Ziller: Time for Kings to consider life after Cousins

gunks

Hall of Famer
#91
Thing about Cuz, (and if this has already been mentioned in an above post, forgive me) is that he has shown that he can keep his emotions in check. Not completely, he was still getting Ts with Malone, but he wasn't a complete sulky A-hole either.

He isn't a leader. Yet. And he may never be. So we need that leader in the HC seat. We saw it with Malone. He had the team's back. They responded. Karl is going full Westphail right now....

Right now Cuz is a mess. He knows it too. As temperamental as he is, he's also self aware. But he goes as the franchise goes, and vice versa.

Karl started this mess by his untradable comments. Now he's "coaching" us into the cellar.

We'd all love Cuz to be professional, but I don't think he's the cancer some are trying to make him out to be either.

If a godfather offer comes around, we may have to think about it. But for now, I'm still on Team Cuz.

The madness starts at the top. Cuz is just a symptom of a deeper sickness...
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#92
He is paid more than any player on the roster to be professional and a leader and when you curse out your coach or at best go on obscenity laced tirade you are NOT being a professional and you are NOT being a leader. He is being a destructive and divisive and his temper is getting the best of him.

Just hypothetically, what do you think Karl said or did or said to Boogie to deserve the abuse? If he was critical of his game, hypothetically, does that warrant Boogie dropping a series of F-bombs? I don't think so.
Bottom line, he is being paid to WIN. And he's not winning. A lot of players have cursed at their coaches, so I'm not buying that he's being unprofessional.

I don't know what was said in the locker room by anyone so speculating on why Boogie said whatever he said couldn't be more than random theorizing. You want to find a reason to criticize him for this. I'm more concerned, as I've said, with WHO leaked it to the media. It should have stayed "with the family" - to quote both Vlade and George Karl.
 
#93
Serious hyperbole here

The madness starts at the top. Cuz is just a symptom of a deeper sickness...
But the essence of your comment has validity.

The problem with this team is that they were constructed allegedly to be able withstand an injury or two and be able to compete and thats just not true.

The room for error is minimal because:
(1) Ben has seriously disappointed while young SGs in his mold specifically Rodney Hood, Jordan Clarkson, Bradley Beal and CJ McCollum are outperforming by leaps and bounds.
(2) Rudy is shooting 43% TS
(3) Rondo is shooting 44% TS
(4) WCS doesn't even look to score unless he has a dunk

These factors are interrelated because opponents aren't even guarding Rondo. The floor is shrinking and driving lanes are closed, part of the reason for Ben and Rudy's inefficiency. WCS limitations as a score further allow opponents to key in on Rudy and Boogie (when healthy)

None of these weaknesses has anything to do with Boogie or his temper and will not be solved by having a team meeting. But these weaknesses don't help Boogie because if we have seen anything is that he gets in trouble when he tries to do too much and when he has teammates to whom he cannot reliably defer or trust then we see 5 for 20 nights.

But it is still early and Ben will play better and Rudy will play better and hopefully Darren will be inserted back into the starting line-up because he is the better than Rondo and it is not really close.
 
#94
im not even going to read this rubbish.

This is what Falk is hoping for though, a national narrative to put pressure on getting his star client out of this mess (and it is a mess.)

We have boogie on hook for this season and 2 more. Im riding it out till the death and we need to take the same approach.

We need to fix our basketball mentality and how we play. Demarcus for all his gripes, incidents and run in's, is taking a real leadership position with this team but we need to fix what is going on at the top. Karl needs to fix his crap or we need to make the cut now. Its as simple as that. We can not paper over this and move forward only to have this crumble again in a few months time.

This is absolutely last chance saloon with boogie. We need to have a winning season but also how we go about that is important for the future.
 
#95
Bottom line, he is being paid to WIN. And he's not winning. A lot of players have cursed at their coaches, so I'm not buying that he's being unprofessional.

I don't know what was said in the locker room by anyone so speculating on why Boogie said whatever he said couldn't be more than random theorizing. You want to find a reason to criticize him for this. I'm more concerned, as I've said, with WHO leaked it to the media. It should have stayed "with the family" - to quote both Vlade and George Karl.
It could have been that yelling was overheard from outside the locker room. Jason Jones substantiated the initial report so he could have been in vicinity of the F-bombs.
 
#97
All this tells us, once again, is that many "writers" aren't worth the paper they print on.

Ziller has the occasional good article but is largely an embarrassment. That he has covered the Kings and still doesn't get it(unlike national writers who at least have the excuse of covering all 30 teams) adds to the embarrassment.

It's simple, with a healthy Cuz and the correct scheme, we can compete with any team on any given night. Without Cuz, our team looks lifeless and a team which could challenge for the least number of wins in NBA history. We just can't beat anyone without him for the most part. Can't even stay in the game. The list of players with that impact is extremely short. So unless you're proposing trading Cuz for a top 5 player(which I still wouldn't do), GTFO. I'd ask Ziller, which NBA team has ever, and really, ever, mismanaged a future HOF talent to this extent. There's your problem.
And this has happened year after year, where it doesn't seem to be quite as bad for other teams. Coaching problem? Roster problem? Or are players these days simply not built to play with a dominant big like Cuz?

All I know is ... No HOF player has been on as consistently bad teams as Cousins. Still early in his career, but for all the talk of Cuz being some once in a life time HOF player he sure hasn't done much on a team level. Yeah the team is bad when he doesn't play, but it's also bad when he does play, unless I missed some playoff series we were in with Cousins or something like that. There's plenty of blame to go around, but somehow it's never ever Cousins' fault. Emotional outbursts affecting team morale? Because of management or coach! Get's T'd up? Because coach didn't stand up for him, or because refs are BS! Doesn't get back on D? Well what would you expect when the poor guy has to carry the team! Camping out at 3 point line? Coach's fault for not putting him in the post! The list of excuses, some more valid than others, goes on and on and on. And of course, poor Cousins just happens to be the one and only most mismanaged HOF talent in the history of the NBA, and none of it is his fault! What poor luck!

I'm not interested in weak speculation, or going the other way and saying we should trade Cousins for a tomato. But here are the facts:
- Cousins puts up very good stats. He's clearly a very very good big man.
- Kings have not won, with or without Cousins.
- Poor coaching was blamed, we changed coaches multiple times.
- Cheap/ destructive owners were blamed, we changed owners.
- Bad GM was blamed. We changed GM multiple times.
- Weak roster was blamed, we've turned the entire roster upside down other than bringing back Omri (who few have qualms about).

Despite all this, we still aren't a good team where other teams have turned it around much quicker. There are only two things that have remained constant. Cousins, and the Kings franchise's apparent knack for the worst luck ever.

So looking at it objectively, I don't think trading Cousins should be completely out of the question. If in 6 years nobody has been able to build a team around him, their fault or his, then I see no reason as to why anybody in the Kings organization, no matter which GM or coach you bring in, will be able to in the future.

This is all just postulating though. At this point patience is still key as it's not too late to turn things around, but that has to happen soon. If we finally start winning then everything I said prior to this becomes moot because we would have finally effectively built around Cousnis. But if more losing continues, you can be certain that Cousins is going to get frustrated and have another outburst and demand to be traded or to fire Karl or something of that sort and yet another season will be lost. Then what? Get Thibs, the next hyped up coach and hope he can earn Cousins' respect and whatnot? Call me a Kings fan, but I'd just expect that to fail again.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
And this has happened year after year, where it doesn't seem to be quite as bad for other teams. Coaching problem? Roster problem? Or are players these days simply not built to play with a dominant big like Cuz?

All I know is ... No HOF player has been on as consistently bad teams as Cousins. Still early in his career, but for all the talk of Cuz being some once in a life time HOF player he sure hasn't done much on a team level. Yeah the team is bad when he doesn't play, but it's also bad when he does play, unless I missed some playoff series we were in with Cousins or something like that. There's plenty of blame to go around, but somehow it's never ever Cousins' fault. Emotional outbursts affecting team morale? Because of management or coach! Get's T'd up? Because coach didn't stand up for him, or because refs are BS! Doesn't get back on D? Well what would you expect when the poor guy has to carry the team! Camping out at 3 point line? Coach's fault for not putting him in the post! The list of excuses, some more valid than others, goes on and on and on. And of course, poor Cousins just happens to be the one and only most mismanaged HOF talent in the history of the NBA, and none of it is his fault! What poor luck!

I'm not interested in weak speculation, or going the other way and saying we should trade Cousins for a tomato. But here are the facts:
- Cousins puts up very good stats. He's clearly a very very good big man.
- Kings have not won, with or without Cousins.
- Poor coaching was blamed, we changed coaches multiple times.
- Cheap/ destructive owners were blamed, we changed owners.
- Bad GM was blamed. We changed GM multiple times.
- Weak roster was blamed, we've turned the entire roster upside down other than bringing back Omri (who few have qualms about).

Despite all this, we still aren't a good team where other teams have turned it around much quicker. There are only two things that have remained constant. Cousins, and the Kings franchise's apparent knack for the worst luck ever.

So looking at it objectively, I don't think trading Cousins should be completely out of the question. If in 6 years nobody has been able to build a team around him, their fault or his, then I see no reason as to why anybody in the Kings organization, no matter which GM or coach you bring in, will be able to in the future.

This is all just postulating though. At this point patience is still key as it's not too late to turn things around, but that has to happen soon. If we finally start winning then everything I said prior to this becomes moot because we would have finally effectively built around Cousnis. But if more losing continues, you can be certain that Cousins is going to get frustrated and have another outburst and demand to be traded or to fire Karl or something of that sort and yet another season will be lost. Then what? Get Thibs, the next hyped up coach and hope he can earn Cousins' respect and whatnot? Call me a Kings fan, but I'd just expect that to fail again.
One thing? On the All-Star team, with competent players and coaches around him, he did quite well. The same goes for TEAM USA. I refuse to believe DMC is the problem.
 
One thing? On the All-Star team, with competent players and coaches around him, he did quite well. The same goes for TEAM USA. I refuse to believe DMC is the problem.
All-star team isn't reflective though. I mean ... has there ever been any player that didn't "do well" on an All-Star team? Those guys don't have to stick together, they just go have fun for one game.

He's also never had to be the leader for team USA. He's not the 1st/2nd/3rd option. He doesn't get to dictate where he wants the ball and the coaches aren't forced to play him big minutes. His job is to defend and rebound the ball and score in situations that call for it. He sure as hell doesn't get to "disagree" with the coach like he does with Karl. He knows that if he doesn't do these things, or if he has some emotional outburst, that he'll just get cut from the team in favor of fr*kin Mason Plumlee, and that's an embarrassment. So team USA is again a very different situation. And as I have been saying in another thread, if what you're saying is we need such top-tier coaches and an entire roster full of all-stars just to win with Cousins then maybe Cousins isn't that great after all?

I don't think Cousins is holding back the team in the sense that if you take him out of the equation we suddenly become a playoff team. I'm not stupid. But I do think that given how hard it's been to win with him around, whether it's his fault or coaches or the organization, that you have to consider taking one step back to take two forward. To some, this means changing coaches again. Another possibility is just trading Cousins and going the smallball pace route that so many coaches and owners seem to be fans of these days. And you know what? Personally I don't think that such a system (unless you have Steph Curry) is ever going to win us a championship. But it definitely can get you to the playoffs, and I don't think a fan of a team with the second longest playoff drought is in much of a position to be saying championship or bust!
 
Last edited:
Then what? Get Thibs, the next hyped up coach and hope he can earn Cousins' respect and whatnot? Call me a Kings fan, but I'd just expect that to fail again.
The difference being Thibs and Cousins bonded on Team USA and Cousins or his representatives expressed reticence before hiring of Karl.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
All-star team isn't reflective though. I mean ... has there ever been any player that didn't "do well" on an All-Star team? Those guys don't have to stick together, they just go have fun for one game.

He's also never had to be the leader for team USA. He's not the 1st/2nd/3rd option. He doesn't get to dictate where he wants the ball and the coaches aren't forced to play him big minutes. His job is to defend and rebound the ball and score in situations that call for it. He knows that if he doesn't do these things, or if he has some emotional outburst, that he'll just get cut from the team in favor of fr*kin Mason Plumlee, and that's an embarrassment. And as I have been saying in another thread, if what you're saying is we need such top-tier coaches and an entire roster full of all-stars just to win with Cousins then maybe Cousins isn't that great after all?
No, that's not what I'm saying. You and others have pointed out all his failings. I've pointed out that he fits in quite well with the best to play the game and holds his own. That's saying something IMHO.

But this is pointless. Time will tell. Until then, there are always going to be those on both sides of the argument. :)
 
And as I have been saying in another thread, if what you're saying is we need such top-tier coaches and an entire roster full of all-stars just to win with Cousins then maybe Cousins isn't that great after all?
The team was 9-5 to start last season with Cousins leading the way without a collection of all-stars and almost NO bench. They did have a PG who could shoot, Ben making his 3s, a defensive scheme the whole team bought into and a coach he liked and respected. It was a limited sample size but that span of games did not look like a mirage to me. It was just enough pieces to work. This team would seem to have at least that much potential.
 
No, that's not what I'm saying. You and others have pointed out all his failings. I've pointed out that he fits in quite well with the best to play the game and holds his own. That's saying something IMHO.

But this is pointless. Time will tell. Until then, there are always going to be those on both sides of the argument. :)
Yup I think I can definitely agree with this. I have never questioned his talent or production. Only questioning whether he can be the franchise guy on a successful team, which team USA experience has not shown (because the situations are different). At the end of the day like you said, time will tell and we as fans don't exactly have much say in how things turn out. We all just want our Kings to win.
 
Bottom line, he is being paid to WIN. And he's not winning. A lot of players have cursed at their coaches, so I'm not buying that he's being unprofessional.

I don't know what was said in the locker room by anyone so speculating on why Boogie said whatever he said couldn't be more than random theorizing. You want to find a reason to criticize him for this. I'm more concerned, as I've said, with WHO leaked it to the media. It should have stayed "with the family" - to quote both Vlade and George Karl.
]Bottom line, he is being paid to WIN. And he's not winning.
When has Cousins not whined this season?

A lot of players have cursed at their coaches, so I'm not buying that he's being unprofessional.
Like who? You don't think cursing at your coach is unprofessional? You think cursing at your coach is fully professional? What is this madness right now?
I've played ball almost all my life, and coaching as your coach is NEVER ok. This is the type of thing that gets you kicked out of the squad. This is the type of thing that makes the rest of the team hate you. This is the type of thing that shows your true colors.

Why would it matter who leaked it?

If Cousins hadn't cursed at Karl in the 1st place, I don't think any of this would be a problem. Agreed?


Trying to downplay this, is ridiculous. If Ben had done it, everyone would be against him. Why? Because he's not our star player. Everyone would want Ben out of the team immediately.

Cousins should not be an exception to this rule. He does not get a free pass.

The Kings aren't killing Cousins. Cousins is killing Cousins.

The entire problem has been publicly said by Vlade that it's the players not buying it. It's all on the players. It's up to DMC to step up. It's up to him. Cursing out a coach is inexcusable.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
When has Cousins not whined this season?



Like who? You don't think cursing at your coach is unprofessional? You think cursing at your coach is fully professional? What is this madness right now?
I've played ball almost all my life, and coaching as your coach is NEVER ok. This is the type of thing that gets you kicked out of the squad. This is the type of thing that makes the rest of the team hate you. This is the type of thing that shows your true colors.

Why would it matter who leaked it?

If Cousins hadn't cursed at Karl in the 1st place, I don't think any of this would be a problem. Agreed?


Trying to downplay this, is ridiculous. If Ben had done it, everyone would be against him. Why? Because he's not our star player. Everyone would want Ben out of the team immediately.

Cousins should not be an exception to this rule. He does not get a free pass.

The Kings aren't killing Cousins. Cousins is killing Cousins.

The entire problem has been publicly said by Vlade that it's the players not buying it. It's all on the players. It's up to DMC to step up. It's up to him. Cursing out a coach is inexcusable.
I once ****ing threatened to kill my (assistant) coach.

Probably didn't mean it. Got saved from the boot by another assistant coach. But I didn't regret it. The man was an ass. All I regret was not having my full powers of verbal violation yet at that age, because he thoroughly deserved to be humiliated, in public, just like he always tried to do to everyone else. A bully with a title to bully, nothing more.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Just watched Shaq & Kenny on the post game segment on NBA TV. They hit the nail on the head to a tee....Cousins needs to allow Karl to coach him and listen to what he has to say and put away the ego for the betterment of the team if he ever wants to win consistently. Now they mentioned championships and all that, this team doesn't have or will have that type of ceiling IMO so the point is moot. However, I enjoyed their analysis on the approach Boogie needs to take...anyone can put up numbers on bad teams...do those numbers result in your team winning.
 
Just watched Shaq & Kenny on the post game segment on NBA TV. They hit the nail on the head to a tee....Cousins needs to allow Karl to coach him and listen to what he has to say and put away the ego for the betterment of the team if he ever wants to win consistently. Now they mentioned championships and all that, this team doesn't have or will have that type of ceiling IMO so the point is moot. However, I enjoyed their analysis on the approach Boogie needs to take...anyone can put up numbers on bad teams...do those numbers result in your team winning.
Every pro says stuff like this. It kind of ignores the reported context that the problem Cuz and many other players have with Karl is that he isn't doing much coaching to listen to.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Every pro says stuff like this. It kind of ignores the reported context that the problem Cuz and many other players have with Karl is that he isn't doing much coaching to listen to.
That may be the case....so what is a player to do at that point then? implement their own philosophy and style based on the players strengths, which is half court basketball, with input from Karl and staff?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Just watched Shaq & Kenny on the post game segment on NBA TV. They hit the nail on the head to a tee....Cousins needs to allow Karl to coach him and listen to what he has to say and put away the ego for the betterment of the team if he ever wants to win consistently. Now they mentioned championships and all that, this team doesn't have or will have that type of ceiling IMO so the point is moot. However, I enjoyed their analysis on the approach Boogie needs to take...anyone can put up numbers on bad teams...do those numbers result in your team winning.
It's a two-way street. George Karl also needs to coach to the strengths of the players he has, which is what any successful coach does.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I'd say calling a meeting to air grievances is a good start, preferably without cussing the coach out, but hey - whatever gets the point across :)
Maybe it took "cussing the coach out" for everybody to clear the air and realize that deep down they all want the same thing. Haven't you ever cursed during an argument because you just didn't think the person you were arguing with was getting what you were trying to say?
 
Maybe it took "cussing the coach out" for everybody to clear the air and realize that deep down they all want the same thing. Haven't you ever cursed during an argument because you just didn't think the person you were arguing with was getting what you were trying to say?
Hey, no argument from me there! But apparently some people think it's a terrible offense from a known coach killer that requires an official apology. I just hope that going forward both sides see that they need each other and that the recipe for success is right there staring them in the face.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Hey, no argument from me there! But apparently some people think it's a terrible offense from a known coach killer that requires an official apology. I just hope that going forward both sides see that they need each other and that the recipe for success is right there staring them in the face.
Rondo deserves some credit, too. He's been an excellent influence on DMC and the Kings. It showed tonight. When you have a teammate who puts it all out there every single minute of the game, you have to be encouraged to do the same. And he made a point to slow things down at critical moments to keep the Kings from going off kilter.
 
Every year we go through some sort of major drama with DeMarcus. Every year the apologists make excuses about why it's everybody else's fault but his. Yes, I realize that the franchise is dysfunctional but how come we don't have these issues with other players? It's ALWAYS DeMarcus. Every time.