[Game] Kings @ Suns (Pre-Season) Game Discussion

[PHXSUNSFAN]

Good game guys. That kid WCS is the real freaking deal. Gay played like he was using a cheat code or something tonight, on fire.

I was pretty disappointed with the our guys. Kieff was garbage and so was Bledsoe for most of the night really. Leuer is the only one that actually impressed me a lot tonight for the Suns, I think he could crack the rotation with this type of play.

I never knew he had this type of athleticism (, the best Suns highlight of the night

 

[Livinthedream]

Just checking box score. Ben had 6 points on 50% shooting in 26 minutes. 4 shot attempts, 4 reb, 1 asst. Marco had 12 points on 25% shooting. 2 reb 26 minutes. Marco took 15 shots. There are not 15 shots available for Ben with the starters.

I asked what was expected of Marco yesterday. Today I ask what is expected of Ben. We keep talking expectations and potential. He consitently shoots 50% from 2pt range. That's not bad for a perimiter player.

 

[206Fan]

Just checking box score. Ben had 6 points on 50% shooting in 26 minutes. 4 shot attempts, 4 reb, 1 asst. Marco had 12 points on 25% shooting. 2 reb 26 minutes. Marco took 15 shots. There are not 15 shots available for Ben with the starters.

I asked what was expected of Marco yesterday. Today I ask what is expected of Ben. We keep talking expectations and potential. He consitently shoots 50% from 2pt range. That's not bad for a perimiter player.

This is exactly my point. Belinelli would not even get 10 shots if he was playing with Rudy and Cuz.

It really isn't his fault that he's forced to start with 2 heavy scoring players in Rudy and Cuz. They weren't necessarily looking to pass the ball either.

Give Ben a few more than 2 preseason games before we want to determine his fate... Context is everything.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If this was a regular season game, Leuer doesn't get that dunk. Cuz wasn't exactly going hard. It's preseason, no need to risk getting injured there.

 

[Livinthedream]

If this was a regular season game, Leuer doesn't get that dunk. Cuz wasn't exactly going hard. It's preseason, no need to risk getting injured there.

I agree. His heart wasn't really into making that stop.

 

[pshn80]

How are we going to get the chance to see Ben attack the rim when you just claimed that his teammates and coach don't thirst him enough to give him the ball?

Ben had 4 Rebs tonight..not too terrible...considering our bigs were showing little ability to box out..

He also had 2stls. And 2 ft attempts.

Ben is not getting his opportunity.

Belinelli is getting all the looks because he plays on the bench with Collison.

He does not have to battle with Rudy and Cuz for the ball, unlike Ben.

Don't waste too much of your time on Ben. If he has a great run then be happy but don't be surprised if it doesn't happen.

 

[Larry89]

DMC 3-12 shooting with 3 three point attempts?? CMON SON

 

[The_Jamal]

At some point, the excuses for Ben will just have to stop. It's always either he didn't get any plays drawn up for him or he was guarded too well or something else...

We had a lot of hope for Ben. This might be the year when, despite his contract extension, we face the inevitable truth. He's not gonna live up to those expectations.

And now, having said that, I truly hope I am proven wrong. I would love to see the kid turn it on and have one helluva year.

Not excuses when its true. There are just a limited amount of shots when you play a majority of your minutes with Rudy and Cuz who (rightfully so) should be taking a majority of the offense. Rondo should help with distributing the ball around more and getting others involved, but its major downfall of guys who have to play with how USG players; they just don't get many looks.

 

[Double-K]

Not excuses when its true. There are just a limited amount of shots when you play a majority of your minutes with Rudy and Cuz who (rightfully so) should be taking a majority of the offense. Rondo should help with distributing the ball around more and getting others involved, but its major downfall of guys who have to play with how USG players; they just don't get many looks.

I concur. With Rondo, Ben should be getting a lot more open looks this year. It should be a make-or-break year for him.

 

[jcwkings]

DMC 3-12 shooting with 3 three point attempts?? CMON SON

He's on cruise control, you can tell. When Leur dunked on him it sparked him and he proceeded to draw a ton of fouls. He will be ready to go on opening night.

 

[Hoovtrain]

DMC 3-12 shooting with 3 three point attempts?? CMON SON

He took 12 3's?? Hmm whoops never mind see you said 3 threes

 

[Double-K]

Hightlights, since we all got the shagged by NBA TV.

 

[KingMilz]

WCS is the story of the preseason so far he's so disruptive and is just everywhere on D and actually showed good hands catching tough passes (although his finishing at times was a bit weak). He looked like a natural fit next to Cousins, the Suns were struggling to get anything at the rim when those two were in the game. I know it's preseason but the likes of T-Rob, Jimmer, Nik and Ben looked completely out of there depth he looks like he's been in the NBA for a good amount of time and knows exactly what to do.

Also I been saying for a couple year now TJ Warren is going to be a top 10 SF in the NBA within the next two years I think he will have a Jimmy Butler like explosion this or next year, not sure how he's not starting over PJ Tucker. His nose for the ball and off the ball movement could literally be the best in the NBA and he's showed a much improved mid range jumper so far.

 

[KingMilz]

He's not getting his opportunities. The Suns guarded him amazingly tonight...there's a reason for it too. NBA teams know that Ben is our only real 3pt shooter in our starting lineup. You take away Ben, and you take away the possibility of Cuz kicking it out to a 3pt shooter.

There's also a reason why Rudy made a lot of 3's..aside from being hot, they guarded him too loosely and dared him to take 3s. Not the same case with Ben.

We will continue to see this throughout the season..especially if Ben is our only real 3pt threat. This means more opportunities for Rudy though. At least we have 1 less player trying to guard Cuz.


Coach didn't draw up any plays for Ben...I'm dumbfounded on why..... this is the preseason..let Ben get his reps instead of Marco, Collison, and Butler who were all chucking the ball up.

The thing I want to see from Ben is above average defense that's where imo he will make his mark and $$ in the NBA if he wants to be a rotation player. I would not mind the coaches telling him no pressure on you to score just go out there and try be a lockdown or at least disruptive defender and get easy transition buckets. It just feels to me for a guy so athletic he doesn't really play with energy that he should if you have that type of up and down athletic ability you should really use it in particular when your confidence in ball handling/shooting is just not there.

 

[celtics33]

If this was a regular season game, Leuer doesn't get that dunk. Cuz wasn't exactly going hard. It's preseason, no need to risk getting injured there.

Pure, simple and crude truth.

 

[celtics33]

For a guy that complained about being out of a shape less than a week ago, WCS seemed like he played a ton tonight. And for a guy who looks so lanky, he also seems to get wherever he wants. Very active. Call me crazy but he reminds me of J. Noah

Noah would kill to have WCS' athletic qualities. So far he has more NBA seasons in his record whereas Willie has barely been part of two pre-season games.

 

[jdbraver]

Just checking box score. Ben had 6 points on 50% shooting in 26 minutes. 4 shot attempts, 4 reb, 1 asst. Marco had 12 points on 25% shooting. 2 reb 26 minutes. Marco took 15 shots. There are not 15 shots available for Ben with the starters.

I asked what was expected of Marco yesterday. Today I ask what is expected of Ben. We keep talking expectations and potential. He consitently shoots 50% from 2pt range. That's not bad for a perimiter player.

Spacing the floor because of a threat at 22 ft. He is a SHOOTING guard...

 

[lawlman91]

He's not getting his opportunities. The Suns guarded him amazingly tonight...there's a reason for it too. NBA teams know that Ben is our only real 3pt shooter in our starting lineup. You take away Ben, and you take away the possibility of Cuz kicking it out to a 3pt shooter.

There's also a reason why Rudy made a lot of 3's..aside from being hot, they guarded him too loosely and dared him to take 3s. Not the same case with Ben.

We will continue to see this throughout the season..especially if Ben is our only real 3pt threat. This means more opportunities for Rudy though. At least we have 1 less player trying to guard Cuz.


Coach didn't draw up any plays for Ben...I'm dumbfounded on why..... this is the preseason..let Ben get his reps instead of Marco, Collison, and Butler who were all chucking the ball up.

Coach did though, in the beginning. I guess he was trying to get the young guys (Ben and Willie) to work together. In the end, Ben passed it to Rudy and Rudy got on his streak. Ben needs to take more semi-contested shots off of a screen. And he needs to practice it again and again so that he has the confidence to do it the next play, even if he misses.

 

[Livinthedream]

Spacing the floor because of a threat at 22 ft. He is a SHOOTING guard...

Spacing does not only occur at 23 feet. It occurs when a perimeter player is a threat to score. If a perimeter player scores at a 50% clip from 2pt range, he has to be accounted for.

There is this misconception that only the 3pt shot matters. The 3 point shot is being used as an analytics tool for efficiency. More pts per shot when a 3 is taken, even when the percentages of made 3's is lower. That advantage diminishes the higher percentage of 2's a player can make. So a player making 50% of his 2pt shots and 36% of his 3s is doing his job as an offensive threat. So my argument to anyone who complains about any player not hitting his open 3s is that the player should take a couple steps in. He's still spacing the floor and he's more efficient.

As far as the shooting guard role goes, that scoring role on any team is diminished when your SF is a good outside shooting threat. And that's OK. It's one or the other that is going to get the bulk of those shots. If Ben had went 4/15 shooting we had all been up in arms and telling him to pass because he can't shoot. Rudy is on fire and he takes all the shot and we are all up in arms that Ben didn't shoot. Context and perspective is being lost.

Edit: I don't mean to question whether you in particular undestand eFG%. I just felt it needed to be spelled out in general. .

 

[jcwkings]

Noah would kill to have WCS' athletic qualities. So far he has more NBA seasons in his record whereas Willie has barely been part of two pre-season games.

This, I really see Anthony Davis level potential defensively. He was credited with three blocks, but I swear I saw at least 5-6 and thats not even mentioning altered shots. His pick and roll coverage is crazy good.

One thing I found interesting is that Cousins exclusively guarded Morris even though WCS matches up better. It seems Cousins will be playing the 4 a ton more this year.

 

[Letsgokings13]

Butler really played bad tonight, as did Omri.

 

[ForlornKing]

WCS is the truth.

I'm already done with the pre-season, even though I'm going to the game tonight.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Too many turnovers. Cuz guarding Morris while Willie guards Chandler is a weird choice. PG play was bad. Ball movement was bad. Shooters weren't hitting their shots. Cuz was disengaged and sloppy.
We are not on track yet.

 

[ESP47]

Too many turnovers. Cuz guarding Morris while Willie guards Chandler is a weird choice. PG play was bad. Ball movement was bad. Shooters weren't hitting their shots. Cuz was disengaged and sloppy.
We are not on track yet.

Could have just been Karl testing the waters. We know what Cousins and Chandler can do against each other. Maybe Karl was just seeing how Cousins fared against a highly skilled stretch 4.

One thing we did learn is that Cauley-Stein looked good out there with the starting 5. That's the unit I was saying might be our best bet the other day. He still had his rookie moments where the rim blocked his dunk on a couple occasions but overall he looked about as good as you could have hoped. Especially on defense. He already looks like he's in his 2nd or 3rd year on that side of the court. I don't know who was controlling the box score but it looked to me like he had more blocks than credited for. Also I could have sworn I saw James Anderson hit two layups, yet the box score said he went 1-4.

 

[twslam07]

I was one of the people on the board lobbying that Koufos will start the first game of the season due to Cauley-Stein being a rookie and an unknown at the time (from NBA standards), but he is playing the way we hoped he would play. If he keeps this play up for the next few games. I would like to see Cauley-Stein start. It's always been the long term plan to have Cauley-Stein start next to Cousins. It was just a question of how soon would Cauley-Stein be ready. Well ladies and gentleman, he looks well on his way to be a contributor right out of the gate. Let's hope he can keep it up.

Right now, I'd like to see this depth chart (subject to change as preseason continues):

PG - Rondo/Collison/Curry/Stockton
SG - McLemore/Belinelli/Anderson
SF - Gay/Casspi/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein/Moreland/Acy/Dukan
C - Cousins/Koufos

I went ahead and switched out Moreland with Acy. I'm really not even sure why we would play Acy at all. He's not a full size PF, and he doesn't rebound, defend, or shoot particularly well. I would rather see either a full sized PF who can rebound and block some shots (Moreland) or give the minutes to Gay or Casspi who are basically the same height and length but can also spread the floor.

Coach Karl, I'm still waiting to see my specific lineup combination (Collison/Gay/Cauley-Stein/Cousins/Koufos)! It has about the same amount of floor spacing as the original starting unit (Rondo for WCS & McLemore for Collison). It's only preseason...


I think another interesting aspect of inserting Cauley-Stein into the starting lineup is his versatility on defense. Our two best players (Cousins, Gay) sandwich him in the lineup. Depending on matchups, we can get really creative with our defensive assignments:

If Gay and Cousins matchup well on the defensive side of the ball with their traditional positions, or if the man to guard plays PF (Heat, Pelicans are examples):
Deng/Pondexter vs. Gay
Bosh/Davis vs. Cauley-Stein
Whiteside/Asik vs. Cousins

If the opposing team has a good offensive SF and a non-offensive or stretch 4 (Knicks, Magic are examples):
Anthony/Harris vs. Cauley-Stein
Porzingis/Gordon vs. Gay
Lopez/Vucevic vs. Cousins

If the opposing team has a good offensive C, and a non-offensive 4 (Sixers, Timberwolves are examples):
Covington/Wiggins vs. Gay
Noel/Garnett vs. Cousins
Okafor/Towns vs. Cauley-Stein

We could even get really ambitious when we play Houston and put Cauley-Stein on Harden, but with all the screens he uses, it might be pointless. But a Harden-Cauley-Stein, Ariza-McLemore, & Jones-Gay matchup could be interesting.

If Cauley-Stein was guarding Harden, there would only be one screen that would cause a true mismatch (Cousins on Harden), but even then, it's just one mismatch. Cauley-Stein switching to Howard is hardly a mismatch (in terms of switching screens). Normally a SG - C switch leads to two mismatches, but with Cauley-Stein out there, it only gives the offense one. Also, with Cauley-Stein switching to Howard, Cousins wouldn't have to hang back to make sure Howard doesn't get an easy alley oop since Cauley-Stein can be there to defend it. That way, Cousins can close some of that space between him and Harden to not let him shoot over the top. If Harden tries to use anyone else to screen, you can have Rondo, McLemore, or Gay switching on to him which doesn't leave us in a very vulnerable position.

I don't know why I got so into the Houston matchup. Maybe it's because I hate Harden and want to see our team smother him.

 

[Kingster]

DMC 3-12 shooting with 3 three point attempts?? CMON SON

WTF.

 

[jdbraver]

Spacing does not only occur at 23 feet. It occurs when a perimeter player is a threat to score. If a perimeter player scores at a 50% clip from 2pt range, he has to be accounted for.

There is this misconception that only the 3pt shot matters. The 3 point shot is being used as an analytics tool for efficiency. More pts per shot when a 3 is taken, even when the percentages of made 3's is lower. That advantage diminishes the higher percentage of 2's a player can make. So a player making 50% of his 2pt shots and 36% of his 3s is doing his job as an offensive threat. So my argument to anyone who complains about any player not hitting his open 3s is that the player should take a couple steps in. He's still spacing the floor and he's more efficient.

As far as the shooting guard role goes, that scoring role on any team is diminished when your SF is a good outside shooting threat. And that's OK. It's one or the other that is going to get the bulk of those shots. If Ben had went 4/15 shooting we had all been up in arms and telling him to pass because he can't shoot. Rudy is on fire and he takes all the shot and we are all up in arms that Ben didn't shoot. Context and perspective is being lost.

Edit: I don't mean to question whether you in particular undestand eFG%. I just felt it needed to be spelled out in general. .

No spacing occurs when the resin guarding u needs to stick w u the farther u get from the basket. If a person could regular hit from half court imagine the space it creates.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

DMC 3-12 shooting with 3 three point attempts??

Yeah, but a .250 three-point shooter is more efficient than a .375 two-point shooter, so analytics says he should shoot more threes. Or something.

 

[jcwkings]

The first quarter showed glimpses of the potential of the starting unit. Our length clearly bothered the Suns, they couldnt get anything inside and we were getting deflections all over the place.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

I was one of the people on the board lobbying that Koufos will start the first game of the season due to Cauley-Stein being a rookie and an unknown at the time (from NBA standards), but he is playing the way we hoped he would play. If he keeps this play up for the next few games. I would like to see Cauley-Stein start. It's always been the long term plan to have Cauley-Stein start next to Cousins. It was just a question of how soon would Cauley-Stein be ready. Well ladies and gentleman, he looks well on his way to be a contributor right out of the gate. Let's hope he can keep it up.

Right now, I'd like to see this depth chart (subject to change as preseason continues):

PG - Rondo/Collison/Curry/Stockton
SG - McLemore/Belinelli/Anderson
SF - Gay/Casspi/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein/Moreland/Acy/Dukan
C - Cousins/Koufos

I went ahead and switched out Moreland with Acy. I'm really not even sure why we would play Acy at all. He's not a full size PF, and he doesn't rebound, defend, or shoot particularly well. I would rather see either a full sized PF who can rebound and block some shots (Moreland) or give the minutes to Gay or Casspi who are basically the same height and length but can also spread the floor.

Coach Karl, I'm still waiting to see my specific lineup combination (Collison/Gay/Cauley-Stein/Cousins/Koufos)! It has about the same amount of floor spacing as the original starting unit (Rondo for WCS & McLemore for Collison). It's only preseason...


I think another interesting aspect of inserting Cauley-Stein into the starting lineup is his versatility on defense. Our two best players (Cousins, Gay) sandwich him in the lineup. Depending on matchups, we can get really creative with our defensive assignments:

If Gay and Cousins matchup well on the defensive side of the ball with their traditional positions, or if the man to guard plays PF (Heat, Pelicans are examples):
Deng/Pondexter vs. Gay
Bosh/Davis vs. Cauley-Stein
Whiteside/Asik vs. Cousins

If the opposing team has a good offensive SF and a non-offensive or stretch 4 (Knicks, Magic are examples):
Anthony/Harris vs. Cauley-Stein
Porzingis/Gordon vs. Gay
Lopez/Vucevic vs. Cousins

If the opposing team has a good offensive C, and a non-offensive 4 (Sixers, Timberwolves are examples):
Covington/Wiggins vs. Gay
Noel/Garnett vs. Cousins
Okafor/Towns vs. Cauley-Stein

We could even get really ambitious when we play Houston and put Cauley-Stein on Harden, but with all the screens he uses, it might be pointless. But a Harden-Cauley-Stein, Ariza-McLemore, & Jones-Gay matchup could be interesting.

If Cauley-Stein was guarding Harden, there would only be one screen that would cause a true mismatch (Cousins on Harden), but even then, it's just one mismatch. Cauley-Stein switching to Howard is hardly a mismatch (in terms of switching screens). Normally a SG - C switch leads to two mismatches, but with Cauley-Stein out there, it only gives the offense one. Also, with Cauley-Stein switching to Howard, Cousins wouldn't have to hang back to make sure Howard doesn't get an easy alley oop since Cauley-Stein can be there to defend it. That way, Cousins can close some of that space between him and Harden to not let him shoot over the top. If Harden tries to use anyone else to screen, you can have Rondo, McLemore, or Gay switching on to him which doesn't leave us in a very vulnerable position.

I don't know why I got so into the Houston matchup. Maybe it's because I hate Harden and want to see our team smother him.

Agree with all of this. That was the entire point of drafting Cauley-Stein so high. And it looks like he's ready to go from a defensive perspective. So while Koufos may be the better player at the moment, the team is better balanced with Cauley-Stein starting.