George Karl - Once and always great? (split)

I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#61
Call it what you want. This season has been a friction of forces, and we can't take too much away from it. The answer? It's simple. Cut out the cancer. Either it's Karl and Cousins, or just Cousins. But you can't keep Cousins if you fire Karl. That will sink our franchise even deeper in the mud, and will surely be a huge red flag to all sought after coaches. WARNING: STAY AWAY.

Just cut out the cancer. Before he walks for nothing.
 
#62
You'll find the odd one out of the equation is this organization and it's players. Karl can't have become what you think he is because he had won COTY only 2-3 years ago. He's the same coach he's always been, just as Adelman didn't magically become bad in Minnesota, or Phil Jackson in 2005, or Greg Pop in his first year. He's still the same guy, the same coach.

I don't just believe coaches change as soon as they have a losing season. A bit of competence would do this franchise some good. It's not going to send a good message if we fire Karl. Any chance of hiring a big time coach would be gone. Thibs would most definitely be out of the question.
So we can't get a big time coach if the team fires Karl but you can't a big time coach if he's still your coach. Damned if you do, according to you and damned if we don't according to me.

You say yourself that he's the same coach that he's always been and that you don't believe coaches change as soon as they have a losing season. That's part of the problem, he hasn't and appears refusing to change to the circumstances he has. He has the player he has and he's not running a system that fits them best. A bit of competence would do this franchise good. A coach that is competent would adapt to his players and have them play to their strengths not to his system.

He begged and campaigned for this job and the team took him with all the baggage from his previous stops. He stayed true to himself AND his baggage. And the fans and team has suffered as a result.

Since he is this great coach according to you and deserved utmost respect, why did nobody else call on him when he was available?
 
#63
Call it what you want. This season has been a friction of forces, and we can't take too much away from it. The answer? It's simple. Cut out the cancer. Either it's Karl and Cousins, or just Cousins. But you can't keep Cousins if you fire Karl. That will sink our franchise even deeper in the mud, and will surely be a huge red flag to all sought after coaches. WARNING: STAY AWAY.

Just cut out the cancer. Before he walks for nothing.
Cousins either way? I think you have it backwards, it is Karl irregardless and possibly Cousins if the godfather deal is offered. And Cousins only if it's a godfather deal. Now if at the trade deadline next year the team is still not showing and sustaining hope for the future then you cut cords. At that point, you still have the leverage.

I don't bow at the alter of either Karl or Cousins. But if I'm keeping one, it will be Cousins ten times out of ten.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#65
George Karl is currently the worst coach in the NBA. I can't deny his resume. But we are dealing in the right now. And the right now, this moment, it's toxic waste bad.

I don't think there's a coach in the league doing less with more. He's got a current all star, all NBA player. Another 4 time all star in the starting lineup. A career 20 ppt who used to be as reliable as it gets.

And the team has lost 5 in a row and is in a horrible free fall in all ways. He's failed to develop youth. He's failed to connect with his stars (forget Demarcus for a second, what the **** happened to Rudy?). He's failed to connect with his non stars. He's failed to connect with the fans and the media (minus his spokesperson Ailene). Everyone. Karl is on an island right now.

And for me, I'm not mad at George. Not anymore. It's sadness. It's very hard to watch someone great become mediocre, or worse. To go from the loudest, biggest personality in any room, to a barely audible whisper. It's uncomfortable for everyone.

I like this lyric from a favorite band of mine.

'Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it.
For you the blind, who once could see,
The bell tolls for thee.''

I can hear the bells ringing calling George home to his family. It's time to go. He's hardly the last great coach, great player, to have it end with a whimper. There's no shame in it.

But the end has to come. And sometimes someone has to tell them it's over.

That's you Vlade. Good luck.
This is very accurate especially the part about Karlnot connecting. And the lyrics are from Rush, the album is Signals, Losing It is the song.....that's a fairly accurate and appropriate song to put to a video of Kings lowlights with shots of Karl throughout the video.
 
#66
Call it what you want. This season has been a friction of forces, and we can't take too much away from it. The answer? It's simple. Cut out the cancer. Either it's Karl and Cousins, or just Cousins. But you can't keep Cousins if you fire Karl. That will sink our franchise even deeper in the mud, and will surely be a huge red flag to all sought after coaches. WARNING: STAY AWAY.

Just cut out the cancer. Before he walks for nothing.
The flaw is that other players havent performed under karl yet cousins has. Your not firing karl because of cousins. Your firing karl because everyone but cousins has under performed.
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#67
Cousins either way? I think you have it backwards, it is Karl irregardless and possibly Cousins if the godfather deal is offered. And Cousins only if it's a godfather deal. Now if at the trade deadline next year the team is still not showing and sustaining hope for the future then you cut cords. At that point, you still have the leverage.

I don't bow at the alter of either Karl or Cousins. But if I'm keeping one, it will be Cousins ten times out of ten.
So you'd keep the career loser and egomaniac over the career winner who was coaching before Demarcus was born? Usually you stick the with player, but even if Karl had never signed here, I 100% believe we'd still be having this conversation about Demarcus. Quite frankly it doesn't matter what coach, with a guy like Cousins it doesn't leave much room for anyone else. I can understand firing Karl. Don't think it's wise to go one and done with a HOF coach like him, but this is not unusual for coaches. But I don't understand keeping Cousins. He is the biggest issue and has been for 6 years now. I don't want to have to endure another cancerous year of wasted Kings basketball lead by lead man Demarcus.

There is no doubt in my mind if we keep Cousins, this time next year we'll be in exactly the same position we are now. I guarantee it.
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#68
There is nothing surer than a Demarcus Cousins Sacramento Kings lottery bound year. I'd bet my life on it.
 
#71
So you'd keep the career loser and egomaniac over the career winner who was coaching before Demarcus was born? Usually you stick the with player, but even if Karl had never signed here, I 100% believe we'd still be having this conversation about Demarcus. Quite frankly it doesn't matter what coach, with a guy like Cousins it doesn't leave much room for anyone else. I can understand firing Karl. Don't think it's wise to go one and done with a HOF coach like him, but this is not unusual for coaches. But I don't understand keeping Cousins. He is the biggest issue and has been for 6 years now. I don't want to have to endure another cancerous year of wasted Kings basketball lead by lead man Demarcus.

There is no doubt in my mind if we keep Cousins, this time next year we'll be in exactly the same position we are now. I guarantee it.
Yes, I would keep Demarcus over Karl. My opinion, could be right and it could be wrong. Vlade assembled a team he thinks should win and it happens not to fit Karl. I think this team has talent, not contender talent but talent. I would like to see what Vlade's team could do with a coach that is on the same page as him.

Demarcus has his issues. But so do most of the other major stars. Winning makes those issues more bearable. I don't put in the category of cancer, just in the category of a difficult personality to manage.
 
#72
So you'd keep the career loser and egomaniac over the career winner who was coaching before Demarcus was born? Usually you stick the with player, but even if Karl had never signed here, I 100% believe we'd still be having this conversation about Demarcus. Quite frankly it doesn't matter what coach, with a guy like Cousins it doesn't leave much room for anyone else. I can understand firing Karl. Don't think it's wise to go one and done with a HOF coach like him, but this is not unusual for coaches. But I don't understand keeping Cousins. He is the biggest issue and has been for 6 years now. I don't want to have to endure another cancerous year of wasted Kings basketball lead by lead man Demarcus.

There is no doubt in my mind if we keep Cousins, this time next year we'll be in exactly the same position we are now. I guarantee it.
Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#74
So you'd keep the career loser and egomaniac over the career winner who was coaching before Demarcus was born? Usually you stick the with player, but even if Karl had never signed here, I 100% believe we'd still be having this conversation about Demarcus. Quite frankly it doesn't matter what coach, with a guy like Cousins it doesn't leave much room for anyone else. I can understand firing Karl. Don't think it's wise to go one and done with a HOF coach like him, but this is not unusual for coaches. But I don't understand keeping Cousins. He is the biggest issue and has been for 6 years now. I don't want to have to endure another cancerous year of wasted Kings basketball lead by lead man Demarcus.

There is no doubt in my mind if we keep Cousins, this time next year we'll be in exactly the same position we are now. I guarantee it.
He may have been a great coach once. I have an old HP computer that was great once, too. I'm not using it now for the simple reason technology has passed it by. I feel the same way about George Karl.
 
#75
I find it funny some are using a "COTY" award to say Karl can coach in the league still. If that is true, why aren't teams calling Mike Brown to be head coach?
 
#76
Michael Malone only got to coach about 1 month of real basketball with the Kings.

George Karl has had a completely stable roster all season long. No changes. Most of the guys established vets from good teams.

Michael Malone's first season as coach featured 23 players shuffling through town, only 3 of whom were 30 or older, 17 different starters, only one of whom started more than 61 games, 3 major trades etc. That was no test of coaching ability. That was open tryouts.
The fact that this had to be said is embarrassing to this site. Everybody in the damn league backs Malone as a excellent coach. Cp3/Lebron/Pop all these guys and other back him. He did us a favor coming here he'd be winning rings right now if he stayed in GS.


And to tge guy that thinks Karl will get another job I I figt even know what to say to you. I've never in my life seen a coach on tv beg for a job for a month to get hired but somehow after proving he's washed up he'd get hired. Comical
 
#77
LOL that the only thing Karl proponents can point to is how good he used to be. I can't believe we have 1 page, let alone 3 pages dedicated to this conversation. I was one of the people that reluctantly wanted Karl here. I did not like Karl when he was with Seattle. I thought he was pompous and arrogant. Guess what, he still is. The problem is, he is coupling that with lackluster coaching from an energy and involvement (most likely due to a combination of health and age) AND he's is completely unwilling to compromise his style of play both offensively and defensively when it's obvious it isn't working.

Here are things that are as close to facts as you can have.

Offense: There are very few plays run, ever. They play the dribble drive which dumbed down is a fancy way to say organized street ball. It's fun to watch when it works, but facing elite defenses it simply is garbage. I actually really like it, it bursts. I think that it's effective if they can get to it within the first 8 seconds of the shot clock. If they can't they should have a number of different sets with ACTUAL plays, that they can change too. They do not have this. Karl has proven on his end of game plays, that he can draw up some pretty damn good sets and plays. Their post up play is one play. Cross screen for Cousins, or sometimes gay with the 2 guard. Post him up, everyone else watch. They run this 8-10 X a game.

Defense: It's switching modified zone. The first Dallas game when Collison was switched onto Nowitzki at the end of the game and he got a no-call offensive fouls from Dirk. I went crazy, wondering how we could allow that to happen. After reviewing the play it became clear that it was intentional. That was the first time I realized that not only are the going under screens and switches called plays, they are directed from the coach. One of the SacTownRoyalty guys did a great break down on how they run a 2-3 or 3-2 zone with screen switches and crash the lane. Karl has admitted this is his tactic. In a league where teams are shooting upwards of 30 3 pointers a game, he is really making sure teams don't get that all elusive 12 foot jumper.


So, with Grants rant and others in the media and the posters on this board who feel the same way who are hammering this team for lack of effort, let me ask you this. How much effort could you possibly give if overtime you went out to play defense, you were knowingly going into a situation where it was complete losing battle if the opposing team shot the ball with average effectiveness. I could probably have done it for about 10-15 games. 60? No freaking way. We have heard all year from the players questioning schemes and rotations. They have no control of that, except to completely not do what the coach says. They are doing what he says, it just doesn't work. At all. I don't even know if it would work in college at this point.

It's really that simple. I give this team credit for lasting as long as they did while being asked to repeatedly go onto a court and execute a fatally flawed system.
 
#79
That is terrible logic. You literally have no basis to make that assumption. Greg Pop is coaching better than ever, and is on track for his best regular season ever. Karl is a bad coach now because he's old? Get out of here with that bullpoopoo. Experience is king in coaching.
Pot meet kettle. Logic definitely isn't your thing so you are in no position to judge anybody else. At this point you've gone full troll mode and are 1 small step away from arguing with yourself just to keep the shtick going.

Good luck with that.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#83
Cousins either way? I think you have it backwards, it is Karl regardless and possibly Cousins if the godfather deal is offered. And Cousins only if it's a godfather deal. Now if at the trade deadline next year the team is still not showing and sustaining hope for the future then you cut cords. At that point, you still have the leverage.

I don't bow at the alter of either Karl or Cousins. But if I'm keeping one, it will be Cousins ten times out of ten.
There, fixed it! Sorry, no disrespect meant, the misuse of that word is one of my pet peeves.
 
#85
There, fixed it! Sorry, no disrespect meant, the misuse of that word is one of my pet peeves.
No disrespect taken. However, Websters 1985 dictionary has irregardless as a nonstandard or humorous usage ......................... irregardless since I had to look it up, that means I really didn't know ...... :p
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#86
so the point of this thread is to point out that George Karl is still a great coach? or that based on his stint here in Sacramento, that he still will be considered great despite his record here with the Kings? He has 1000+ wins, that's a feat in itself. Can't take that away from the guy. He should of never came back to coach though, he is a stationary duck over there on the bench. He can't speak loud enough, doesn't have the stamina and will to coach anymore, and it's typical Kings luck that they always get a coach who just doesn't work out. They just can't get it right for the life of them.
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#87
It's about making logical and smart decisions for this franchise. There is clearly an ego friction going on with this team. I know this is exactly what the organization is thinking hence why they haven't fired Karl yet. One year? Is that all you give a coach with a resume like that? One year? You people would have fired Greg Pop in his first season.

News flash: They never get a coach that works for them, because the coach is never the main problem. The problem is 6 foot 11 in shoes and weighs 280 pounds.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#88
It's about making logical and smart decisions for this franchise. There is clearly an ego friction going on with this team. I know this is exactly what the organization is thinking hence why they haven't fired Karl yet. One year? Is that all you give a coach with a resume like that? One year? You people would have fired Greg Pop in his first season.

News flash: They never get a coach that works for them, because the coach is never the main problem. The problem is 6 foot 11 in shoes and weighs 280 pounds.
And how do you know this exactly? You stating something doesn't make it so.

BTW? The man's name is Greg Popovich. And no, he would not have been fired in his first season because he didn't come in riding on a dated resume and failing to meet any and all expectations. Attempting to compare George Karl to Greg Popovich is a false analogy. The only thing the two men have in common at this point in their careers is they are still currently acting as head coaches in the NBA. One continues to have success while it's painfully obvious the other should have remained out of the game.
 
I

Im Still Ballin

Guest
#89
And how do you know this exactly? You stating something doesn't make it so.

BTW? The man's name is Greg Popovich. And no, he would not have been fired in his first season because he didn't come in riding on a dated resume and failing to meet any and all expectations. Attempting to compare George Karl to Greg Popovich is a false analogy. The only thing the two men have in common at this point in their careers is they are still currently acting as head coaches in the NBA. One continues to have success while it's painfully obvious the other should have remained out of the game.
Why did you lock the prediction thread?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#90
Why did you lock the prediction thread?
I explained why in response to the thread. Everybody here gets it. We know your position on things probably better than you do yourself. Your "prediction" thread was nothing more than a different way of phrasing what you've been saying in numerous other threads. Also there is at least one other thread ALREADY IN EXISTENCE that asks how people envision the 2016-17 Kings, which seems to already cover what you asked.

And please, let's try and NOT derail this thread (which in and of itself came to be because you derailed a different thread) just so you can argue the same points.