Summer League Las Vegas 2016, July 8th -18th

[ParniValjak]

Skal reminds me a little bit of Drummond. Not in game. But in people being a bit foolish writing a hugely talented big man off because he had a single bad college season. You see a talented 7 footer, you should be looking for excuses to take him, not not take him.

Now Skal concerns me more than Drummond did -- with Drummond people were ignoring he played for a terrible big man system, while Skal bombed at the same Big Man U that gave us our current starting frontcourt. And he bombed in a very soft way, which is always alarming. But that said, he's another highly mobile 7 footer to go with WCS, another major shotblocking threat, and you can watch shooting drills with him just splashing in shot after shot after shot like a bigger Durant. Just so so easy.

Last time we made a pick like that was when Whiteside slid into the 2nd round for us the year we drafted Cuz. Let's hope it doesn't take Skal 5 years and 3 continents to figure it out as well.

I wonder if one of the factors in Skal sliding all the way to 28 is that there is this small ball syndrome that is spreading through the league like rapid fire. He is 7 footer so he is no priority. Ignoring the fact that he is athletic and can shoot the ball out to NBA 3pt line.

I wonder how long it will take teams to realize that the only way teams will have a chance against GSW is to play with athletic length.

 

[peacelate]

Skal slid because to put it as nicely as possible, he didn't look like he knew how to play basketball when he stepped on the court.

Big men have always been coveted. It's just been that there haven't been franchise changing big men in prior years, but that's beginning to change. If there are franchise changing centers like Towns and AD in the draft, you can almost guarantee teams will select them in the top 3. It's not necessary small-ball that has prevented bigs from being drafted, but rule changes that have turned the league into a guard-driven game that entices GM's to pick guards over big men.

 

[Gilles]

I think Skal, for all his foibles at UK, is the more skilled player right now. He's probably always going to be the better ball handler and passer, most likely the better jump shooter. Skal has a couple of inches on Chriss as well.

Chriss is going to be the far stronger, more athletic player. He'll be able to crash the boards harder (note: he did NOT crash the boards at UW for some reason) and will probably be much better at getting to the hole in traffic. But skill wise he will probably always be a step behind.

Chriss was a decent offensive rebounder, but on D he was running around trying to swat at everything, so the number of times he was in good rebounding position is not very high. He also had, what I would call "Towns effect": Cal asked KAT to be active on D, so he was pretty impactful on that end in Kentucky, but was also racking up fouls at a ridiculous rate; you can't play such a style in the pros, so as a rookie KAT was pretty reserved on defense, but that made him a bad defender despite very good rebounding and blocking numbers; and Chriss wasn't that big of a force on defense to begin with, so Channing Frye comparisons are much closer to reality than people realize.

Chriss has elite athleticism, can jump out of the gym. Whereas Skal is not that type of athlete

Chriss has elite athleticism in the same way, that young Rudy Gay, Gerald Green or Harrison Barnes had: he can get up. But NBA type of athleticism is more about length, strength and quickness/agility, and there Chriss is not that impressive: he has high center of gravity, pretty stiff hips and below average length.
Skal has some problems as well: he weighed 198 pounds in 2013, 216 - at Hoops Summit, and came with the same weight to the Combine after a year in pretty good Kentucky weight training program, so if I have to bet, he's going to be like all those lanky UNC guys, who struggle to put on any muscle.

 

[Bricklayer]

Chriss was a decent offensive rebounder, but on D he was running around trying to swat at everything, so the number of times he was in good rebounding position is not very high. He also had, what I would call "Towns effect": Cal asked KAT to be active on D, so he was pretty impactful on that end in Kentucky, but was also racking up fouls at a ridiculous rate; you can't play such a style in the pros, so as a rookie KAT was pretty reserved on defense, but that made him a bad defender despite very good rebounding and blocking numbers; and Chriss wasn't that big of a force on defense to begin with, so Channing Frye comparisons are much closer to reality than people realize.

Chriss has elite athleticism in the same way, that young Rudy Gay, Gerald Green or Harrison Barnes had: he can get up. But NBA type of athleticism is more about length, strength and quickness/agility, and there Chriss is not that impressive: he has high center of gravity, pretty stiff hips and below average length.
Skal has some problems as well: he weighed 198 pounds in 2013, 216 - at Hoops Summit, and came with the same weight to the Combine after a year in pretty good Kentucky weight training program, so if I have to bet, he's going to be like all those lanky UNC guys, who struggle to put on any muscle.

Skal may be a very tall 4/3. Know we were looking at him as a stretch 4 at least. Don't think there is any center in him despite the height. I could probably hold post position better than he can.

Which all works very well if we have a Cuz and WCS already on the roster. If Skal pans out, and if we can jsut please please turn this and keep Cuz, then the very "biggest" Skal would ever have to play would be next to Willie in an all-scrawny frontline that would need to focus on taking care of the boards. If all of that comes true, then the more important thing than having bulk will be how his lateral movement is -- can he stay in front of some 3s? I doubt he could start at SF at that height, but if you are going to be a 90lb weakling the next way you can contribute is at least actually staying in front of people and challenging with length.

 

[King Baller]

Skal may be a very tall 4/3. Know we were looking at him as a stretch 4 at least. Don't think there is any center in him despite the height. I could probably hold post position better than he can.

Which all works very well if we have a Cuz and WCS already on the roster. If Skal pans out, and if we can jsut please please turn this and keep Cuz, then the very "biggest" Skal would ever have to play would be next to Willie in an all-scrawny frontline that would need to focus on taking care of the boards. If all of that comes true, then the more important thing than having bulk will be how his lateral movement is -- can he stay in front of some 3s? I doubt he could start at SF at that height, but if you are going to be a 90lb weakling the next way you can contribute is at least actually staying in front of people and challenging with length.

I wonder if Skal can defend some of the taller SF's in short stretches? Durant is the guy I am thinking about. Durant and Skal are about the same size.

 

[funkykingston]

I wonder if Skal can defend some of the taller SF's in short stretches? Durant is the guy I am thinking about. Durant and Skal are about the same size.

Right now? Nope. But maybe in time. Skal has good mobility but not great/elite lateral quickness.

And this year he'd be hopeless against Durant. KD is pretty hard to stop but rather than trying to match his length I'd put Barnes on him. Durant can get frustrated with smaller, quick wings that get physical with him.

 

[funkykingston]

After this last gutpunch of a season I told myself to keep my expectations low. The mini-camp videos the Kings are putting out aren't helping with that.

http://www.nba.com/kings/summer-training-papagiannis

The first look at GP showed the same things we've seen from him, great size, very fluid, great hands Etc. It's hard to get too much intel from such a short video but his FT stroke is nice and he still has the bad habit of bringing the ball down low when attacking from the post. As his conditioning improves I see him being a contributor in limited minutes as a rookie.

Skal looked good too and clearly is primarily a face up player right now. Both guys were encouraging in their interviews too. The Kings have two long, teenage rookies who could potentially compliment each other very well as well as slot next to Boogie or Trill depending on what the team needs.

But what I like most is what I'm hearing from coach Joerger in terms of developing a tough defensive team, of trying to utilize the versatility of his bigs, especially mentioning Willie potentially imitating half court action from the high post. Good stuff.

A far cry from last summer where mostly I wondered if Karl & Cousins could work together and had concerns about the "faster is always better" approach the team was already starting to take.

This quote from Willie might be the most telling thing I've read in a while:

“As soon as mentally you realize that the coach is on your side and had the confidence that you can make that play, that’s when it just shuts off and you can get the hoop,” Cauley-Stein said. “You’ve been beaten for a whole year that you can’t make that play, you’re not supposed to make that play. And now it’s like, you are supposed to make that play. We need you to make that play. So you’re relearning how to hoop, honestly.”

It's a new day. Hopefully that leads to more Kings success.

 

[King Baller]

A new voice of leadership and guidance can make all the difference. It sounds like Willie is already on board with Coach Joerger which is a good thing. I see a bench platoon playing zone defense. Basiclly a forest of 7 foot trees who will lay the wood on opposing players in the paint.

 

[dude12]

Something ive been thinking about. If by chance that Gudaitis and or Mitrovic can prove in Summer League that they would be capable of coming over this year and being contributors and showing some upside, these two guys can become sweeteners in any upcoming trade involving Gay, Koufos or Ben to obtain another PG. I suppose that they wouldn't even have to come over this year but could be a guy who stays overseas and then comes next year....like Bogdanovich.

The flip side is that maybe these are 2 guys we have in the pipeline until we need them next year or the year after. I'm assuming they have been playing at a high level league overseas......those guys who are familiar with the level of competition they are in....can you shed light on where they have been playing?

 

[Blob]

This is why I see Skal as a very tall and long Small Forward, instead of a Power Forward or Center.

Watching tape on him, he looks more like Kevin Durant than Anthony Davis.

I think if he can develop his handles and his 3 point shot, we can see a very special player at Small Forward in the future.

I agree with you. I did not see many of his games at Kentucky. But this kid is NOT a center. And that could be one of the reasons he struggled. He's never going to be prototypical banger in the paint. That's not his game. He's a combo forward, which is exciting, because his size and athleticism is incredible. The challenge for Skal is going to be getting comfortable with his handle, facing up, making plays and putting the ball on the floor for 1-2 dribbles without getting stripped. Where Skal could play a role for this year is (1) running the floor (2) providing weak side defense and (3) playing a hustle game. I think guys with his length and agility can make plays in spot minutes. As long as he is not asked to bang down low against guys that can chuck him into the third row, he could surprise.

That said, I am WAY more confident in what George Papa can bring to the table. For 19 years old, his size and agility is incredible. Let me be the first to say I think this guy is going to be a stud. Usually a guy with his size and age, he's all limbs and disjointed motion and a train about to derail. But this kid is fluid with good hands and feet. He runs faster than Boogie did when he came into the league. He may run faster than Boogie does now. His extensive experience at relative age will serve him well. He's less likely to be intimidated by the NBA game because he's already played against guys in the mid 20s and 30s, versus the conventional NCAA kid who has only played against other kids. It is going to take time of course but I have hopes he will contribute soon, and can start to show he's ready starting on Friday.

 

[Jkbiker]

Does anyone know the actual Channels the 7pm Friday Game and 3:30 Sunday Game is actually broadcast on?

I can not find them on CCI (old surewest ) on any of the ESPN channels (CCI does not carry NBATV)

I looked at all the ESPN listings at ESPN.com - nothing
I looked at NBATV listings - nothing

I dont even know the channel to ask the local sports bar

I really dont want to watch on my computer

Cannot find the Broadcast schedule by each game on NBA.com

 

[pshn80]

Does anyone know the actual Channels the 7pm Friday Game and 3:30 Sunday Game is actually broadcast on?

I can not find them on CCI (old surewest ) on any of the ESPN channels (CCI does not carry NBATV)

I looked at all the ESPN listings at ESPN.com - nothing
I looked at NBATV listings - nothing

I dont even know the channel to ask the local sports bar

I really dont want to watch on my computer

Cannot find the Broadcast schedule by each game on NBA.com

A little help ..... Friday's game is not on ESPN, it's on NBATV. I have Cmcast and t is n there. Good luck.

 

[Blob]

Does anyone know the actual Channels the 7pm Friday Game and 3:30 Sunday Game is actually broadcast on?

I can not find them on CCI (old surewest ) on any of the ESPN channels (CCI does not carry NBATV)

I looked at all the ESPN listings at ESPN.com - nothing
I looked at NBATV listings - nothing

I dont even know the channel to ask the local sports bar

I really dont want to watch on my computer

Cannot find the Broadcast schedule by each game on NBA.com

TOR vs SAC is on NBA TV on 9PM CST on Friday. Last year the NBA made the games available on-line for like $10, but I guess they decided against it this year.

 

[Blob]

This quote from Willie might be the most telling thing I've read in a while:

“As soon as mentally you realize that the coach is on your side and had the confidence that you can make that play, that’s when it just shuts off and you can get the hoop,” Cauley-Stein said. “You’ve been beaten for a whole year that you can’t make that play, you’re not supposed to make that play. And now it’s like, you are supposed to make that play. We need you to make that play. So you’re relearning how to hoop, honestly.”

It's a new day. Hopefully that leads to more Kings success.

I love Willie, but I do think he's being a bit dramatic. Karl did restrict him, but it was an effort to bring him along slowly for his own good. I don't think the message to him was "you can't do this" it was more along the lines of we want you to play to your strengths and focus on defense, rebounding and hustle. And the year he had bears on the merits of that strategy. That said, I was like a lot of fans in that I questioned why he was not in games during crunch time and thought he could have been given a few more touches on offense, because when a player gets a shot up, he feels more involved and that can translate defensively. So sure Karl could have had more confidence and faith in him, but to for a head coach to actively undermine one of his own players and "beating him down mentally" sounds like hyperbole on part of the player. Of course it is convenient to kick a coach on his way at the door (or once he's out the door) for players and fans alike but I think that should be tempered with a little bit of objective reflection.

 

[sdballer]

for a head coach to actively undermine one of his own players and "beating him down mentally" sounds like hyperbole on part of the player. Of course it is convenient to kick a coach on his way at the door (or once he's out the door) for players and fans alike but I think that should be tempered with a little bit of objective reflection.

That's been the story on George Karl for most of his career

 

[Blob]

That's been the story on George Karl for most of his career

Allegedly, and there's a fine line between demanding coach (Pop) versus abusive coach (Karl?). I don't think either of us are close enough to situation to ascertain the difference. But I do know the guy who was dismissed as coach was a feeble old man with voice reduced to a whisper. He hardly seemed tyrannical with pleasant, disinterested and philosophical manner on sidelines and interviews. I also take exception to the idea that a coach would undermine his success by effectively telling a player "you suck". Karl may certainly been capable of being a Grade A a-hole, but he didn't want to go out the way he did. And sabotaging his own player would help to seal his demise. There are two sides in this context and I try to see both with the truth usually somewhere in the middle.

 

[funkykingston]

I love Willie, but I do think he's being a bit dramatic. Karl did restrict him, but it was an effort to bring him along slowly for his own good. I don't think the message to him was "you can't do this" it was more along the lines of we want you to play to your strengths and focus on defense, rebounding and hustle. And the year he had bears on the merits of that strategy. That said, I was like a lot of fans in that I questioned why he was not in games during crunch time and thought he could have been given a few more touches on offense, because when a player gets a shot up, he feels more involved and that can translate defensively. So sure Karl could have had more confidence and faith in him, but to for a head coach to actively undermine one of his own players and "beating him down mentally" sounds like hyperbole on part of the player. Of course it is convenient to kick a coach on his way at the door (or once he's out the door) for players and fans alike but I think that should be tempered with a little bit of objective reflection.

If it was a coach other than George Karl I'd probably agree with Willie being dramatic. But Karl has always been stubborn and only wanted players to play his way. His role for Cauley-Stein was to be a rim runner and the dump off man in the half court sets. I don't have to try hard to imagine him putting strict limits on what he felt Willie could do.

And remember that this is the same coach that seemed to pour cold water on his own guys after big games. When Curry had a solid outing against the Suns all he could muster was that Seth would "be around for a couple years" in the NBA. And when Willie put together some impressive stat lines he said that his game had been "blessed by other people making good plays" and that "It's easy to make dunks and lobs". By themselves I could explain away any of those comments. But taken as a whole you get what players have always said about Karl - he tends to poke at his own guys through the media and I've never understood why he does that.

 

[Blob]

If it was a coach other than George Karl I'd probably agree with Willie being dramatic. But Karl has always been stubborn and only wanted players to play his way. His role for Cauley-Stein was to be a rim runner and the dump off man in the half court sets. I don't have to try hard to imagine him putting strict limits on what he felt Willie could do.

And remember that this is the same coach that seemed to pour cold water on his own guys after big games. When Curry had a solid outing against the Suns all he could muster was that Seth would "be around for a couple years" in the NBA. And when Willie put together some impressive stat lines he said that his game had been "blessed by other people making good plays" and that "It's easy to make dunks and lobs". By themselves I could explain away any of those comments. But taken as a whole you get what players have always said about Karl - he tends to poke at his own guys through the media and I've never understood why he does that.

Fair points and I am not and was not a staunch defender of Karl. I was calling for him to be fired at the end of December after the loss to Philly and during the all-star break, NOT so much because of the system and his relationship with players, but because I didn't think he had the vitality or vigor to be a head coach anymore. My point regarding comment by Willie is there is a difference between being demanding (tough love) and mentally abusive ("beating him down"). I don't know if that line was crossed and I don't know if anyone can know that without being in the locker room or privy to private conversation. What you refer to is being condescending more than abusive. I guess when all is said and done let's just be thankful he's gone far away planting rose bushes and plotting vacations or whatever you do after executing duplicitous scheme against unsuspecting billionaire.

 

[funkykingston]

Fair points and I am not and was not a staunch defender of Karl. I was calling for him to be fired at the end of December after the loss to Philly and during the all-star break, NOT so much because of the system and his relationship with players, but because I didn't think he had the vitality or vigor to be a head coach anymore. My point regarding comment by Willie is there is a difference between being demanding (tough love) and mentally abusive ("beating him down"). I don't know if that line was crossed and I don't know if anyone can know that without being in the locker room or privy to private conversation. What you refer to is being condescending more than abusive. I guess when all is said and done let's just be thankful he's gone far away planting rose bushes and plotting vacations or whatever you do after executing duplicitous scheme against unsuspecting billionaire.

Yeah, condescending is a good way to put it. Karl has always been the master of the backhanded compliment. Just part of who he is. And while "beating him down" is surely a bit of an exaggeration, there is a huge difference between feeling like your coach is limiting you because he doesn't believe in you and feeling like your coach is asking you to expand your game because he does believe in you.

The Kings need to sweep away last year and change the culture.

Rondo, Boogie and Karl were a combustible mix last year that led to a lot of needless chaos. Karl has rightfully gotten criticism but Cousins deserves plenty of it too. And while Rondo didn't seem to be at the heart of chemistry/locker room issues, the reality is that he's always prided himself on arguing with his coaches, of being stubborn and only wanting to do things his way. Removing Karl and Rondo will help. But Cousins not only getting along with Joerger but learning to take some responsibility for his actions and see how he hurts the team with his behavior is going to be necessary for the team to improve further.

But right now I'm looking forward to seeing the Kings SL team. Our impressive rookie from last year. Three first round picks. A second rounder with a chance to stick. And two international players looking to break into the NBA. There will be a lot to watch for.

 

[Glenn]

The SL team should be very good. As a Kings' fan, I will take whatever I can get.

 

[jcwkings]

I just realized we traded Ray Mac for Isaiah Cousins. I will be interested to see this kid play. He has great size for PG position and is apparently a tenacious competitor and can hit spot shots. Guards usually tend to stand out more in Summer League so I think we will be able to see if this guy can play. His characteristics tick all the boxes of a Joerger type player so he at least has that going for him.

 

[The_Jamal]

I just realized we traded Ray Mac for Isaiah Cousins. I will be interested to see this kid play. He has great size for PG position and is apparently a tenacious competitor and can hit spot shots. Guards usually tend to stand out more in Summer League so I think we will be able to see if this guy can play. His characteristics tick all the boxes of a Joerger type player so he at least has that going for him.

It'll be interesting to get a closer look when he gets "unleashed" a bit out of the shadow of Buddy Hield. Fantastic shooter an elite athlete with elite size.

I might be wrong on this, but didn't he move to PG this season? Or did he just break out moreso this year?

 

[peacelate]

It'll be interesting to get a closer look when he gets "unleashed" a bit out of the shadow of Buddy Hield. Fantastic shooter an elite athlete with elite size.

I might be wrong on this, but didn't he move to PG this season? Or did he just break out moreso this year?

Actually, the knock on Cousins is that he isn't an elite athlete.

 

[206Fan]

I like Skal, but he's not a 3. That's putting unrealistic expectations that have never been warranted. He's a PF all the way who has a diverse, but extremely raw and undeveloped offensive arsenal. One of his best offensive games:

 

[206Fan]

I don't know that Cousins becomes anything more than backup PG. From a physical standpoint, he's pretty impressive. 6'4 194lbs. However, he's just an average athlete who lacks quickness at PG. He's a decent ball handler, but not much of a playmaker. He's a good shooter, but his shot selection needs work. I don't think he has the quickness to take the ball to the rim.

While it's a nice highlight vid, you can see him taking poor shots. For his first 2 shots, there are 19s left, and he opts for a contested jumper. Later, we see him settle for mid range jumpers instead of taking it to the hole. This is because he has trouble getting to the basket and finishing.

6'4 version of Seth Curry without the great basketball IQ? I think he'll become a very solid player. However, don't get your hopes up about him.. I hate to talk about draft position, but there's a reason why he was barely drafted. For every Draymond Green, there are 100 Tyler Honeycutts.

 

[Gilles]

iBoogie was at .404, .450, .416 3pt% with 86,8, 88.9, 61.3 in %assisted over the last 3 seasons with .804FT% in one of those, so an educated guess would be, that he's an elite C&S player with a passable pull-up 3. Cousins had 10+DReb% every year in college and 25 ast% his senior year, so there's probably enough to squeeze a role-playing combo-guard, able to play at both guard positions off the bench, out of his physical tools/skillset. If everything goes right, of course. With his relative inability to get to the rim/draw fouls and pedestrian ast% anything close to a real playmaker is out the door even before the start of his career though.
And IC is 195 pounds in under 6'5" body, not 6'7", so he's no Honeycutt.

 

[AL/kfan]

Does anyone know the actual Channels the 7pm Friday Game and 3:30 Sunday Game is actually broadcast on?

I can not find them on CCI (old surewest ) on any of the ESPN channels (CCI does not carry NBATV)

I looked at all the ESPN listings at ESPN.com - nothing
I looked at NBATV listings - nothing

I dont even know the channel to ask the local sports bar

I really dont want to watch on my computer

Cannot find the Broadcast schedule by each game on NBA.com

DIRECTV Kings/Toronto Friday 7PM channel 216

Kings/Houston Played on Sunday will be shown Monday at 1AM channel 216

Kings/New Orleans Monday 7PM channel 209



Hope this helps.

 

[CelticsFan]

I'm excited to see what WCS does. 2nd year players usually dominate SL I expect WCS to have that same impact

 

[206Fan]

iBoogie was at .404, .450, .416 3pt% with 86,8, 88.9, 61.3 in %assisted over the last 3 seasons with .804FT% in one of those, so an educated guess would be, that he's an elite C&S player with a passable pull-up 3. Cousins had 10+DReb% every year in college and 25 ast% his senior year, so there's probably enough to squeeze a role-playing combo-guard, able to play at both guard positions off the bench, out of his physical tools/skillset. If everything goes right, of course. With his relative inability to get to the rim/draw fouls and pedestrian ast% anything close to a real playmaker is out the door even before the start of his career though.
And IC is 195 pounds in under 6'5" body, not 6'7", so he's no Honeycutt.

I think his ceiling is a 6th man? Or maybe a starting SG? However, I read from DX that he wasn't really good in catch and shoot situations. Only converting on 33%. I only brought up the Draymond-Honeycutt thing because sometimes fans expect too much from 2nd rounders. It might be because of the success of guys like Draymond, IT, Green, etc. For everyone one successful player like them, there are 20 other guys in their draft(2nd round) who end up in overseas or DL. I think Cousins can become a solid player. He's got a good head on his shoulders and he's a hardworker.

I'm excited to see what WCS does. 2nd year players usually dominate SL I expect WCS to have that same impact

I'm really excited to see how all of our bigs do. I wonder if WCS has practiced his jumper at all. I don't think he has that in his arsenal yet, but it'll be interesting to see if he takes any in the SL.

 

[King Baller]

I think his ceiling is a 6th man? Or maybe a starting SG? However, I read from DX that he wasn't really good in catch and shoot situations. Only converting on 33%. I only brought up the Draymond-Honeycutt thing because sometimes fans expect too much from 2nd rounders. It might be because of the success of guys like Draymond, IT, Green, etc. For everyone one successful player like them, there are 20 other guys in their draft(2nd round) who end up in overseas or DL. I think Cousins can become a solid player. He's got a good head on his shoulders and he's a hardworker.


I'm really excited to see how all of our bigs do. I wonder if WCS has practiced his jumper at all. I don't think he has that in his arsenal yet, but it'll be interesting to see if he takes any in the SL.

What I really like is that Joerger is going to be right there coaching these guys up and helping with their games. They will get that good Coach-Player relationship going from the onset.

A Players Coach understands that guys are going to make mistakes. The key is allowing them the opportunity to make them and then coaching them through them in a positive way.