers only have a fraction of Rondo's talent. There's a way to make them work, but if they don't, its going to fail spectacularly. There will be no more nights like last year when we were simply the better, more talented team than playoff teams. The grit and grind has to work or dumping our FAs, and potentially Rudy and friends too, is going to be yet another huge talent setback for the franchise that always bleeds what little talent it gets away. And it will cost us Cuz too, just to complete the picture of the next 76ers.
If Rondo played a shred of defense last year, he would either be back here or would be making a lot more money than he is now. Instead he decided to do this nearly every game and most teams decided to pass regardless of how much talent he possesses.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2016/...ome-major-defensive-lapses-seen-kings-vs-6ers
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2016/...ome-major-defensive-lapses-seen-kings-vs-6ers
I read your breakdown. What it showed me was that playing with Rondo slightly benefitted Cousins and playing with Cousins greatly benefitted Rondo. At least from the standpoint of team stats. Rondo assisted on nearly every one of Cousin's threes and often delivered the ball where he could be effective. But dangerous? Hard to be a dangerous team when opponents know you won't play any defense and can easily be outworked as witnessed by that cringe worthy performance in Mexico City vs Boston.
And the idea that somehow Rondo is going to decide he wants to play defense again when he couldn't be bothered to in a contract (and reputation repairing) year is beyond hopeful IMO. If Rondo had any fire on that end we would have seen it at some point this year. At least a flash. A single stretch of determined defense. We didn't. He didn't give effort against the worst guards in the league and he didn't step up to the challenge of Curry, Westbrook etc. I can understand giving up on your coach part way through the year - Rondo started the season barely moving his feet on D. I saw absolutely nothing from Rajon Rondo that made me think he still had a passion for winning. No fighting through screens, no extra effort for loose balls, no being upset as losses piled up and guys went right by him repeatedly.
Rajon Rondo is a big name. He's no longer a good player. And unless something dramatically changes with the roster he's almost certainly going to be a disaster in Chicago next to another ball dominant guard with an unreliable outside shot.
And the idea that somehow Rondo is going to decide he wants to play defense again when he couldn't be bothered to in a contract (and reputation repairing) year is beyond hopeful IMO. If Rondo had any fire on that end we would have seen it at some point this year. At least a flash. A single stretch of determined defense. We didn't. He didn't give effort against the worst guards in the league and he didn't step up to the challenge of Curry, Westbrook etc. I can understand giving up on your coach part way through the year - Rondo started the season barely moving his feet on D. I saw absolutely nothing from Rajon Rondo that made me think he still had a passion for winning. No fighting through screens, no extra effort for loose balls, no being upset as losses piled up and guys went right by him repeatedly.
Rajon Rondo is a big name. He's no longer a good player. And unless something dramatically changes with the roster he's almost certainly going to be a disaster in Chicago next to another ball dominant guard with an unreliable outside shot.
First of all Rondo's defense last year left much to be desired.
Second of all whoever did that writeup has no idea how to analyze plays at all. There was only 1 truly egregious non-defense played there, and then a series of examples of our team defense with lazy but understandable defensive decisions. Our switch up top that killed us all year. A miscommunication with Marco, and gee who else might be at fault there? Rondo stepping in to potentially stop a dropoff pass to Okafor, and then being late on the recovery in the corner.
There was as much bad scheme and no buy in as anything else there. And again, things that can maybe be corrected by the right coach.
Second of all whoever did that writeup has no idea how to analyze plays at all. There was only 1 truly egregious non-defense played there, and then a series of examples of our team defense with lazy but understandable defensive decisions. Our switch up top that killed us all year. A miscommunication with Marco, and gee who else might be at fault there? Rondo stepping in to potentially stop a dropoff pass to Okafor, and then being late on the recovery in the corner.
There was as much bad scheme and no buy in as anything else there. And again, things that can maybe be corrected by the right coach.
Could not agree more. I disagree with Brick a lot, but I can usually glean where he's coming from in a basketball sense. He's just off his rocker here with no real leg to stand on. His argument basically consists of him having pedigree 8 years ago as a great defender/champion and that he can magically get that back.
Maybe he still has the talent to do so, but we saw none of it last year. The guy was possibly the laziest defender we've seen in a Kings uniform. It's one thing if he was trying out there and just didn't have the ability. But more often than not, he just didn't put the effort in.
It's also telling that the "super talented Rondo" basically had no market this offseason in an incredibly weak PG market where EVERYONE had money to spend.
Maybe he still has the talent to do so, but we saw none of it last year. The guy was possibly the laziest defender we've seen in a Kings uniform. It's one thing if he was trying out there and just didn't have the ability. But more often than not, he just didn't put the effort in.
It's also telling that the "super talented Rondo" basically had no market this offseason in an incredibly weak PG market where EVERYONE had money to spend.
There's nothing to get back.
That's the funny part about the Rondo thing. First of all, most of his bashers are full of crap and had their minds made up before he even arrived here, because ooh, he and Carlisle fought. A narrative was built,. the same way one was built around Cuz. In your case there's even more prejudice because of your conscious adoption of the PG-as-chucker motif, making Rondo a de facto dinosaur. So Rondo came, and I watched to see if he was indeed ruined. And I didn't see a one legged man. I didn't see a degraded passer. Contrary to Funky's assertion there were still a ton of hustle plays, and some of the most saavy plays we have seen since the Golden Era teams. He put up numbers virtually identical to what he put up before getting injured, and he even added a 3pt shot, which he hit at a higher rate than Conley hit his threes.
But that doesn't matter when you have a narrative and your mind made up. Its like our current political morass. Facts go right out the window.
Now on the other end of the floor he was undoubtedly lazy and playing at half speed. Then again that was virtually a teamwide affliction. Rampant confusion, frustration, quitting etc. If Rondo were this standout lousy defender while everybody else was busting their butt and vying for All Defense then we would have a case. But instead he was a canary. There was no guarantee he would have played better defense in other circumstances, but it was quite clear that last year was not better circumstances. Nobody liked the system, had any confidence in it, there were lockerroom problems, a silent coach sitting all game, we were 1-7 before we even began. A teamwide quit against the coach took place mid season. It was romperoom, and hence barely a test at all.
What is confirmable, what is proven, is that:
Rondo 15-16 35.2min 11.9pts (.454 .365 .580) 6.0reb 11.7ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 3.9TO
Rondo 11-12 36.9min 11.9pts (.448 .238 .597) 4.8reb 11.7ast 1.8stl 0.1blk 3.6TO +All Star, Atlantic Division Champions, 39-27
And so now I am sitting on a player who on one side of the ball is putting up virtually identical numbers to the ones he put up as for a team that reached the ECF 5 years ago and lost a Game 7 to the Heatles. And the most accurate thing that can be said about him on the other end was that he wasn't trying very hard. Not that he couldn't move. Not that he had forgotten how to play. He just wasn't trying very hard, in a season when there was a lot of that going around.
That's the funny part about the Rondo thing. First of all, most of his bashers are full of crap and had their minds made up before he even arrived here, because ooh, he and Carlisle fought. A narrative was built,. the same way one was built around Cuz. In your case there's even more prejudice because of your conscious adoption of the PG-as-chucker motif, making Rondo a de facto dinosaur. So Rondo came, and I watched to see if he was indeed ruined. And I didn't see a one legged man. I didn't see a degraded passer. Contrary to Funky's assertion there were still a ton of hustle plays, and some of the most saavy plays we have seen since the Golden Era teams. He put up numbers virtually identical to what he put up before getting injured, and he even added a 3pt shot, which he hit at a higher rate than Conley hit his threes.
But that doesn't matter when you have a narrative and your mind made up. Its like our current political morass. Facts go right out the window.
Now on the other end of the floor he was undoubtedly lazy and playing at half speed. Then again that was virtually a teamwide affliction. Rampant confusion, frustration, quitting etc. If Rondo were this standout lousy defender while everybody else was busting their butt and vying for All Defense then we would have a case. But instead he was a canary. There was no guarantee he would have played better defense in other circumstances, but it was quite clear that last year was not better circumstances. Nobody liked the system, had any confidence in it, there were lockerroom problems, a silent coach sitting all game, we were 1-7 before we even began. A teamwide quit against the coach took place mid season. It was romperoom, and hence barely a test at all.
What is confirmable, what is proven, is that:
Rondo 15-16 35.2min 11.9pts (.454 .365 .580) 6.0reb 11.7ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 3.9TO
Rondo 11-12 36.9min 11.9pts (.448 .238 .597) 4.8reb 11.7ast 1.8stl 0.1blk 3.6TO +All Star, Atlantic Division Champions, 39-27
And so now I am sitting on a player who on one side of the ball is putting up virtually identical numbers to the ones he put up as for a team that reached the ECF 5 years ago and lost a Game 7 to the Heatles. And the most accurate thing that can be said about him on the other end was that he wasn't trying very hard. Not that he couldn't move. Not that he had forgotten how to play. He just wasn't trying very hard, in a season when there was a lot of that going around.
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I still think, for a player who's top 5 on one side of the ball, the protocol is to let him be himself and find solutions to cover him.
Rondo was putting up all-star numbers (or as Brick said, numbers for a team that reached the ECF 5 years ago) on the offensive end and increased the productivity of our superstar, unless he was determined to leave, there is absolutely no reason why anybody would wanna dump him.
But oh well, water under the bridge now.
Rondo was putting up all-star numbers (or as Brick said, numbers for a team that reached the ECF 5 years ago) on the offensive end and increased the productivity of our superstar, unless he was determined to leave, there is absolutely no reason why anybody would wanna dump him.
But oh well, water under the bridge now.
I appreciate you trying Brick, but the degree of stubborn on this particular issue exceeds all reason from what I can see. People didn't want him here to begin with and once it became clear we weren't going to be in the Playoffs this year old grudges came back hard. The narrative on Rondo is so established at this point, it would take an act of God to change people's minds. I'm tired of trying to see the rational where there is none. The best PG we've had here since Mike Bibby is gone for basically no reason and people are celebrating -- I suppose because we're happy to return to the "who's the PG this year" slot machine we've been spinning for the last decade.
Speaking of spinning, it's interesting watching people try to spin this off-season as some master stroke of restraint and fiscal responsibility. Isn't it frighteningly apparent that we have no long-term plan? Last summer Vlade went out and targeted Rondo, we got him the shooter he wanted, we got a backup PG who can shoot the lights out to hedge our bets, we spent the rest of our money on a competent backup C. All moves that made sense if our goal was to build a quality team around the Cousins/Gay pairing which was the only promising aspect of our lost season the year before. Now we tell Rondo that we don't want him back, we trade Belinelli, we let Seth go and we load up on (let's be honest) a bunch of backup SG/SFs on 1 or 2 year deals. Is this what Joerger asked for? Get me a ton of mediocre wings? I seriously doubt it. We need to pay Tolliver $8 million to be our 9th/10th man but we can't afford to give Caron Butler $1.5 million? We need Garret Temple and Arron Afflalo but we can't afford $3 million a year for Seth Curry at a position of need? You have to be seriously deluded to buy that these are forward-thinking moves designed to increase our ability to compete.
At least tell me our plan is to cash out on Cousins for assets and wait out the Durant/Curry Warriors window of the next 4 years. That would make a modicum of sense. Competing? You've got to be crazy. Not only are we 10 years removed from our last first round playoff loss, we're apparently incapable of executing a team building plan that extends beyond the confines of a single season. This time is going to be different? I like Dave Joerger in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it. I'm at the point now where I've realized there are better ways to spend my time. It's not just about Rondo and Butler. The attitude around the team this season, the attitude among the fans this season, the comments coming from the front office, the actual moves being made and money being spent. The whole thing has turned toxic to the point I don't even want to be involved anymore. Why are we forming factions around particular players? Why are we still bringing up moves that happened years ago and shaking our fingers? None of this represents what's positive and uplifting about competitive sports.
In my entire experience as an NBA fan, I've seen 5 or 6 franchises that are smart and proactive about competing for championships. Everyone else is churning through personnel or going through the motions. I've finally had to question if it actually makes sense to use the global "we" to refer to an organization which obviously doesn't share my values. I've tried as hard as I can to reconcile the disparity, but every time I try to project a plan out of the latest random assortment of transactions they zag the other direction. They fire the coach or change the GM or trade a key player and we're onto a new "plan". But then "plan" implies a series of connected moves intended to reach a common purpose -- I don't think there is one. I think Cousins' trade demand, whenever it comes, is going to catch them completely by surprise when they probably should have seen it coming since 2 or 3 years ago. So they'll take the best deal they can get which most likely involves betting on ping pong balls. That new arena is bigger than basketball and it was an important step to take for the city of Sacramento to build toward the future. The Kings will still be there in 20 years with whoever is in charge at that time trying their hand at it. But we're not competing. Or rather they're not competing. And as a fan, I've finally had to admit to myself that I'm not comfortable supporting a team which isn't trying to win; isn't even capable of it because they lack the skill and ingenuity to figure out how.
Speaking of spinning, it's interesting watching people try to spin this off-season as some master stroke of restraint and fiscal responsibility. Isn't it frighteningly apparent that we have no long-term plan? Last summer Vlade went out and targeted Rondo, we got him the shooter he wanted, we got a backup PG who can shoot the lights out to hedge our bets, we spent the rest of our money on a competent backup C. All moves that made sense if our goal was to build a quality team around the Cousins/Gay pairing which was the only promising aspect of our lost season the year before. Now we tell Rondo that we don't want him back, we trade Belinelli, we let Seth go and we load up on (let's be honest) a bunch of backup SG/SFs on 1 or 2 year deals. Is this what Joerger asked for? Get me a ton of mediocre wings? I seriously doubt it. We need to pay Tolliver $8 million to be our 9th/10th man but we can't afford to give Caron Butler $1.5 million? We need Garret Temple and Arron Afflalo but we can't afford $3 million a year for Seth Curry at a position of need? You have to be seriously deluded to buy that these are forward-thinking moves designed to increase our ability to compete.
At least tell me our plan is to cash out on Cousins for assets and wait out the Durant/Curry Warriors window of the next 4 years. That would make a modicum of sense. Competing? You've got to be crazy. Not only are we 10 years removed from our last first round playoff loss, we're apparently incapable of executing a team building plan that extends beyond the confines of a single season. This time is going to be different? I like Dave Joerger in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it. I'm at the point now where I've realized there are better ways to spend my time. It's not just about Rondo and Butler. The attitude around the team this season, the attitude among the fans this season, the comments coming from the front office, the actual moves being made and money being spent. The whole thing has turned toxic to the point I don't even want to be involved anymore. Why are we forming factions around particular players? Why are we still bringing up moves that happened years ago and shaking our fingers? None of this represents what's positive and uplifting about competitive sports.
In my entire experience as an NBA fan, I've seen 5 or 6 franchises that are smart and proactive about competing for championships. Everyone else is churning through personnel or going through the motions. I've finally had to question if it actually makes sense to use the global "we" to refer to an organization which obviously doesn't share my values. I've tried as hard as I can to reconcile the disparity, but every time I try to project a plan out of the latest random assortment of transactions they zag the other direction. They fire the coach or change the GM or trade a key player and we're onto a new "plan". But then "plan" implies a series of connected moves intended to reach a common purpose -- I don't think there is one. I think Cousins' trade demand, whenever it comes, is going to catch them completely by surprise when they probably should have seen it coming since 2 or 3 years ago. So they'll take the best deal they can get which most likely involves betting on ping pong balls. That new arena is bigger than basketball and it was an important step to take for the city of Sacramento to build toward the future. The Kings will still be there in 20 years with whoever is in charge at that time trying their hand at it. But we're not competing. Or rather they're not competing. And as a fan, I've finally had to admit to myself that I'm not comfortable supporting a team which isn't trying to win; isn't even capable of it because they lack the skill and ingenuity to figure out how.
Rondo didn't play defense under Stevens or Carlisle. No coach is going to make him pursuade Rondo to play with the same defensive intensity pre-injury. It's just probably not going to happen. Last year wasn't some blip on the radar because of Karl. Rondo has been a sub-par defense for quite some time now.
Rondo is this great player and yet settled for a 1 year deal while players like Mozgov got 4 year deals. Pretty telling what other teams around the league think of him.
On Court ORTG - 106.1
Off Court ORTG - 105.6
On Court DRTG - 109.3
Off Court DRTG - 107.6
Difference - -1.3
So Kings were actually better with Rondo off the court because his defense is so bad.
Rondo is this great player and yet settled for a 1 year deal while players like Mozgov got 4 year deals. Pretty telling what other teams around the league think of him.
On Court ORTG - 106.1
Off Court ORTG - 105.6
On Court DRTG - 109.3
Off Court DRTG - 107.6
Difference - -1.3
So Kings were actually better with Rondo off the court because his defense is so bad.
I don't think many people have a problem with the offensive numbers Rondo put up. I don't think they have a problem with his attitude or his past either. What we had a problem with was his James Harden effort on defense. He wasn't just a bad defender. IT was a bad defender. Beno was a bad defender. But those guys at least tried. Rondo didn't even try. He just floated around in passing lanes looking for a steal while other teams bombed threes on us all season long. Great, he got 2 steals a game. Awesome. But at what cost? Is it worth it to get 2 steals to give up 5 wide open three's a game? What about all the plays he fell asleep on that were blamed on other players because they were covering the man he lost and then had to run out to their own man as they were splashing down a wide open three?
As good as Rondo makes everyone else on offense, he taketh away on the defensive side of things. You can't win like that. It'll be masked better with Butler next to him in Chicago but the effort on his side will be the same because he sure isn't going to go in there respecting Fred Hoiberg.
As good as Rondo makes everyone else on offense, he taketh away on the defensive side of things. You can't win like that. It'll be masked better with Butler next to him in Chicago but the effort on his side will be the same because he sure isn't going to go in there respecting Fred Hoiberg.
Maybe your wrong. Its not like the FO didn't try to get a couple of better FA's. it's not like they didnt try and move up in the draft to get the 2 or 3 players they had targeted. They didn't want to give up what was needed for the draft pick...who knows what the cost was? They didn't get the players they had targeted in FA so they went to plan B. I've got no problem with the acquisitions. They are better than last year. They are being fiscally responsible. They are not looking for the quick fix. They are investing in youth with the plan on developing these guys.
They hired a young desirable coach....who is going to stress defense. They brought in high character guys who are going to play defense to supplement the talent we already have. Is it going to equal more wins? I think so.....Defense still wins games. Will this group quit on the coach? Maybe, but I have a feeling that we are stabilizing....from the owner staying in his lane to a realistic approach to developing our roster. It appears to me the plan is to try and create grind house part two.
I think Vlade attempted to help Karl in making it work but the reality is that the Karl style doesn't suit Vlade and sure the hell didnt suit our rosters strength. Now we got a coach that "gets" it when it comes to this roster. It feels like Vlade, Catanella, our coaching staff and roster all fit together.
The roster is improved...maybe we didnt get the home run signing but we got pieces that could gel together and create an identity. This is what we should be hoping for.....a change in identity. Joerger wants a gritty solid defensive team...whether that's enough remains to be seen but the last time we resembled that we had Malone and that 15 game stretch where the team got after it on defense and we punished teams in the paint getting to the foul line. That team had flaws for sure but that small sample size was the best stretch I can remember and fans and players were excited. Maybe we will get that back because this roster as is currently constructed, without any final moves, is better than that Malone team. The bench now looks to be better with vets and hopefully promising rookies.
They hired a young desirable coach....who is going to stress defense. They brought in high character guys who are going to play defense to supplement the talent we already have. Is it going to equal more wins? I think so.....Defense still wins games. Will this group quit on the coach? Maybe, but I have a feeling that we are stabilizing....from the owner staying in his lane to a realistic approach to developing our roster. It appears to me the plan is to try and create grind house part two.
I think Vlade attempted to help Karl in making it work but the reality is that the Karl style doesn't suit Vlade and sure the hell didnt suit our rosters strength. Now we got a coach that "gets" it when it comes to this roster. It feels like Vlade, Catanella, our coaching staff and roster all fit together.
The roster is improved...maybe we didnt get the home run signing but we got pieces that could gel together and create an identity. This is what we should be hoping for.....a change in identity. Joerger wants a gritty solid defensive team...whether that's enough remains to be seen but the last time we resembled that we had Malone and that 15 game stretch where the team got after it on defense and we punished teams in the paint getting to the foul line. That team had flaws for sure but that small sample size was the best stretch I can remember and fans and players were excited. Maybe we will get that back because this roster as is currently constructed, without any final moves, is better than that Malone team. The bench now looks to be better with vets and hopefully promising rookies.
This is one of the shallowest arguments I have seen in awhile.
A lot of credible members have given a lot of evidence as to why it was a wise to move on from Rondo, but for some reason you keep wanting to hold on to your PPG/RPG/APG/SPG & Cousins/Rondo net rating arguments. So to save us all from banging our heads against the wall when you force this lazy evidence down our throats, let me put this to rest once and for all...
Brick's "Rondo has similar PPG/RPG/APG/SPG this year as he did as an All-Star" argument
Rondo was a good player. Nobody is denying that. He was deservedly an all-star during his time with Boston when they had the big three. He was a great player who made that team go while also playing lock down defense.
However, if you're only going to compare the player Rondo is now to the player he was back then with FG%, PPG, RPG, APG, & SPG, then you are either choosing to ignore or are just flat out ignorant to the fact that a players contribution to winning has many, many more factors that come into play. Focusing just on these FEW & BASIC stats to make your point leaves you incredibly vulnerable from a credibility standpoint.
Let's take a look at the '11-12 season & '15-16 season a little more closely...
'11-'12 Season w/ Celtics
Rondo's On-Court Offensive Rating: 105.2
Rondo's Off-Court Offensive Rating: 97.3
Rondo's Net Offensive Rating: +7.9
Rondo's On-Court Defensive Rating: 100.2
Rondo's Off-Court Defensive Rating: 98.1
Rondo's Net Defensive Rating: +2.1
Rondo's Net Overall Rating: +5.8
'15-'16 Season w/ Kings
Rondo's On-Court Offensive Rating: 107.3
Rondo's Off-Court Offensive Rating: 106.9
Rondo's Net Offensive Rating: +0.4
Rondo's On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.1
Rondo's Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.4
Rondo's Net Defensive Rating: +1.7
Rondo's Net Overall Rating: -1.3
So despite Rondo having a very similar FG%, PPG, RPG, APG, & SPG this year that he had in '11-'12, he actually made the Kings worse when he was on the floor; whereas, he actually helped his team win while playing with the Celtics that year. You can get caught up in the flash & the empty stats if you'd like to, but the numbers don't lie. Rondo did not help us this year. Is that so hard to comprehend?
We can also look at his Net Overall Rating over the past years to see the trend.
'07-'08 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +6.9
'08-'09 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +6.3
'09-'10 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +2.6
'10-'11 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +7.4
'11-'12 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +5.8
'12-'13 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -3.6
'13-'14 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -6.5
'14-'15 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -1.9
'14-'15 Season w/ Mavs - Net Overall Rating: -6.3
'15-'16 Season w/ Kings - Net Overall Rating: -1.3
As you can see, it's been a pretty consistent theme over the past few years with Rondo. You can chalk it up to age or his injury or his unwillingness to play a shred of defense. But one thing is for sure. The Rondo that used to be a contributor on a winning team is no longer around. Feel free to cling on to his golden years expecting that he will once again become that player once again, but as for me, I'm serious about putting a contender around Boogie. And putting my money on a 30 year old PG who hasn't helped a team win in 4 seasons is not what good GMs. In fact, it's borderline reckless. Rondo should be coming off the bench at this point in his career.
Brick's "But when Rondo & Cousins are paired together, we win on the court" argument
That is correct, but talk about putting on your blinders here. Did you not think to check what a Collison/Cousins pairing looks like when compared to Rondo/Cousins?
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Offensive Rating: 104.8
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Defensive Rating: 104.1
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Net Rating: +0.7
Collison & Cousins On-Court Offensive Rating: 106.7
Collison & Cousins On-Court Defensive Rating: 105.3
Collison & Cousins On-Court Net Rating: +1.4
Then there is the evidence that Collison was just flat out better by himself (rather than trying to look at combos to make your point).
Rondo
On-Court Offensive Rating: 107.3
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 106.9
Net Offensive Rating: +0.4
On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.1
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.4
Net Defensive Rating: +1.7
Net Overall Rating: -1.3
Collison
On-Court Offensive Rating: 108.8
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 105.1
Net Offensive Rating: +3.6
On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.5
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.2
Net Defensive Rating: +2.3
Net Overall Rating: +1.4
Pretty clear right there who contributing more to wins last year. If you want to only consider Collison's minutes when he played PG, the stats even show a larger gap between Rondo & Collison
Collison at PG
On-Court Offensive Rating: 105.3
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 105.1
Net Offensive Rating: +0.2
On-Court Defensive Rating: 106.6
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.2
Net Defensive Rating: -1.6
Net Overall Rating: +1.8
What's even more impressive with Collison's +1.4 (+1.8) vs. Rondo's -1.3, is that Rondo played with Cousins for 85% of his minutes while Collison only played with Cousins for 62% of his minutes. Considering the 2 man tandem of Collison/Cousins was better than Rondo/Cousins, it's very reasonable to expect that Collison's Net Rating would be even higher if he were to play 85% of his minutes with Cousins. For example, 82% of Collison's minutes last year were with Cousins and Collison posted a net rating of +8.1!
All this data tells you a lot such as...
1. Collison helped us win more when compared to Rondo
2. Collison is even better when he plays exclusively at PG
3. Rondo's rating is even inflated a bit due to the high % of minutes that are logged w/ Cousins
4. The Collison/Cousins pairing is more effective than the Rondo/Cousins pairing
5. We were better with Rondo off the floor
It's pretty clear why we moved on from Rondo & for now, Vlade, the FO, & many posters here seem to agree.
A lot of credible members have given a lot of evidence as to why it was a wise to move on from Rondo, but for some reason you keep wanting to hold on to your PPG/RPG/APG/SPG & Cousins/Rondo net rating arguments. So to save us all from banging our heads against the wall when you force this lazy evidence down our throats, let me put this to rest once and for all...
Brick's "Rondo has similar PPG/RPG/APG/SPG this year as he did as an All-Star" argument
Rondo was a good player. Nobody is denying that. He was deservedly an all-star during his time with Boston when they had the big three. He was a great player who made that team go while also playing lock down defense.
However, if you're only going to compare the player Rondo is now to the player he was back then with FG%, PPG, RPG, APG, & SPG, then you are either choosing to ignore or are just flat out ignorant to the fact that a players contribution to winning has many, many more factors that come into play. Focusing just on these FEW & BASIC stats to make your point leaves you incredibly vulnerable from a credibility standpoint.
Let's take a look at the '11-12 season & '15-16 season a little more closely...
'11-'12 Season w/ Celtics
Rondo's On-Court Offensive Rating: 105.2
Rondo's Off-Court Offensive Rating: 97.3
Rondo's Net Offensive Rating: +7.9
Rondo's On-Court Defensive Rating: 100.2
Rondo's Off-Court Defensive Rating: 98.1
Rondo's Net Defensive Rating: +2.1
Rondo's Net Overall Rating: +5.8
'15-'16 Season w/ Kings
Rondo's On-Court Offensive Rating: 107.3
Rondo's Off-Court Offensive Rating: 106.9
Rondo's Net Offensive Rating: +0.4
Rondo's On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.1
Rondo's Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.4
Rondo's Net Defensive Rating: +1.7
Rondo's Net Overall Rating: -1.3
So despite Rondo having a very similar FG%, PPG, RPG, APG, & SPG this year that he had in '11-'12, he actually made the Kings worse when he was on the floor; whereas, he actually helped his team win while playing with the Celtics that year. You can get caught up in the flash & the empty stats if you'd like to, but the numbers don't lie. Rondo did not help us this year. Is that so hard to comprehend?
We can also look at his Net Overall Rating over the past years to see the trend.
'07-'08 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +6.9
'08-'09 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +6.3
'09-'10 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +2.6
'10-'11 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +7.4
'11-'12 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: +5.8
'12-'13 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -3.6
'13-'14 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -6.5
'14-'15 Season w/ Celtics - Net Overall Rating: -1.9
'14-'15 Season w/ Mavs - Net Overall Rating: -6.3
'15-'16 Season w/ Kings - Net Overall Rating: -1.3
As you can see, it's been a pretty consistent theme over the past few years with Rondo. You can chalk it up to age or his injury or his unwillingness to play a shred of defense. But one thing is for sure. The Rondo that used to be a contributor on a winning team is no longer around. Feel free to cling on to his golden years expecting that he will once again become that player once again, but as for me, I'm serious about putting a contender around Boogie. And putting my money on a 30 year old PG who hasn't helped a team win in 4 seasons is not what good GMs. In fact, it's borderline reckless. Rondo should be coming off the bench at this point in his career.
Brick's "But when Rondo & Cousins are paired together, we win on the court" argument
That is correct, but talk about putting on your blinders here. Did you not think to check what a Collison/Cousins pairing looks like when compared to Rondo/Cousins?
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Offensive Rating: 104.8
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Defensive Rating: 104.1
Rondo & Cousins On-Court Net Rating: +0.7
Collison & Cousins On-Court Offensive Rating: 106.7
Collison & Cousins On-Court Defensive Rating: 105.3
Collison & Cousins On-Court Net Rating: +1.4
Then there is the evidence that Collison was just flat out better by himself (rather than trying to look at combos to make your point).
Rondo
On-Court Offensive Rating: 107.3
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 106.9
Net Offensive Rating: +0.4
On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.1
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.4
Net Defensive Rating: +1.7
Net Overall Rating: -1.3
Collison
On-Court Offensive Rating: 108.8
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 105.1
Net Offensive Rating: +3.6
On-Court Defensive Rating: 110.5
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.2
Net Defensive Rating: +2.3
Net Overall Rating: +1.4
Pretty clear right there who contributing more to wins last year. If you want to only consider Collison's minutes when he played PG, the stats even show a larger gap between Rondo & Collison
Collison at PG
On-Court Offensive Rating: 105.3
Off-Court Offensive Rating: 105.1
Net Offensive Rating: +0.2
On-Court Defensive Rating: 106.6
Off-Court Defensive Rating: 108.2
Net Defensive Rating: -1.6
Net Overall Rating: +1.8
What's even more impressive with Collison's +1.4 (+1.8) vs. Rondo's -1.3, is that Rondo played with Cousins for 85% of his minutes while Collison only played with Cousins for 62% of his minutes. Considering the 2 man tandem of Collison/Cousins was better than Rondo/Cousins, it's very reasonable to expect that Collison's Net Rating would be even higher if he were to play 85% of his minutes with Cousins. For example, 82% of Collison's minutes last year were with Cousins and Collison posted a net rating of +8.1!
All this data tells you a lot such as...
1. Collison helped us win more when compared to Rondo
2. Collison is even better when he plays exclusively at PG
3. Rondo's rating is even inflated a bit due to the high % of minutes that are logged w/ Cousins
4. The Collison/Cousins pairing is more effective than the Rondo/Cousins pairing
5. We were better with Rondo off the floor
It's pretty clear why we moved on from Rondo & for now, Vlade, the FO, & many posters here seem to agree.
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I glaze over the long long posts with all the numbers and advanced stats. Too much to absorb. But where Rondo is concerned it always looked to me - just eye test not statistically - like he was sort of athletically over the hill on defense but could contribute a steal now and then - a crafty cheat once in a while - and maybe even cover a guy now and then when he really put his mind to it. And therefore I assumed that a coach who wanted to would be a able to set up a scheme where Rondo is a cheater and the other 4 guys play roles that let Rondo be a cheater, and hold teams under 100. But maybe there is no such thing. I assumed that was what people meant by "hiding him on defense". I was for it.
But more important - Rondo put on a show every night that was worth the admission price. I enjoyed watching him very much and in an otherwise bleak dreary season, I did not feel ripped off for my ticket money thanks PRIMARILY to Rondo. So for that reason I'm a bit sad to see him go. Not only could he be spectacular - he had grit and fire.
But I'm so excited about the cohesiveness of Vlade and Dave that I'm willing to give them a 2-3 year window to do whatever makes the most basketball sense to them. And if that means letting Rondo go - that means letting Rondo go.
But more important - Rondo put on a show every night that was worth the admission price. I enjoyed watching him very much and in an otherwise bleak dreary season, I did not feel ripped off for my ticket money thanks PRIMARILY to Rondo. So for that reason I'm a bit sad to see him go. Not only could he be spectacular - he had grit and fire.
But I'm so excited about the cohesiveness of Vlade and Dave that I'm willing to give them a 2-3 year window to do whatever makes the most basketball sense to them. And if that means letting Rondo go - that means letting Rondo go.
Kings lineup---------------------------Poss.----ORtg----DRtg
Boogie, Rondo, no Mclemore--------2212----107.9----107.2
Boogie, Rondo, Mclemore-----------1526-----109.3----104.9
It's all about Benny!
Nobody worked last season without Cousins, except James Anderson. He might have just really hated Boogie.
Boogie, Rondo, no Mclemore--------2212----107.9----107.2
Boogie, Rondo, Mclemore-----------1526-----109.3----104.9
It's all about Benny!
Nobody worked last season without Cousins, except James Anderson. He might have just really hated Boogie.
Kings lineup---------------------------Poss.----ORtg----DRtg
Boogie, Rondo, no Mclemore--------2212----107.9----107.2
Boogie, Rondo, Mclemore-----------1526-----109.3----104.9
It's all about Benny!
Nobody worked last season without Cousins, except James Anderson. He might have just really hated Boogie.
Boogie, Rondo, no Mclemore--------2212----107.9----107.2
Boogie, Rondo, Mclemore-----------1526-----109.3----104.9
It's all about Benny!
Nobody worked last season without Cousins, except James Anderson. He might have just really hated Boogie.