Do Rockets need Rudy?

[hrdboild]

Well they only played Shumpert 24 min a game of the bench during the regular seasons and only 15 min during this years playoffs. So its not like he is a center part of their team. The reason is probalby his bad shooting this year, as he shot 3s at .295% this season. Combine that with the fact that is locked up for 10+ mil a year and they don't need perimeter defense as bad as we and I can see why they would move him. Moreover, there were rumours at the trade deadline that the Cavs are open to dealing Shumpert and are interested in Mclemore (http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/4297/trade-chatter-is-kevin-love-untouchable). But of course as these are only rumours they may decline that deal.

Well if throwing in Koufos gets this deal done, why not?

That's exactly my deal as well. Koufos and McLemore for Shumpert. We get a little bit more cap space (12 million out, 9.7 million in) and they get a backup big (or potentially a Mozgoz replacement) and a young SG who Lebron seems to like a lot. Shumpert has been a poor fit for them. He was supposed to be the key piece of the New York trade but JR Smith's shooting has kept him in the lineup and Shumpert is better used as a defensive roleplayer in a starting lineup with a little more freedom to create with the ball. Seems like a good deal for both teams to me. I'm really fixated on getting Shumpert at this point. It's the first deal I would make this summer. Rondo/Shumpert looks like a poor shooting backcourt but Rondo was actually shockingly good this year as a shooter and Shumpert does have one season of 40% shooting on his resume in New York (playing for Mike Woodson...) so it could actually end up being a surprisingly good backcourt on both ends.

As for the other part of your above scenario, I'm not big on the Ryan Anderson idea because I don't think he gives us enough of what we need to justify the expenditure. He's going to be very expensive because Stan Van Gundy is going to go after him hard to plug into his system. I was actually hoping we could use this to our advantage and try to package Belinelli and Collison in a deal for Stanley Johnson and Jodie Meeks. The wink-wink part of the deal is that we step aside and let them sign Ryan Anderson without a bidding war and in return we get a young SF to replace Rudy Gay. They need a backup PG badly and Collison is arguably the best possible option for them (with his torrid shooting this season). Jodie Meeks is sunk cost, so moving him is good for them too. He sat out the whole year and Belinelli is a comprable replacement with more years on his deal. This also gets us even more cap space (11.5 million out, 9.5 million in) and we could try to swap Jodie Meeks (and $3 million cash) for meaningless second round draft picks to get 6 million more. That sets us up for a run at Al Horford (starting at 23 million a year?).

I was going to start a thread at some point with my off-season plan, but this is the bulk of it. The numbers work though I was assuming $13 million a year to re-sign Rondo and that's on the low end of his expected cost (12-16 million a year is what I expect he'll sign for).

 

[twslam07]

Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins was one of the best 5 man units 2 seasons ago, and I think most would agree that Cauley-Stein is an upgrade over Thompson (or at least will be in the future). So to me, that leaves us with a lot of emphasis on improving the SG position to really shore up our team going into this year.

I'd trade McLemore/Koufos for Snell/Gibson (basically a trade that gives us 2 bigs that compliment Cousins rather than Koufos having to push Cousins out of position)
I'd trade Belinelli/2nd for immediate cap space

That right there gives us ~$31 mil in cap space including our pick and minimum rookie level contracts. In this scenario, either Dunn or Hield making it to us would probably be the best scenario. If we draft Dunn, you have Collison/Dunn next year and you sign a SG and have a pretty potent backcourt going forward. If we draft Hield, I'd look at bringing Curry back as the backup to Collison and sign a SG to round out the guard rotation.

Collison/Dunn
Crabbe/Snell/Anderson
Gay/Casspi/Butler
Cauley-Stein/Gibson
Cousins

or

Collison/Curry
Crabbe/Hield/Snell/Anderson
Gay/Casspi/Butler
Cauley-Stein/Gibson
Cousins

Then you all of a sudden have upgraded from a Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins lineup to a Collison/Crabbe/Gay/Cauley-Stein/Cousins lineup. Add in the right coach and that team is competing.

I think I would like the scenario where we get Dunn more just because having Dunn, Crabbe, Cauley-Stein, & Cousins would be a great, young core to work with while having no overlap in positions (Crabbe/Hield)

 

[funkykingston]

Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins was one of the best 5 man units 2 seasons ago, and I think most would agree that Cauley-Stein is an upgrade over Thompson (or at least will be in the future). So to me, that leaves us with a lot of emphasis on improving the SG position to really shore up our team going into this year.

I'd trade McLemore/Koufos for Snell/Gibson (basically a trade that gives us 2 bigs that compliment Cousins rather than Koufos having to push Cousins out of position)
I'd trade Belinelli/2nd for immediate cap space

That right there gives us ~$31 mil in cap space including our pick and minimum rookie level contracts. In this scenario, either Dunn or Hield making it to us would probably be the best scenario. If we draft Dunn, you have Collison/Dunn next year and you sign a SG and have a pretty potent backcourt going forward. If we draft Hield, I'd look at bringing Curry back as the backup to Collison and sign a SG to round out the guard rotation.

Collison/Dunn
Crabbe/Snell/Anderson
Gay/Casspi/Butler
Cauley-Stein/Gibson
Cousins

or

Collison/Curry
Crabbe/Hield/Snell/Anderson
Gay/Casspi/Butler
Cauley-Stein/Gibson
Cousins

Then you all of a sudden have upgraded from a Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins lineup to a Collison/Crabbe/Gay/Cauley-Stein/Cousins lineup. Add in the right coach and that team is competing.

I think I would like the scenario where we get Dunn more just because having Dunn, Crabbe, Cauley-Stein, & Cousins would be a great, young core to work with while having no overlap in positions (Crabbe/Hield)

I wouldn't mind that but I'd still be tempted to trade Gay. I just don't think he's a net positive and if he could bring back role players that fit better (better shooters and/or better defenders) I'd take it. In fact, I'd still do a S&T for Anderson and then sign Moreland at the minimum as an emergency big.

I love the idea of a Collison/Dunn PG rotation. I'd like to re-sign Curry because any two of them can share the backcourt if desired and they can all shoot.

Of course, as I said earlier I'm pretty sure the Kings plan to re-sign Rondo. I'm not in love with that plan but given how much Cousins likes having Rondo and the fact that Vlade says he was his main target in free agency last year I think they want to keep him even at the price tag this offseason will create.

There are a lot more options available if Rondo isn't re-signed but he's also a bird in the hand.

 

[hrdboild]

I'm no expert, but I think a combination of Rudy + the pick could net us something very solid in return. With that said however, I don't think Rudy on his own is worth as much as people around here would like to think. He played poorly this year and he isn't getting any younger. Now how much of that was GK system neutralizing what he does best....eh....that's to be determined. I still think he has it in him for 2-3 more years of high level play before he starts to fall off. That may be all the time we need him to play at that level too. Wait for the rise of WCS and DMC dominance and hope Ben comes along lol.

Oh yeah, and any value we get back from Rudy is going to have to make us better in the sense of "need a number 2 scorer who can do what Rudy does but much better". I just don't see many players around the league that are available that match that description. It would be best to keep Rudy if you can't get back someone like that. We all saw how hard DMC struggled some nights to keep the team when Rudy was out. He cannot be the only scorer.

Ben should be the one to go if anyone. If he mails it in this year again his value will plummet even more. I may be foolish but I think I wanna give marco one more year to prove himself. I wanna see if it was GK that was making him play like trash or was it the Spurs system making him seem better than he is.

It's unlikely we'll be able to trade Rudy for a proven #2 scorer. Presumably whoever is trading for him is looking for exactly that. But the cap going up this year makes this interesting because while you can't trade Rudy 1-to-1 for an upgrade on the wing, what you can do is trade him to create cap space and then add that cap space to the approx. 26 million in cap space we already have and that means you can replace his production with a top free agent scorer instead. In other words, trade Rudy for a different kind of player (let's say a bench guard or a backup big) then get your Rudy replacement in free agency. That allows you to shop Collison or Koufos to fill a need as well.

As for what we can get in return, we'll probably have to lower our expectations. Nobody thinks Rudy is a #1 option at this point. Super-analytic driven teams won't touch him. Teams with a heap of cap space probably think they can do better on the free agent market so they'll want to wait and see -- which we can't afford to do. If we want to target a max player we need to place that phone call right at midnight when free agency officially begins. I'm thinking if we target a player with some significant flaw which makes them expendable (expiring contract, injury history, positional redundancy on their current team) we might get a taker. That's why I like the fit with New Orleans. They have nobody at SF and all three of those "flaws" point to Tyreke Evans being available. There are probably other options out there, but I like that idea so I haven't put much effort into looking for them yet.

 

[Glenn]

Why would Cleveland give us Shumpert for McLemore?

This is a jumping off point for me to state my objection to any scenario that depends on another team doing what we want. I prefer open ended comments like "we should unload Ben for someone." If people don't mind a giggle, wouldn't it be something interesting if Ben broke loose and found his game in 2-5 years and became what I think a lot of us think he could be. The guy IS athletic. Anyway, I now return you to your normal rational cogitating.

 

[bajaden]

Rudy for Jrue

Only problem is that Jrue spends as much time on the disabled list as the does in the starting lineup. Would love to have him if he could stay healthy.

 

[bajaden]

Very much along the lines of what I'd do, though my first thought was calling the Hawks to see if they would trade Sefalosha for McLemore. Like Ben, Thabo is in the last year of his deal. He's also 30 and coming off injury but he knows his role as a 3&D wing. If Hield, Dunn or Brown drop to #8 (assuming the Kings don't move up) then I grab them. Otherwise I'd either look to move the pick or possibly package Collison with the Kings pick to move up a couple slots and get one of those guys.

In essence I wouldn't worry about a second scorer and count on Cousins and Rondo to open up lots of outside looks.

Is that a recipe for success? I don't know. But it's the best path forward I can see if the Kings are re-signing Rondo and building around he and Cousins.

On the other hand, this is a terrible draft year for the Kings to look at possibly blowing the whole thing up. I think Ingram will be a nice roleplayer or possibly high level starter but I don't see him as a building block. And Simmons might be worth building around but (1) he'd absolutely have to develop his jumper (2) I worry about his competitive drive (same thing with Ingram) and (3) he's a very odd piece to build around. You essentially have to surround him with shooters and let him play PG.

So the Kings are between a rock and a hard place. If Vlade and Catanella can hire the right coach and make the right roster moves to field a competitive team next year I'll be impressed and happy.

It's hard to speculate who we should go after without knowing for sure what kind of team Vlade wants to build. Last off season, I think he was trying to acquire players that fit Karl's vision. Problem is, we already had a couple of players, Gay and Cousins that didn't fit his vision. Point is, it wasn't Vlade's vision. Or I assume it wasn't. Now it's a different story. I have to assume that Vlade has a vision for what he wants the team to look like. I could venture a guess, but it would just be a guess. Who he hires as his coach might give us a clue. But let's assume that he wants to build a team that looks similar to the team he played on when he was here. Right off the bat, Rondo doesn't fit that team. Too ball dominate.

Bibby played off the ball more than he did with it. Just a fact. He brought the ball up and passed into either Vlade or Webber, and the offense ran through them. We have our Webber, or Vlade if you will in Cousins. He fits perfectly into that vision. So my guess is that you don't resign Rondo. You try and sign Anderson, and he becomes your Peja. If Dunn slides to us, he would fit fine. He's good at playing either way, and he defends. If not, both Collison and Curry are capable of playing off the ball. At this point, were missing our Christie. If you can acquire Sefalosha, you might have a close equivalent.

Pure speculation on my part, and of course your never going to totally replicate that team. But you can come close, and close will get us a lot more wins and into the playoffs. But hey, Vlade may be leaning in a totally different direction.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

This is a jumping off point for me to state my objection to any scenario that depends on another team doing what we want.

Exactly. People will steady talk about how our players are trash, and then they stay coming up with these trade scenarios which involve someone giving us a player of value for our so-called trash. And I keep wanting to know, why would any team ever do that?

 

[twslam07]

I wouldn't mind that but I'd still be tempted to trade Gay. I just don't think he's a net positive and if he could bring back role players that fit better (better shooters and/or better defenders) I'd take it. In fact, I'd still do a S&T for Anderson and then sign Moreland at the minimum as an emergency big.

I love the idea of a Collison/Dunn PG rotation. I'd like to re-sign Curry because any two of them can share the backcourt if desired and they can all shoot.

Of course, as I said earlier I'm pretty sure the Kings plan to re-sign Rondo. I'm not in love with that plan but given how much Cousins likes having Rondo and the fact that Vlade says he was his main target in free agency last year I think they want to keep him even at the price tag this offseason will create.

There are a lot more options available if Rondo isn't re-signed but he's also a bird in the hand.

We had a great lineup that included Gay. Let's just say I have a hard thinking that a lineup consisting of Mclemore & Thompson was being held back by Gay.

Now, would I be totally upset if Gay was moved? No, but in my eyes, we have 3 pieces from a lineup that was very good (Collison, Gay, Cousins) and an upgrade on one of the players from that team (Cauley-Stein vs. Thompson). It seems much more realistic/attainable to only upgrade the SG spot and expect that (under the right coach) that team will be successful.

I really like the scoring versatility from this lineup. You have 4 players who can all score with ball in their hands, but two of them know their roles and willing to defer (Collison & Crabbe), and if Cauley-Stein keeps developing his offensive game, you could have another scoring threat on the floor. It would make for a tough team to defend. If Cauley-Stein continues to show he can hit his jump shot on a consistent basis, then you have 5 players who can shoot. Then on the defensive end, Gay is really the only weak link. However, he has shown he can defend at a high level when he wants to which makes me think under the right coach, during crunch time, or playing in the playoffs, he could turn it on.

 

[hrdboild]

Exactly. People will steady talk about how our players are trash, and then they stay coming up with these trade scenarios which involve someone giving us a player of value for our so-called trash. And I keep wanting to know, why would any team ever do that?

In this particular case, there was a rumor at the trade deadline that Cleveland was interested in both Koufos (they desperately need size and defense inside) and McLemore (remember Lebron tweeted that McLemore was going to be a great player on draft night) and they were trying to trade Shumpert. So there's at least reason to believe that Cleveland is still interested in both of those players and Shumpert may still be on the trading block. It's not just fantasizing, it's connecting the dots of what we've already seen reported from multiple sources (and none of them are Ailene Voisin).

 

[Glenn]

In this particular case, there was a rumor at the trade deadline that Cleveland was interested in both Koufos (they desperately need size and defense inside) and McLemore (remember Lebron tweeted that McLemore was going to be a great player on draft night) and they were trying to trade Shumpert. So there's at least reason to believe that Cleveland is still interested in both of those players and Shumpert may still be on the trading block. It's not just fantasizing, it's connecting the dots of what we've already seen reported from multiple sources (and none of them are Ailene Voisin).

Off topic a tad but how would you like to play for a team that wants to trade you and makes that fact public?

 

[hrdboild]

Off topic a tad but how would you like to play for a team that wants to trade you and makes that fact public?

It's kindof an open secret at this point with professional sports. Every player knows their name will come up in trade talks. Rondo was in Boston for 8 seasons and his name came up in trade talks for every single one of them. So it has to be expected, just another part of the job. I would say though that if a franchise goes out of their way to demonstrate that I'm their guy to the end and they're not trading me for anything, that would make a big difference for me personally. So I guess trade rumors are expected, but loyalty is still appreciated. I'd like for Sacramento to be that kind of a franchise. But then you also have to stick with it or it doesn't mean anything. Sure Webber's your guy now but is he still your guy after he blows out his knee? Sticking with somebody through that actually matters but it may not be in the best interest of the team so you have to decide where your priorities are.

It seems like the McLemore rumors were coming from his agent though -- trying to extract his client from a difficult situation. Vlade didn't end up making any trade deadline moves. Stauskas, Thompson, and Landry are the players he moved last year and I don't think we heard much about that trade until it was already happening.

 

[Glenn]

I have no problem with an agent airing the info nor should his client.

 

[randymoss1881]

I'd check if the Hornets want him. Offer them Gay/8 for MKG and there pick.

Another one would be Gay/8 for Bledsoe/Tucker. Than sign and trade Ben for Matt Barnes.

Collison/curry
Bledsoe/Marco
Barnes/Casspi
Anderson/WCS
DMC/KK

 

[datamanwes]

It's hard to speculate who we should go after without knowing for sure what kind of team Vlade wants to build. Last off season, I think he was trying to acquire players that fit Karl's vision. Problem is, we already had a couple of players, Gay and Cousins that didn't fit his vision. Point is, it wasn't Vlade's vision. Or I assume it wasn't. Now it's a different story. I have to assume that Vlade has a vision for what he wants the team to look like. I could venture a guess, but it would just be a guess. Who he hires as his coach might give us a clue. But let's assume that he wants to build a team that looks similar to the team he played on when he was here. Right off the bat, Rondo doesn't fit that team. Too ball dominate.

Bibby played off the ball more than he did with it. Just a fact. He brought the ball up and passed into either Vlade or Webber, and the offense ran through them. We have our Webber, or Vlade if you will in Cousins. He fits perfectly into that vision. So my guess is that you don't resign Rondo. You try and sign Anderson, and he becomes your Peja. If Dunn slides to us, he would fit fine. He's good at playing either way, and he defends. If not, both Collison and Curry are capable of playing off the ball. At this point, were missing our Christie. If you can acquire Sefalosha, you might have a close equivalent.

Pure speculation on my part, and of course your never going to totally replicate that team. But you can come close, and close will get us a lot more wins and into the playoffs. But hey, Vlade may be leaning in a totally different direction.

Weird as I was thinking this the other day and came up with the exact same conclusion about the type of team Vlade would want to build even down to Anderson and Sefalosha as the targets we would need to go after.

 

[206Fan]

How about Rudy Gay+8th pick for Jae Crowder+23rd pick? It gives us an extra $7million in cap space.

According to a piece STR did, they projected us to have salary space of around $23.9 including our 1st round cap space(and assuming we renounce our mid-level and bi-annual). Since we'd be trading our 8th pick, Our cap would be around $25million. With the opting out of Acy+Curry, we'd now have $27million. Add this with the Gay trade, we'd have $34million in cap space.

That would be enough to max out 1 player, and go after another good player.

I think we should heavily consider Evan Fournier. He's a ball handling SG/SF who can shoot the 3. He's extremely skilled and fits perfectly alongside Cousins as the #2 option. We can try to use the remaining cap space on other guys.

Evan Fournier for $21.3million
Jeremy Lin or Matthew Delledova for $7million
Jon Leur for $7million
Chuck Hayes for Vet Min
Draft Wade Baldwin IV at 23
Draft Zach Auguste at 59

Darren Collison/Matthew Delledova
Evan Fournier/Ben McLemore/Marco Belinelli*
Jae Crowder/Omri Casspi/James Anderson
Willie Cauely-Stein/Jon Leur/Zach Auguste
DeMarcus Cousins/Kosta Kofus/Chuck Hayes



That looks like a playoff team.

 

[randymoss1881]

How about Rudy Gay+8th pick for Jae Crowder+23rd pick? It gives us an extra $7million in cap space.

According to a piece STR did, they projected us to have salary space of around $23.9 including our 1st round cap space(and assuming we renounce our mid-level and bi-annual). Since we'd be trading our 8th pick, Our cap would be around $25million. With the opting out of Acy+Curry, we'd now have $27million. Add this with the Gay trade, we'd have $34million in cap space.

That would be enough to max out 1 player, and go after another good player.

I think we should heavily consider Evan Fournier. He's a ball handling SG/SF who can shoot the 3. He's extremely skilled and fits perfectly alongside Cousins as the #2 option. We can try to use the remaining cap space on other guys.

Evan Fournier for $21.3million
Jeremy Lin or Matthew Delledova for $7million
Jon Leur for $7million
Chuck Hayes for Vet Min
Draft Wade Baldwin IV at 23
Draft Zach Auguste at 59

Darren Collison/Matthew Delledova
Evan Fournier/Ben McLemore/Marco Belinelli*
Jae Crowder/Omri Casspi/James Anderson
Willie Cauely-Stein/Jon Leur/Zach Auguste
DeMarcus Cousins/Kosta Kofus/Chuck Hayes



That looks like a playoff team.

Crowder?! Come on man that crap ain't happening.

 

[206Fan]

Crowder?! Come on man that poopoo ain't happening.

Why not? We're giving them our 8th pick too. I think the Celtics would rather have Jaylen Brown than Taurean Prince...

 

[randymoss1881]

Why not? We're giving them our 8th pick too. I think the Celtics would rather have Jaylen Brown than Taurean Prince...

Nobody is trading Crowder to get Gay that pick don't mean crap if it's not top 2.

 

[alden.viado]

I am at the point where I wonder if Rudy Gay is a net negative for the Kings. He is a ball stopper, his game is predicated on using an ISO to work his way to the basket or to rise up for a 10-15 footer. He struggled in George Karl's offense because Karl hates midrange jumpers and wanted only threes or attacks in the paint. Take a look at the difference in Gay's shot charts between last year and this year:

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/

As we all know, there's a reason most analytics guys don't like Rudy. When left to his own devices he takes what are considered to be poor shots. Moreover he doesn't space the floor for Cousins and his defense is very inconsistent because his effort is very inconsistent. Rudy also is not a guy who rises to challenges. When he's made the first option his efficiency plummets. When he's faced with a top notch defender, he struggles to score (which is understandable) but he also doesn't find other ways to help his team.

Despite my Collison/Bazemore example above I've become resigned to the idea that the Kings will very likely re-sign Rondo. And Vlade will give it one more go (with HIS coach) assembling a team around Cousins. If that's the case then two of your starters are Rondo and Cousins and there is a desperate need for the remaining players on the court to create space. E

So let's say Rondo signs a deal starting at $15.5 million -the Kings may overpay but they shouldn't, the market for Rajon won't be big and if somebody offers him $19 million a year then I hope Vlade lets him walk. Anyway, assuming Butler opts out, the Kings waive Dukan, renounce Moreland and taking into account the dead money from Wayne Ellington and the cap hold for the 8th pick in the draft the Kings would have:

Cousins
Rondo
Gay
Koufos
Belinelli
Collison
McLemore
Cauley-Stein
Casspi
Anderson*
Draft pick

And a little under $10 million in cap room.

Even though he doesn't create space, I don't move Cauley-Stein. He works well next to Cousins and he can also be the center in more of a running lineup. And I think the potential is there for him to develop a consistent midrange or even outside jumper. I also don't move Casspi. He's signed on the cheap, has become a great spot up shooter from 3 and brings a lot of energy. And though they can always cut him, the Kings are most likely stuck with Anderson's salary for next season which is why he's marked with an asterisk.

In my mind that means the team has

Rondo
Cousins
Cauley-Stein
Casspi

and Gay, Koufos, Belinelli, Collison, McLemore and the lottery pick are all players you either keep or use as trade assets to build around them/open up cap room to sign players.

If that's the scenario what do you do?

1) Draft a SG
2) I would sign& trade for Ryan Anderson using Rudy Gay
3) free up space trading away KK and BMac get a back up SF in return for one of them
4) Re-sign Q-Acy and Seth
5) Sign Arturas Gudaitis as our back up C
6) Try to bring Caron back (hopefully with a new coach he'll stay). Much needed vet and Cuz has respect for the guy or Sign Matt Barnes (sac native, rumor is he wants to play in Cali again. You can cross out the clippers and lakers as he's never go there again)

C - Cuz/Gudaitis
PF - WCS/Anderson/Acy
SF - Casspi/Bulter or Barnes/ 3rd stringer
SG - draft pick/Bellinelli/Anderson
PG - Rondo/Collison/Curry