Carmichael Dave on the situation of the Kings

[PurpleHaze]

Yeah, I'm sure that ship has already sailed. A public apology (or at least a private one) doesn't seem like too much to ask though. It's not something organizations typically do, but I'd recommend a public apology anyway just to show DeMarcus that we're aware we made a mistake and hopefully we'll make better decisions in the future.

The private apology to Boogie from Vivek should go like this: "I made big mistake in hiring Michael Malone first before having GM in place. Then a second mistake in hiring D’Alessandro. Malone deserved better and you deserved better. Pete screwed it all up for sure but now he's gone and we start anew. Please accept my sincere apology DeMarcus." And if there's a public apology from Vivek should go like this: "I know in the past I've repeatedly said I like to hire people smarter than me. Well, I usually do but sometimes I don't or they mislead me. That was the case with our former GM. He was wrong hire for this franchise and I should have known better. I sincerely apologize and will do better going forward for our players, fans, and everyone in Kings organization."

 

[LPKingsFan]

Catching up on the podcast now. Just under an hour in. First, this group is a massive improvement over the previous show. Second, lots of talk about the ownership group and structure causing dysfunction. Haven't seen much about that here. Anyone know what the deal is there? Seems like the issues at the top might be more than just Vivek.

 

[Bricklayer]

Catching up on the podcast now. Just under an hour in. First, this group is a massive improvement over the previous show. Second, lots of talk about the ownership group and structure causing dysfunction. Haven't seen much about that here. Anyone know what the deal is there? Seems like the issues at the top might be more than just Vivek.

There has been infighting and strife with unhappy minority owners, pro Karl vs. anti Karl camps etc. If Vivek is flat majority owner I don't see how that could matter, but it has sounded like groups fighting for influence which has made me wonder what the exact terms of the partnership were. Why would a 1% owner expect a say? Too many cooks.

 

[rainmaker]

Surprised no one took the time to outline some of what was said.

-Vlade is clearly in charge
-PDA is Woj's source
-PDA/Mullin pushed hard and were in Vivek's ear to fire Malone
-Dave thinks Kings prefer to move the pick
-We're all going to have to sit back and wait for Vivek himself to learn to take a step back. No one will tell him to do so.
-Vivek has been surrounded by "yes men"
-This is the absolute last chance to get it right with Cuz or he bolts
-Karl and Cuz are "not on the same page"
-PDA leaving has little effect on how Cuz feels about last season's fiasco. Actually liked PDA and looks at it as yet another FO member gone and more turnover
-Vivek's meddling has given us a negative perception around league, among players too, free agents
-Cuz/Karl have an uncomfortable relationship

The most worrying aspect for me is with this being our last chance to keep Cuz here and committed, our new coach apparently hasn't attempted to form a relationship with him. This isn't some rookie coach with no experience, this isn't a guy starting off with us in training camp. This is a coach who just had around 30 games to start building a relationship with our franchise player and has failed to do so, failed to take advantage of that. What do we get instead? Karl saying no one on this team is untradeable and Vlade having to come in and provide cover for those comments.

You've got to wonder if Karl's ego will allow him to form a good enough relationship with Cuz. He won't have long and if they aren't on the same page, no matter what we do this summer it goes to be far tougher to win next season if Cuz hasn't bought in and they're working well together. And if we aren't winning, Cuz is going to look for his own escape hatch. Despite Vlade coming in and the cleaning out of PDA/Mullin, it's the Karl hire which could sink this ship going forward if he doesn't find a way to work it out with Cuz.

Also couldn't help but notice a few of us were right all along while taking a fair amount of heat for it. It was just as bad and just as serious as we thought. The threat of Cuz leaving due to massive incompetence is real. I'd expect those labelled as being "negative" around here garner a little more respect going forward. It wasn't being negative, it was focusing on the reality of the situation.

 

[Bricklayer]

Despite Vlade coming in and the cleaning out of PDA/Mullin, it's the Karl hire which could sink this ship going forward if he doesn't find a way to work it out with Cuz.

This has been exactly my new concern. I don't trust George or his ego. he has caused a lot of drama over his career. Its the last major achilles right now. He's clearly a talented enough coach to make it work, the problem has always been George Karl the ego, and in this case the ego is doubly concerning because frankly I have just as much experience coaching an elite center as George Karl. I'm still deeply concerned he doesn't know what he's doing, is going to waste time trying to turn Cuz into something he's not because George doesn't know what to do with what he is. And because he's stubborn he won't admit it and his ego is going to tell him why should I change, I've won 1000 games in this league.

That situation is exasperated by the impression that there are morons within the extended ownership group who think the same way and will give Karl support. Far FAR too many amateurs with their fingers in our cake.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

If we lose Cousins because of Karls ego...man.. I honestly dont know if i'll be able to cheer for this team any longer.... Kings are everything to me, but theres only so much we can take as fans.. We've walked through hell with gasoline boots on for the last ten friggan years.. when is this madness going to end?
We're such a loyal fanbase too, we deserve so much better then this constant BS drama.

Our coach needs to man the hell up and be the HOF coach he says he is.. He needs to get through to Cousins.. I don't blame DMC at all for being upset with this franchise.. I'm honestly surprised he's put up with as much BS as he has.. It just speaks volumes about his loyalty to us fans.. We have to do everything we can to keep Demarcus here.

 

[Albatros]

I don't know what's going on haven't listened to that show yet.

Respect does go both ways though. If this team is to succeed these two individuals need to put away their toys and work together.

 

[otis29]

At this point the onus is on Cousins IMO. He's the common denominator of a dysfunctional franchise that's gone through multiple owners, coaches and countless numbers of players during his five seasons here. Well, him and JT.

George Karl is George Karl. He's not Paul Westphal or Kenny Natt or Keith Smart - he's going to be in the Hall of Fame. My guess is he's waiting to see if Cousins is truly a leader of this group, or if he's just the best player.

Time for Cousins to show whether "desire to win" is just a cliche tossed around by Kings fans to defend his behavior, or if it's the real deal.

 

[NewArena]

wow. Best big man in the league and we may find a way to screw it up? i sure as hell hope not

All i can do is put my hope in Cousins and his will to do whatever it takes to win, over anything else. If that means taking the time to better understand Karl and his ways (because i doubt he's going anywhere any time soon) then im confident that he'll do it. Unless Karl is just that darn difficult to get along with, and i dont really buy that either.

 

[King Baller]

Someone needs to be the wiser more mature person. I would expect it to be the 64 year old Coach, former COY and future HOF. That does not Give the Star Center, All Star and Team USA member a pass.

What we certainly do not need is a repeat of the Don Nelson vs. Chris Webber fiasco from back in the day with the GSW--> http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/18/s...sign-him-trade-him-webber-becomes-bullet.html

Vivek/Vlade, do not let history repeat itself here.

 

[otis29]

I think the 64 year old coach is behaving the way he did at 54 or 44. To imply that HE needs to change, and not the player who hasn't led his team to success in his five seasons (and let's not forget, was the best player on a team that quit last season) - well, it's nonsensical to me.

DeMarcus isn't a kid anymore. Time for him to step up and be part of the solution.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think the 64 year old coach is behaving the way he did at 54 or 44. To imply that HE needs to change, and not the player who hasn't led his team to success in his five seasons (and let's not forget, was the best player on a team that quit last season) - well, it's nonsensical to me.

DeMarcus isn't a kid anymore. Time for him to step up and be part of the solution.

yes, the old fart is behaving the way he did at 54 and 44 -- which is to say like an ass.

George Karl has won a lot of games over his career. And been the root cause of a lot of drama over his career. He's notoriously hard to work with. Has basically been fired on multiple occasions just for being an ass. He's arrogant and twitchy and runs his guys down in the media, and his teams have often mirrored that. Even back when he still used to be a postseason threat the Sonics were notorious for being a twitchy team mentally, apt to fold up and quit at unexpected times. Karl is like that boy/girl friend who constantly brings drama into their relationships. There is always tension, often for few good reasons. And worse off: he's nothing to us. He's an old fart with no connections to the franchise coming in for his own glory, and if he chases off the best player we ever drafted so he can have things his way...well **** YOU GEORGE KARL. You can become the third head on the pike for all I care.

Cousins too is notoriously hard to work with..and yet we had a coach manage to pull it off, and then disastrously fired him. And Cousins has basically been suffering from battered spouse syndrome here. It has been such a ridiculous mess for so long, he's been put through so much, so many different coaches, teammates, front office personnel, so much constant junk, the miracle is he hasn't already asked for out. We are pathetic. DeMarcus Cousins is going to win alright, the only question now is going to be whether it is with us or with somebody else while this pile of poo franchise pitches more excuses to its fanbase about rebuilding and the future and all in all Clippers it up taking square aim at 15 straight years of losing.

Meanwhile we are subjected to a constant battery of this type crap, which pisses me off beyond belief:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/...marcus-cousins-sacramento-kings#comment_tease

The irony would be beyond imagining, the fail would be unrecoverable for the Kings franchise to be the team that gave the Lakers that same piece they have used again and again and again to found dynasty after dynasty. For the Kings to be the team that gave the Lakers the next franchise center to kick their asses with for a decade...they'd never be able to call themselves rivals again. Just pathetic little toads who bent over at will for their "rivals".

 

[jcassio]

Oye, so many drama queens around here.
Yes, I'm disappointed that Karl and Cuz haven't developed a closer relationship, because that would imply mutual respect. But it's silly to think that Karl and Cuz have to have the same kind of relationship as Malone and Cuz to be able to work well together. Relationships come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, including for complicated people like Karl and Cuz, and mutual respect is not synonymous with being "close."
It's also silly to think that we're going to lose Cuz and all will be lost if Karl doesn't become more like Malone, or if the FO makes any more mistakes. People are human. Mistakes will be made. And George Karl is George Karl. That's f ' in reality.
Although I've come to enjoy Cuz as a person and a player, and he's obviously an incredible talent, I'm not a true believer that Cuz is the only path forward for the Kings to have success.

 

[Chubbs]

I see at least one or two people buy Napear's "Boogie is the problem" PR push.

You know who wants people to think Boogie is the problem? Our former GM, and teams desperate to get him as their franchise cornerstone (lakers and celtics in particular). They want his perceived value as low as possible.

 

[Bricklayer]

I see at least one or two people buy Napear's "Boogie is the problem" PR push.

You know who wants people to think Boogie is the problem? Teams desperate to get him as their franchise cornerstone (lakers and celtics in particular). They want his perceived value as low as possible.

Oh, you mean the franchises with a combined 33 NBA Championships since the last time this franchise won one?

Gee I wonder why that could be. Might not have anything to do with not being morons and perpetually taking advantage of the weaker fish with their perpetually idiot managers.

 

[otis29]

Cousins too is notoriously hard to work with..and yet we had a coach manage to pull it off, and then disastrously fired him. And Cousins has basically been suffering from battered spouse syndrome here. It has been such a ridiculous mess for so long, he's been put through so much, so many different coaches, teammates, front office personnel, so much constant junk, the miracle is he hasn't already asked for out. We are pathetic. DeMarcus Cousins is going to win alright, the only question now is going to be whether it is with us or with somebody else while this pile of poo franchise pitches more excuses to its fanbase about rebuilding and the future and all in all Clippers it up taking square aim at 15 straight years of losing.

Sorry, I can't buy the idea of DeMarcus as a victim here. This franchise is dysfunctional certainly - it's also bent over backwards to let Boogie know he's the center of their universe. Plus, the player has been one of his own worst enemies over the five seasons he's here. Again, he's the common denominator through so much transition.

Karl's certainly a pain in the ass, much like many good to great coaches - so he's a successful pain in the ass. It would be refreshing to see DMC bridge the gap and show that he's the leader so many Kings fans claim he can be.

Anyway, I think it's dangerous to get into the black-and-white, either-or thing with these guys. They've all got to be professionals. I just think I'd have more confidence in Boogie as a cornerstone if he took the initiative here.

 

[otis29]

Oh, you mean the franchises with a combined 33 NBA Championships since the last time this franchise won one?

Gee I wonder why that could be. Might not have anything to do with not being morons and perpetually taking advantage of the weaker fish with their perpetually idiot managers.

In the Lakers' case, I think it's a different animal now. This is the same crew that thought building around Dwight Howard was a good idea.

 

[pshn80]

Tiresome, tiresome, tiresome. The proof is n the pudding. The first tastings will be in November. Let's ease up on the horse corpse.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sorry, I can't buy the idea of DeMarcus as a victim here. This franchise is dysfunctional certainly - it's also bent over backwards to let Boogie know he's the center of their universe. Plus, the player has been one of his own worst enemies over the five seasons he's here. Again, he's the common denominator through so much transition.

Yeah, he's the common denominator.

He was obviously the slimewad who tried to steal the ****ing team and ran it into the ground for lack of money.

He was the idiot firing coaches in the front office for personal vendettas.

He was the moron GMs drafting Jimmer Fredette over Kawhi Leonard, Thomas Robinson over Drummond and Lillard, and all the rest.

He let Tyreke go, and IT go and got nothing for any of them. He traded for and picked up off the scrap heap 52 different teamamtes over his 5 year career, not a single one of whom has ever won a single award or spot on any postseason team, other than All Scrub.

Its an utter bullcrap line. And if you've been getting it from Grant you can tell that moron I said so and would be happy to pants him on air anytime he wants to get that tech off his save me I'm being humiliated button he's got in the booth.


You will notice all the former Kings coaches and front office personnel that have gone on to great and success in similar positions...oh no you won't. Because they have all been idiots and losers except the one guy that Cousins actually liked, and the one guy who will actually have an NBA future. All organizational dysfunction always starts at the top.

 

[funkykingston]

Meanwhile we are subjected to a constant battery of this type crap, which pisses me off beyond belief:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/...marcus-cousins-sacramento-kings#comment_tease

The irony would be beyond imagining, the fail would be unrecoverable for the Kings franchise to be the team that gave the Lakers that same piece they have used again and again and again to found dynasty after dynasty. For the Kings to be the team that gave the Lakers the next franchise center to kick their asses with for a decade...they'd never be able to call themselves rivals again. Just pathetic little toads who bent over at will for their "rivals".

If the Lakers offered up the #2, #27 and Jordan Clarkson for Boogie I'd consider it.

Not because it's a good trade (it isn't) or because Okafor is a tranformational talent (he isn't) but because of this simple fact:

I have ZERO faith that this Kings group can turn things around. Zero. As an enormous Divac fan and obviously as a Kings fan I wish I did. I'm even slightly surprised to say that because it wasn't until I started responding to this post that I realized that it's the case.

But if CD is right and this season is the Kings last chance before he bullies his way out of town then it means right now the Kings might get pennies on the dollar for trading him but avoid getting pesos on the dollar when everyone realizes the Kings have no leverage left.

And of course it would mean trading Rudy Gay as well. We all know what happens to his efficiency (and trade value) when Rudy becomes the first option on offense.

So it would mean a total gut job and rebuild. Which is the ONE thing I didn't want to see happen with this new regime. Either you choose option A to come in and gut the team and rebuild immediately or you choose option B to make smart moves to build around Boogie and contend. And instead they chose option X - to hire a GM and coach that couldn't ever get on the same page, try to retool on the fly and fail, fire the only coach Cousins has ever really trusted and respected and continue sucking to the point that arguably the most talented player in Sacramento history will finally decide his loyalty is misguided and force his way out.

Because here's the thing. The Lakers can absorb Cousins' salary. That means the Kings now have $24 or $25 million or so to use in free agency in the last offseason before the salary cap explodes. They could overpay to lock in solid talent that will then be UNDERpaid as early as next season. It means starting the seemingly inevitable rebuild at the right time instead of a season too late.

Because that's the tight rope act going forward. Do you blow it up now or gamble on being able to fix things with limited assets and limited caproom? In my mind it's a simple decision. You push to sign a guy like Matthews. You draft WCS if he's there. You make small but smart signings and trades to shore up the team and you let George Karl do his thing and watch Boogie finally reach the playoffs.

But with Vivek's meddling, Vlade's inexperience, Karl and Boogie's differences, the negative perception of the Kings around the league which influences free agents and all the dysfunction that we keep hearing about within the organization I'm finally at the point where I simply say go ahead and blow it all up. If you're going to be terrible then at least be terrible with some glimmer of hope going forward instead of the lurking dread that your best player is going to finally quit on you for good.

 

[Bricklayer]

But with Vivek's meddling, Vlade's inexperience, Karl and Boogie's differences, the negative perception of the Kings around the league which influences free agents and all the dysfunction that we keep hearing about within the organization I'm finally at the point where I simply say go ahead and blow it all up. If you're going to be terrible then at least be terrible with some glimmer of hope going forward instead of the lurking dread that your best player is going to finally quit on you for good.

No.

No you don't.

And to the Lakers, are you kidding me?

I couldn't in good conscience ever be a Lakers fan, but I also could no longer be a Kings fan, and I would tune in just to chortle as the Lakers crushed this pathetic little tin can franchise year after year with Boogie dancing on our/your heads. Its basically the very worst event you could ever posit for the Kings. To be the provider of the next great Lakers center. to trade the Kings franchise player to the one team in all the league you are supposed to detest. To see the ebst guy you ever drafted up in the Lakers rafters, not yours, because you didn't have the guts for him. To fail and be so cowardly you give your supposed rival exactly what it needs to continue treating you like little bitches forever. Its so offensive I don't even have words for it. Its beyond contempt. There is absolutely nothing you could do to regain respect after that.

 

[otis29]

And if you've been getting it from Grant you can tell that moron I said so and would be happy to pants him on air anytime he wants to get that tech off his save me I'm being humiliated button he's got in the booth.

Give me a break. I don't even listen to that redheaded knuckledragger.

I'm just beyond making excuses for DeMarcus. Plenty of quality players have had difficult cards dealt to them to start their careers. Five seasons in, DeMarcus hasn't shown the ability to rise above the management/ownership group to elevate his teammates.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

If the Lakers offered up the #2, #27 and Jordan Clarkson for Boogie I'd consider it.

Not because it's a good trade (it isn't) or because Okafor is a tranformational talent (he isn't) but because of this simple fact:

I have ZERO faith that this Kings group can turn things around. Zero. As an enormous Divac fan and obviously as a Kings fan I wish I did. I'm even slightly surprised to say that because it wasn't until I started responding to this post that I realized that it's the case.

From the Kings' side I would shoot that down instantly. There's just not nearly enough there to justify it.

If you could get Philly to give up #3, and Embiid, and the draft rights to Saric, and some future right-to-swap firsts, and probably a high second rounder this year, then I start doing the math on the whole thing and see whether it might make sense, trying to take into account the odds that Boogie and Karl eventually get along. But before I get an offer like that, I just say no.

 

[funkykingston]

No.

No you don't.

And to the Lakers, are you kidding me?

I couldn't in good conscience ever be a Lakers fan, but I also could no longer be a Kings fan, and I would tune in just to chortle as the Lakers crushed this pathetic little tin can franchise year after year with Boogie dancing on our/your heads. Its basically the very worst event you could ever posit for the Kings. To be the provider of the next great Lakers center. to trade the Kings franchise player to the one team in all the league you are supposed to detest. To see the ebst guy you ever drafted up in the Lakers rafters, not yours, because you didn't have the guts for him. To fail and be so cowardly you give your supposed rival exactly what it needs to continue treating you like little bitches forever. Its so offensive I don't even have words for it. Its beyond contempt. There is absolutely nothing you could do to regain respect after that.

Is it what I'd want to do? Nope.

But the Kings are rudderless, leaderless (for all his strengths Cousins isn't, and likely won't ever be, a leader) and trying to finally break the 30 win barrier despite having little caproom and virtually no tradeable assets beyond the #6 pick (and Gay & Cousins of course) to do it with. I sure hope they find a way to do it. And to build a team that can really compete.

An intentional rebuild would at least let me continue to wallow in the Stockholm Syndrome of being a Kings fan. Because as I've said for a while now, if this franchise actually pushes Cousins out the door with another disaster of a season I think that's it for me too.

 

[funkykingston]

From the Kings' side I would shoot that down instantly. There's just not nearly enough there to justify it.

If you could get Philly to give up #3, and Embiid, and the draft rights to Saric, and some future right-to-swap firsts, and probably a high second rounder this year, then I start doing the math on the whole thing and see whether it might make sense, trying to take into account the odds that Boogie and Karl eventually get along. But before I get an offer like that, I just say no.

I'd take that deal if Philly offered it. From their side they'd have Noel, Cousins and still a bunch of caproom and future picks to build around them. From the Kings side they'd have Embiid, likely Russell (who I'm not super high on actually), the 6th pick, maybe the best young player in Europe and lots of caproom.

Again, not remotely equal value for a proven talent of Cousins caliber but right now I feel like the SS Kings is about to hit yet another iceberg. Good time to trade in that luxury cruiser for some life boats.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I just don't have a lot of reasons for optimism with this team right now.

 

[otis29]

I'd take that deal if Philly offered it. From their side they'd have Noel, Cousins and still a bunch of caproom and future picks to build around them. From the Kings side they'd have Embiid, likely Russell (who I'm not super high on actually), the 6th pick, maybe the best young player in Europe and lots of caproom.

Again, not remotely equal value for a proven talent of Cousins caliber but right now I feel like the SS Kings is about to hit yet another iceberg. Good time to trade in that luxury cruiser for some life boats.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I just don't have a lot of reasons for optimism with this team right now.

I'm with you on this - we've transitioned a lot of the executive staff in the front office, but I'm not sure we have much more practical NBA experience leading us. And the one guy you think they'd lean on for actual basketball knowledge (Karl) is already being transitioned to pariah status.

This permanent GM hire is huge IMO.

 

[Bricklayer]

G

I'm just beyond making excuses for DeMarcus. Plenty of quality players have had difficult cards dealt to them to start their careers.

Name them. Name the ones that had to still experience this kind of over the top dysfunction 5 years in and yet who somehow rose above.

And before you get started wasting your time know that I have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of the NBA for about the last 35 years.

 

[otis29]

Name them. Name the ones that had to still experience this kind of over the top dysfunction 5 years in and yet who somehow rose above.

And before you get started wasting your time know that I have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of the NBA for about the last 35 years.

Yes, I can see you're extremely confident in your opinion. And you've changed my statement. Guys like LeBron and Durant had a hand in changing the dysfunction of their franchises. So perhaps the five years in is a red herring.

But we'll keep trying to crack the 30 win mark. First we blamed the Maloofs, then it was Tyreke, then it was IT, and now it's Karl. Outside of the Maloofs, the rest of that crew has seen better on court team success than DeMarcus.

And I don't believe we should trade DeMarcus just to trade him. We shouldn't be firesaling the guy. If the offers are crap, keep him and hope we get a close to equal talent that can pick up some of his slack on the leadership side.

 

[dude12]

Sorry, I can't buy the idea of DeMarcus as a victim here. This franchise is dysfunctional certainly - it's also bent over backwards to let Boogie know he's the center of their universe. Plus, the player has been one of his own worst enemies over the five seasons he's here. Again, he's the common denominator through so much transition.

Karl's certainly a pain in the ass, much like many good to great coaches - so he's a successful pain in the ass. It would be refreshing to see DMC bridge the gap and show that he's the leader so many Kings fans claim he can be.

Anyway, I think it's dangerous to get into the black-and-white, either-or thing with these guys. They've all got to be professionals. I just think I'd have more confidence in Boogie as a cornerstone if he took the initiative here.

Sounds like something that would come straight from the PDA/Mullin camp. They have bent over backwards to let him know he's the center of the universe by firing the one coach who had them playing with at least a little bit of success, the one coach he and his teammates were all in with.....and fired him 1/4 into the season that started showing some promise. Nonsense.

 

[sactownfan]

https://twitter.com/JasonRoss1140/status/609101192132571136

Rudy Gay And Karl hanging out. Karl looks to be calling balls and strikes