Matt Moore article on Cousins and Barkley

#2
Here is my favorite piece of that article"

"So Cousins has every right to feel as misunderstood as he does. The reality remains that no big man has done what he's accomplished over the past two seasons on the court in terms of production, period. Nobody. Not Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol, who are widely considered the best centers in the game. And not even MVP candidate Anthony Davis last year. Don't believe me? Per 100 possessions:"
 
#5
He will be this year. Mark this post.

We'll be winning 45-55 games, and his stats will be even better.

Curry, Lebron, Cuz.

Cuz has a legitimate shot to be the MVP... THIS YEAR.
Too early, IMO. A lot has to go right in order for that to happen. I'm pretty optimistic in regards to this upcoming season, but it will have to be a huge turnaround for this team in order for Cuz to be winning the MVP. 45-50 wins will throw him in the race, win 55... Who knows. But like I said we haven't won 30 games in years, let alone 40 or 50!
 
#6
Here is my favorite piece of that article"

"So Cousins has every right to feel as misunderstood as he does. The reality remains that no big man has done what he's accomplished over the past two seasons on the court in terms of production, period. Nobody. Not Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol, who are widely considered the best centers in the game. And not even MVP candidate Anthony Davis last year. Don't believe me? Per 100 possessions:"
That is epic. I almost can't even believe someone outside of this message board wrote that.
 
#8
Just like that? I like the cloud you are riding on but hey...to each his own!
Yes. Just like that. He was a top 5 player last season, and that wasn't even disputed by the national media. Put him on a winning team with a pass first point guard and more shooters around him? Easy MVP candidate. Easy.

Basically it comes down to: if you legitimately think it's reasonable and indeed you expect the Kings to win around 45 games, at least be above .500, then you should also be well within reason to assume Cousins will be an MVP candidate, at the very least in the discussion. Barring major injuries.

Most people around here have projected the Kings to win at least 41-45 games.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#9
Yes. Just like that. He was a top 5 player last season, and that wasn't even disputed by the national media. Put him on a winning team with a pass first point guard and more shooters around him? Easy MVP candidate. Easy.

Basically it comes down to: if you legitimately think it's reasonable and indeed you expect the Kings to win around 45 games, at least be above .500, then you should also be well within reason to assume Cousins will be an MVP candidate, at the very least in the discussion. Barring major injuries.

Most people around here have projected the Kings to win at least 41-45 games.
I don't see Cousins winning a MVP with the team having 41-45 wins...I think you need 50+ IMO.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#11
Fair enough. Can you agree he'll be in the conversation?
This year? no...too soon. We don't know how Rondo will pan out and the rest of the team. It all looks good on paper but they need to play together and grow as a team, build chemistry and go from there. Now next season if everything works out and Rondo is here for more than one season, then yes...I see him in the conversation with a legit chance to win and not just being in the conversation.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#12
Yes. Just like that. He was a top 5 player last season, and that wasn't even disputed by the national media. Put him on a winning team with a pass first point guard and more shooters around him? Easy MVP candidate. Easy.

Basically it comes down to: if you legitimately think it's reasonable and indeed you expect the Kings to win around 45 games, at least be above .500, then you should also be well within reason to assume Cousins will be an MVP candidate, at the very least in the discussion. Barring major injuries.

Most people around here have projected the Kings to win at least 41-45 games.
Really can't win the MVP with 45 wins. Since the media took over the voting, no player has ever won it with less than 54. So you are talking about a monumental surprise season emerging not just as a playoff team, but as a contender 25+ wins better, doubling our win total. We do that? Yeah, not only is Cousins a MVP contender, he's a damn favorite. But let's just say its a tad unlikely all in one gulp. :)
 
#13
Really can't win the MVP with 45 wins. Since the media took over the voting, no player has ever won it with less than 54. So you are talking about a monumental surprise season emerging not just as a playoff team, but as a contender 25+ wins better, doubling our win total. We do that? Yeah, not only is Cousins a MVP contender, he's a damn favorite. But let's just say its a tad unlikely all in one gulp. :)
Ok, well, then if not a favorite, definitely in the conversation. Probably end up sounding like "having an incredible year, but if you're an MVP, you take your team deep into the playoffs..." or something like that. They'll be making excuses why they can't vote for him.
 
#14
The Kings are still missing a player or two before they rack up 54 + wins IMO. WCS may turn into one of them, a great defender in and around the paint. Then Vlade just needs to find a great wing defender 6' 5" or taller. If Ben McLemore lived in the weight room/Gym and could channel some nasty attitude from Tony Allen that is what I am talking about.

Cousins still belongs in the MVP discussion and I think his time will come.
 
#15
Cousins likely won't be considered an MVP, because:

a) It would take a huge number of wins to be considered.
and
b) if the Kings had a huge increase in wins, most people would attribute the success to the NEW players (Rondo, Bellinelli, WCS, etc).

It would be too easy (i.e. lazy) for people to think "meh, Cousins had been there 5 years - if he was all that, why didn't the Kings win more until AFTER Rondo and the others got there?"
 
#17
The Kings are still missing a player or two before they rack up 54 + wins IMO. WCS may turn into one of them, a great defender in and around the paint. Then Vlade just needs to find a great wing defender 6' 5" or taller. If Ben McLemore lived in the weight room/Gym and could channel some nasty attitude from Tony Allen that is what I am talking about.

Cousins still belongs in the MVP discussion and I think his time will come.
I think if we had gotten Butler 2-3 years earlier, he would've been perfect for that wing position.

I think this team needs a bit more defense to become a solid 50+W team. I'm hoping James Anderson can be that solid wing guy. He's very underrated all around. I'm really interested to see what he can bring to the table.

If Ben doesn't step up this year, I can see Anderson and Belinelli start to chip into his minutes.

I'm hoping for a new and improved Ben.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#19
Cousins likely won't be considered an MVP, because:

a) It would take a huge number of wins to be considered.
and
b) if the Kings had a huge increase in wins, most people would attribute the success to the NEW players (Rondo, Bellinelli, WCS, etc).

It would be too easy (i.e. lazy) for people to think "meh, Cousins had been there 5 years - if he was all that, why didn't the Kings win more until AFTER Rondo and the others got there?"
What's silly is that's not how it generally works. Great players will be going along being great, boom, all of a sudden a better set of teammates is around them, and suddenly THEY, the great player, are an MVP candidate. Are they any better? Maybe a tad. But no, the difference is that they had better teammates. Its a highly stupid system/prejudice.
 
#20
Yes. Just like that. He was a top 5 player last season, and that wasn't even disputed by the national media. Put him on a winning team with a pass first point guard and more shooters around him? Easy MVP candidate. Easy.

Basically it comes down to: if you legitimately think it's reasonable and indeed you expect the Kings to win around 45 games, at least be above .500, then you should also be well within reason to assume Cousins will be an MVP candidate, at the very least in the discussion. Barring major injuries.

Most people around here have projected the Kings to win at least 41-45 games.
Top 5 player wasn't disputed by the media? It's hard to find anyone who agrees with that outside that message board- and frankly it's for a good reason- he is not (atleast for now) a top 5 player in this league, I could live with this argument if he had better efficiency and his team wasn't one of the worst in the league.

Even discounting AD (and we really shouldn't) LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden and CP3 are all pretty much locks before Cousins.
And about AD in the Matt Moore article, he said that AD didn't have a better season and than posted a per 100 poss numbers... which AD was far better at:

Far better Net Rating (difference of 17), 3 fouls less, 4.4 TO less, 1.7 more blocks and a 6.8% better FG precentage on almost an identicle number of points.

Cousins has an edge of 2.1 Assists (worse ast/to rate) and 3.8 Rebounds- but almost any person would favour AD's stat line over the one of Cousins, and indication of that are PER (30.89 to 25.29), TS% (59.1% to 54.4%), RPM (8.18 to 6.12) and WAR (15.86 to 10.86).

The reason he wasn't given MVP voting respect is that he is not worthy of an MVP candidacy- he might be in the future, but he was not until now.
 
#21
Top 5 player wasn't disputed by the media? It's hard to find anyone who agrees with that outside that message board- and frankly it's for a good reason- he is not (atleast for now) a top 5 player in this league, I could live with this argument if he had better efficiency and his team wasn't one of the worst in the league.

Even discounting AD (and we really shouldn't) LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden and CP3 are all pretty much locks before Cousins.
And about AD in the Matt Moore article, he said that AD didn't have a better season and than posted a per 100 poss numbers... which AD was far better at:

Far better Net Rating (difference of 17), 3 fouls less, 4.4 TO less, 1.7 more blocks and a 6.8% better FG precentage on almost an identicle number of points.

Cousins has an edge of 2.1 Assists (worse ast/to rate) and 3.8 Rebounds- but almost any person would favour AD's stat line over the one of Cousins, and indication of that are PER (30.89 to 25.29), TS% (59.1% to 54.4%), RPM (8.18 to 6.12) and WAR (15.86 to 10.86).

The reason he wasn't given MVP voting respect is that he is not worthy of an MVP candidacy- he might be in the future, but he was not until now.
It's really hard to argue that Cousins is a top 5 player, but we know he's probably in lock for top 10-15.

AD, Durant, James, Paul, Curry, Harden, and Griffin are all a step higher. He's probably comes right after all of them.

Very hard to see him as a MVP candidate next year unless he takes the team to the playoffs and maintains good effiency.

Last year Griffin averaged something like 21.9 pts 7.6 Rebs 5.3 asts and only 2.6 TOs. All while shooting at .500 and fts above .700, however, his name was never in MVP discussions.

Cuz is going to have to have a monster season for him to be talked like in those heights.

I think Harden, Durant, or George wins it this season.
 
#22
Top 5 player wasn't disputed by the media? It's hard to find anyone who agrees with that outside that message board- and frankly it's for a good reason- he is not (atleast for now) a top 5 player in this league, I could live with this argument if he had better efficiency and his team wasn't one of the worst in the league.

Even discounting AD (and we really shouldn't) LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden and CP3 are all pretty much locks before Cousins.
And about AD in the Matt Moore article, he said that AD didn't have a better season and than posted a per 100 poss numbers... which AD was far better at:

Far better Net Rating (difference of 17), 3 fouls less, 4.4 TO less, 1.7 more blocks and a 6.8% better FG precentage on almost an identicle number of points.

Cousins has an edge of 2.1 Assists (worse ast/to rate) and 3.8 Rebounds- but almost any person would favour AD's stat line over the one of Cousins, and indication of that are PER (30.89 to 25.29), TS% (59.1% to 54.4%), RPM (8.18 to 6.12) and WAR (15.86 to 10.86).

The reason he wasn't given MVP voting respect is that he is not worthy of an MVP candidacy- he might be in the future, but he was not until now.
So you are comparing this last NBA season?

I think you are and I also think you know of all the other factors that came into play. Meningitis, Malone's firing and the ensuing turmoil, Coaching Carousel, Collison's injury.

IMO a better comparison was last summers Team USA games and how the two compared. The Eye Test says while AD was very good, DMC was a dominant force.
 
#23
I get the Hammer's point- if he puts up similar or better numbers and the team wins 45 games, he should be in the conversation, just like Davis was when his team won 45 games. A likely winner? No. But in the conversation.
 
#24
Also, although the article properly points out the lack of off court incidents with Cousins, it doesn't mention that Barkley even had some of his own. I distinctly remember that he threw a guy through a bar window, especially because I saw Barkley out in Sacramento shortly thereafter (with a very large bodyguard!).
 
#25
just win...recognition will come with it. It's time that DeMarcus gets his fair share of praise around the media and hopefully becomes a MVP candidate in the near future.
Yes I also hope he wins the MVP....for a few reasons His current odds are 100-1 so the payout would be nice. It's actually not TOO far fetched. He's got MVP caliber #'s, if the team can utilize some of the talent they have surrounded him with coupled with Karl's coaching track record, we could see a substantial jump in total wins which could then propel Cousins into potential MVP talks
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#26
It's really hard to argue that Cousins is a top 5 player, but we know he's probably in lock for top 10-15.

AD, Durant, James, Paul, Curry, Harden, and Griffin are all a step higher. He's probably comes right after all of them.

Very hard to see him as a MVP candidate next year unless he takes the team to the playoffs and maintains good effiency.

Last year Griffin averaged something like 21.9 pts 7.6 Rebs 5.3 asts and only 2.6 TOs. All while shooting at .500 and fts above .700, however, his name was never in MVP discussions.

Cuz is going to have to have a monster season for him to be talked like in those heights.

I think Harden, Durant, or George wins it this season.
Until the playoffs came around Cousins was CLEARLY a better player than weenie Griffin. And considerablyt better than Aldridge too.

After that we get into tough comparisons, but this should be noted here: right now for the last few years the NBA has had an almost unprecedented number of high end superstars all working at peak form at once. I don't think the overall talent is as strong as the early 90s type pack of great centers and PFs and Jordan, but all of the guys at the moment are peak at the same time. There are great many seasons when Cousins is Top 5 without a question. Well a question by reasonable basketball minds.

And enough with the Top 10 to 15 nonsense. That's weak. There are a VERY clear cut 9 top guys. And acutally its 8 1/2. Blake can't defend and is a half step back, but his big playoffs served notice masyeb he belongs in the top group (notably though he has not been a good playoff performer before).

Anyway:
Lebron
Durant (if the foot is healed)
Westbrook
Curry
Harden
Davis
Cousins
Cp3
Blake

its a clear group, and nobody outside the group has a good argument why they should be in it. Aldridge would have been the 10th guy last year on numbers, but he was never as special/talented as the above guys, not as efficient, defensive, sparky. Lillard, Wall and Irving are all clearly a step back. Marc Gasol has turned into a bit of a sloppy thinking joke, he's a 17-8 center, get over it. The Kawhi cult goes on for a 16-8 guy. And all of those guys are Top 20, but that Top 9 group is as deep as we've seen all putting up big numbers at once. And there is still Love, who expelled himself, George, who if he recovers can make an argument, and Melo, who once was.

Comparatively there were a few years in the mid 2000s when Peja finished 2nd in the MVP voting because there was nobody else (everybody got hurt or was on trial as I recall), Nahs was gifted with a 2nd MVP just on a shrug because...who else? Etc. Notorious late 90s hole too after Jordan leaves and with Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing etc. all near the end.

Below are Cousins numbers last year and 4 MVP seasons of all time greats. Not 4 random seasons, 4 MVP seasons:

Barkley '93: 37.6min 25.6pts (.596TS%) 12.2reb 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.0blk 3.1TO = MVP
Garnett '04: 39.4min 24.2pts (.547TS%) 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk 2.6TO = MVP
Cousins '15: 34.1min 24.1pts (.545TS%) 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk 4.3TO = oh, definitely not top 5, i guess maybe top 10-15, maybe, i'm sorry, we suck. *whimper* *sniffle*
Malone '99: 37.4min 23.8pts (.577TS%) 9.4reb 4.1ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.3TO = MVP
Duncan '03: 39.3min 23.3pts (.564TS%) 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 3.1TO = MVP

Now anybody who looks at that list and doesn't see the clear MVP potential of ANY player on that list is a dunderhead. Things just have to break right.

Oh, and BTW, that first column, minutes, is as critical as anything. Watch what happens if I do nothing more exotic than bounce Cousins up to 38mpg, right in the middle of all 4 other guys:

Cousins '15: 38.0min 26.9pts (.545TS%) 14.2reb 4.0ast 1.7stl 1.9blk 4.8TO
Barkley '93: 37.6min 25.6pts (.596TS%) 12.2reb 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.0blk 3.1TO
Garnett '04: 39.4min 24.2pts (.547TS%) 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk 2.6TO
Malone '99: 37.4min 23.8pts (.577TS%) 9.4reb 4.1ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
Duncan '03: 39.3min 23.3pts (.564TS%) 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 3.1TO
 
#27
It's really hard to argue that Cousins is a top 5 player, but we know he's probably in lock for top 10-15.

AD, Durant, James, Paul, Curry, Harden, and Griffin are all a step higher. He's probably comes right after all of them.

Very hard to see him as a MVP candidate next year unless he takes the team to the playoffs and maintains good effiency.

Last year Griffin averaged something like 21.9 pts 7.6 Rebs 5.3 asts and only 2.6 TOs. All while shooting at .500 and fts above .700, however, his name was never in MVP discussions.

Cuz is going to have to have a monster season for him to be talked like in those heights.

I think Harden, Durant, or George wins it this season.
George? As in Paul George? I must say that is a random choice, sir.
 
#28
Until the playoffs came around Cousins was CLEARLY a better player than weenie Griffin. And considerablyt better than Aldridge too.

After that we get into tough comparisons, but this should be noted here: right now for the last few years the NBA has had an almost unprecedented number of high end superstars all working at peak form at once. I don't think the overall talent is as strong as the early 90s type pack of great centers and PFs and Jordan, but all of the guys at the moment are peak at the same time. There are great many seasons when Cousins is Top 5 without a question. Well a question by reasonable basketball minds.

And enough with the Top 10 to 15 nonsense. That's weak. There are a VERY clear cut 9 top guys. And acutally its 8 1/2. Blake can't defend and is a half step back, but his big playoffs served notice masyeb he belongs in the top group (notably though he has not been a good playoff performer before).

Anyway:
Lebron
Durant (if the foot is healed)
Westbrook
Curry
Harden
Davis
Cousins
Cp3
Blake

its a clear group, and nobody outside the group has a good argument why they should be in it. Aldridge would have been the 10th guy last year on numbers, but he was never as special/talented as the above guys, not as efficient, defensive, sparky. Lillard, Wall and Irving are all clearly a step back. Marc Gasol has turned into a bit of a sloppy thinking joke, he's a 17-8 center, get over it. The Kawhi cult goes on for a 16-8 guy. And all of those guys are Top 20, but that Top 9 group is as deep as we've seen all putting up big numbers at once. And there is still Love, who expelled himself, George, who if he recovers can make an argument, and Melo, who once was.

Comparatively there were a few years in the mid 2000s when Peja finished 2nd in the MVP voting because there was nobody else (everybody got hurt or was on trial as I recall), Nahs was gifted with a 2nd MVP just on a shrug because...who else? Etc. Notorious late 90s hole too after Jordan leaves and with Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing etc. all near the end.

Below are Cousins numbers last year and 4 MVP seasons of all time greats. Not 4 random seasons, 4 MVP seasons:

Barkley '93: 37.6min 25.6pts (.596TS%) 12.2reb 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.0blk 3.1TO = MVP
Garnett '04: 39.4min 24.2pts (.547TS%) 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk 2.6TO = MVP
Cousins '15: 34.1min 24.1pts (.545TS%) 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk 4.3TO = oh, definitely not top 5, i guess maybe top 10-15, maybe, i'm sorry, we suck. *whimper* *sniffle*
Malone '99: 37.4min 23.8pts (.577TS%) 9.4reb 4.1ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.3TO = MVP
Duncan '03: 39.3min 23.3pts (.564TS%) 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 3.1TO = MVP

Now anybody who looks at that list and doesn't see the clear MVP potential of ANY player on that list is a dunderhead. Things just have to break right.

Oh, and BTW, that first column, minutes, is as critical as anything. Watch what happens if I do nothing more exotic than bounce Cousins up to 38mpg, right in the middle of all 4 other guys:

Cousins '15: 38.0min 26.9pts (.545TS%) 14.2reb 4.0ast 1.7stl 1.9blk 4.8TO
Barkley '93: 37.6min 25.6pts (.596TS%) 12.2reb 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.0blk 3.1TO
Garnett '04: 39.4min 24.2pts (.547TS%) 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk 2.6TO
Malone '99: 37.4min 23.8pts (.577TS%) 9.4reb 4.1ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
Duncan '03: 39.3min 23.3pts (.564TS%) 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 3.1TO
Why did you leave out wins? You should be better than this.

Wins are freaking huge in the NBA. No one cares about the excuses. They only look at your wins and your rings. Lebron could've barely loss the finals while scoring 60pts. 5 years from now, no ones going to care about his stat line for the playoffs nor the Cavs almost winning it. They'll always remember the GSW as champs and the Splash Bros. Lebron would just be in the honorable mention as a runner up. We see it thought NBA history. There's a bunch of guys who put up huge numbers and are now forgotten. Winning means everything.

Whether we like it or not, wins mean a lot. Even this year, there were guys who were hesitant to put Cuz in the AS game because his team sucks and we don't win. Idc how you spin it, but you had guys on TNT, ESPN, and NBA greats arguing that Cuz shouldn't be in it because his team sucks.

If those guys didn't think he was AS material, imagine what they'd think if we said MVP?

I never tried to argue that Cousins wasn't MVP material. Suggesting he'd be one next season without getting his team to the playoffs or 50+wins is a huge no.

This means he has to lead too. When has Cousins proved his ability to lead? Never, not even when Malone was here. Malone was the leader of that team. crap went AWOL when our leader left and we saw the aftermath.

This is the year where Cuz can prove he can be a leader by bringing the entire team together and start winning.

Winning games and leading his team to the playoffs will give him MVP votes. Not empty stats.

I'm pumped for next season and I hope Cuz does win MVP, but I'd rather be honest and realistic about it... I still think we win the finals.