Well, to be fair to Cuz, he is option #1-4 out there, has to lead a roster with Ben and Nik as the premier SGs, with no Rudy or DC... I'm willing to cut him quite a bit of slack. Besides, let him experiment with his talent, what he can do and can't do (for now). He will figure it out himself. For all we know, Karl may be encouraging him to play like that, since the season is lost anyway. The last person on this roster that I am worried about is Cousins.
[Game] Game 76: Kings v. Jazz, 4/5/15 - 6pdt, 9edt
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
Ariza didn't really do much until he played with a HOF in Kobe in LA...he then proceeded to suck until he was in his contract year last year with the Wizards where he really came on strong. Iguodala has FIBA experience and is an all around SF...not SG. Not sure how he is relevant here, or Ariza for that matter. MKG is nothing special...he can play defense and rebound, Hornets are going no where with him.
Look, I get what you're trying to get across....Hood has played a bit longer than Ben, Hood also played for Coach K, is there a disparity between Coack K Pro players and Bill Self Pro players? I'd say so...look at the last couple of Kansas products to come into the league, disappointing to say the least.
I am done with Ben starting, I will be a STRONG advocate for Nik starting next year, if not Nik then give me a veteran and call it a day.
Look, I get what you're trying to get across....Hood has played a bit longer than Ben, Hood also played for Coach K, is there a disparity between Coack K Pro players and Bill Self Pro players? I'd say so...look at the last couple of Kansas products to come into the league, disappointing to say the least.
I am done with Ben starting, I will be a STRONG advocate for Nik starting next year, if not Nik then give me a veteran and call it a day.
These clips were all about last few weeks - how Hood was able to score on good defenders repeatedly. I don't understand, what Ariza's career path, Iggy's FIBA experience or ridiculous suggestion, that MKG is not one of the best perimeter defenders, have to do with notion, that Hood is not doing anything new - ok, the last one might have, if it were true. It doesn't mean, Ben is as good a defender as they are right now, but rather, that he might not be as bad as he sometimes looks, and from time to time he looks and actually is effective on D - he is learning new system or at least modifications of the previous one. Ben is starting to get comfortable and knocking down his open shots lately. As for unforced TOs and wild shots Karl is pushing him out of his comfort zone to improve his skills and confidence in those skills, which lottery teams tend to do with their prospects. It doesn't mean, that Ben will continue to make these mistakes, once he is told to go back to just knocking down open shots and defending, which he proved, he can do effectively. You might remember multiple discussions last season, that shot making for Ben depends a lot on limiting the process of decision making. Under Malone Mclemore had pretty simple decision-making tree: to shoot (if open) or pass (which direction and what type of pass to make - simple throw, bounce or arc). Since drives include a few contingencies - have to think, who would help against, and where the open teammates would be - it requires much longer thought process. Nik was a playmaking guard in college already, so he was instantly pretty comfortable with expanded offensive role.
The problem is the any given night part. He is just all over the place with his performances and his defense has just taken a complete nosedive. With Ben you just don't know what you're going to get. He is an x-factor to the extreme and we don't need that type of x-factor if we plan on building a contender. I think Nik understands the offense better and is better offensively overall. Nik could become a secondary ballhandler if need be... Ben still has issues driving to the basket.
I like Ben I have supported him (mostly) since he's been here but its redundant to have both Nik and Ben. One will have to go and it will probably be Ben because of his raw potential. We don't need them both. We need one of them and a vet. He has good games but we need more than what he's providing.
I like Ben I have supported him (mostly) since he's been here but its redundant to have both Nik and Ben. One will have to go and it will probably be Ben because of his raw potential. We don't need them both. We need one of them and a vet. He has good games but we need more than what he's providing.
The problem is that when people talk about why Nik should start, they describe what they don't like about Ben. Then they say what Nik could be. Nothing tangible. If we're talking potential, Ben wins. Nik is already closer to his ceiling than Ben. Second year players are usually inconsistent. Even more so when the organization is inconsistent. Ben already improved over one off season. Why are we saying he can't improve more?
If we want Ben to put up 20 and 5 every night as a second year player and the 4th option on offense, then we're being unrealistic.
If we want Ben to put up 20 and 5 every night as a second year player and the 4th option on offense, then we're being unrealistic.
While I agree that the kind of player we want to get is very rare and high priced, the flip side is that there is only so much we can improve without pushing Ben out of the lineup (or making a drastic change in the lineup which I see as intertwined).
Let's go (realistic) best case scenario here: we stretch Landry's contract, Draft a nice PF (WCS/Porzingis), snag a good back-up PG like Cory Joseph in RFA, solidify our back-up Center with one of the (realistic) FA bigmen out there (Wright/Biyombo/O'Quinn/Ed Davis/Ajinca) and get some more wing depth with let's say Will Barton. now your team looks like this:
PG- Collison, Joseph, RayMac
SG- Ben, Barton, Nik
SF- Gay, Casspi
PF- WCS, JT, Moreland
C- Cousins, Ajinca
Now that will be hard to achieve (to get all of them with our cap space won't be an easy task) but this lineup is definitely better than the one we have now, the question though is if it's good enough- and I'm torn on this part. on the one hand this is a good and deep lineup, but then I look at the other team's in the west- all 8 playoff teams aren't projected to be any weaker than the team we assembled here. and a look on the team's that didn't made it is even more sacry:
The Pelicans have their own franchise cornerstone in AD and with some adjustments they can be a pretty scary team.
The Jazz have the best defense in the entire NBA (!) since Gobert was moved to the starting job, and as Exum gets a little more accustomed to NBA play and Burks comes back from injury they have a tough team to beat.
The Suns still have a playoff fringe team on their hand next year that can make some noise in the regular season.
Denver looks like it's going into rebuild mode but still got some very good pieces in Lawson, Chandler, Faried and Nurkic, and who knows- if Gallinari will show flashes of his old self that's a very good starting five.
The Minnesota Timbepuppies probably won't look to contend next year, but they do have an interesting core and last but not least I think we are all aware of the fact that the Lakers can maybe spend their way into relevance.
So the question you have to ask yourselves is if what you have now without shaking the roster is good enough, and honestly...I have no idea.
Let's go (realistic) best case scenario here: we stretch Landry's contract, Draft a nice PF (WCS/Porzingis), snag a good back-up PG like Cory Joseph in RFA, solidify our back-up Center with one of the (realistic) FA bigmen out there (Wright/Biyombo/O'Quinn/Ed Davis/Ajinca) and get some more wing depth with let's say Will Barton. now your team looks like this:
PG- Collison, Joseph, RayMac
SG- Ben, Barton, Nik
SF- Gay, Casspi
PF- WCS, JT, Moreland
C- Cousins, Ajinca
Now that will be hard to achieve (to get all of them with our cap space won't be an easy task) but this lineup is definitely better than the one we have now, the question though is if it's good enough- and I'm torn on this part. on the one hand this is a good and deep lineup, but then I look at the other team's in the west- all 8 playoff teams aren't projected to be any weaker than the team we assembled here. and a look on the team's that didn't made it is even more sacry:
The Pelicans have their own franchise cornerstone in AD and with some adjustments they can be a pretty scary team.
The Jazz have the best defense in the entire NBA (!) since Gobert was moved to the starting job, and as Exum gets a little more accustomed to NBA play and Burks comes back from injury they have a tough team to beat.
The Suns still have a playoff fringe team on their hand next year that can make some noise in the regular season.
Denver looks like it's going into rebuild mode but still got some very good pieces in Lawson, Chandler, Faried and Nurkic, and who knows- if Gallinari will show flashes of his old self that's a very good starting five.
The Minnesota Timbepuppies probably won't look to contend next year, but they do have an interesting core and last but not least I think we are all aware of the fact that the Lakers can maybe spend their way into relevance.
So the question you have to ask yourselves is if what you have now without shaking the roster is good enough, and honestly...I have no idea.
We CANNOT do this again with Ben.
Doesn't mean we have to dump him. Does mean that he's completely unreliable, that his numbers have actually dipped under Karl, and that 2 years in we STILL don't know what we have. That's already 2 wasted years of Cuz's greatness. We can't have anymore. So next year Ben is here, Ben is not here, there needs to be a DEPENDABLE option there. Even if its a mediocre one. Ben even with his "up" games is averaging 12.1pts on .418 under Karl. That's not hard to match.
Doesn't mean we have to dump him. Does mean that he's completely unreliable, that his numbers have actually dipped under Karl, and that 2 years in we STILL don't know what we have. That's already 2 wasted years of Cuz's greatness. We can't have anymore. So next year Ben is here, Ben is not here, there needs to be a DEPENDABLE option there. Even if its a mediocre one. Ben even with his "up" games is averaging 12.1pts on .418 under Karl. That's not hard to match.
Don't really disagree and wouldn't mind a 3-4 million vet to hold things down while the youngsters figure things out. The only problem would be that it would stunt growth of either Ben or nik.
But spending the 8-12 million on guys like green, afflalo, etc would be foolish to me, in the context of how it would limit us in ways the improve other areas if need.
But spending the 8-12 million on guys like green, afflalo, etc would be foolish to me, in the context of how it would limit us in ways the improve other areas if need.
He had the worst 20 5 4 and 4 game I've ever seen. Remember Cousins frustration on that fast break where Ben dropped the ball, passed out to Cousins, then Cousins hits him inside immediately with a sweet pass that goes right through McLemore's hands for a turnover. Cousins then turns and drops a huge f bomb on TV.
That was how the other half of his game went. His numbers looked solid in the end but when you look in the between the numbers and see how he actually played, it was a horrific game of screw ups. Not only racking up his own turnovers but racking them up for his teammates as well.
That was how the other half of his game went. His numbers looked solid in the end but when you look in the between the numbers and see how he actually played, it was a horrific game of screw ups. Not only racking up his own turnovers but racking them up for his teammates as well.
I remember the play. It was a miscommunication. Ben was trying to get out of the lane and out of Cousins way. Cuz tried to get him the ball as he was moving away. It wasn't just a straight drop.
This actually speaks to a bigger issue. If there is miscommunication, throwing your hands up and dropping F bombs doesn't fix anything. It makes it worse. It stunts the growth of young players. Ben and Nik both.
Also, you cite Cousins frustration with Ben on that play as if it's isolated to him. Cousins does it with everyone.
But to try to put everyone's turnovers on Ben is a little much. If Ben was screwing up as bad as you say, he would have been pulled from the game.
This actually speaks to a bigger issue. If there is miscommunication, throwing your hands up and dropping F bombs doesn't fix anything. It makes it worse. It stunts the growth of young players. Ben and Nik both.
Also, you cite Cousins frustration with Ben on that play as if it's isolated to him. Cousins does it with everyone.
But to try to put everyone's turnovers on Ben is a little much. If Ben was screwing up as bad as you say, he would have been pulled from the game.
You are the one who mentioned Ariza, Iggy and MKG. They are all SF's...a better example for you would of been to bring up other two guards who can play defense such as Wes Matthews, Avery Bradley, Jimmy Butler, etc. Ben's problem is strength and length, he doesn't have either. He has athleticism to help him but that doesn't mean he will be a good defender.
Might say as much about the state of the roster as the state of KF. 
I remember the play very well :
It shows how badly Demarcus wanted assists, likely to go for his 3rd straight triple-double.
It's very interesting to me that not much bothers Demarcus more than setting a teammate up perfectly with a pass for an open dunk and they flub it. He's lost his crap when JT does it.
BTW - Demarcus was right for being pissed at Ben - Ben had just recaptured the ball, and was unguarded under the hoop. Demarcus noticed this, Ben didn't and inexplicably vacated his unguarded precious position, causing the turnover. It was a PERFECT example of what both Ben and JT lack - they completely lack the positional awareness on the court to understand that they are standing under the basket, uncovered, and will instead run away from that golden opportunity.
Demarcus is sick of having teammates who are clueless on the court - the Kings desperately need players who are smart enough to understand where they are on the court, and what the smart basketball play is.
Ben (and JT) have proven they aren't it, and (IMO) that they will never learn that.
We cannot afford either of them being the starting SG or PF next year, if we want to take the next step towards being a winning team.
It shows how badly Demarcus wanted assists, likely to go for his 3rd straight triple-double.
It's very interesting to me that not much bothers Demarcus more than setting a teammate up perfectly with a pass for an open dunk and they flub it. He's lost his crap when JT does it.
BTW - Demarcus was right for being pissed at Ben - Ben had just recaptured the ball, and was unguarded under the hoop. Demarcus noticed this, Ben didn't and inexplicably vacated his unguarded precious position, causing the turnover. It was a PERFECT example of what both Ben and JT lack - they completely lack the positional awareness on the court to understand that they are standing under the basket, uncovered, and will instead run away from that golden opportunity.
Demarcus is sick of having teammates who are clueless on the court - the Kings desperately need players who are smart enough to understand where they are on the court, and what the smart basketball play is.
Ben (and JT) have proven they aren't it, and (IMO) that they will never learn that.
We cannot afford either of them being the starting SG or PF next year, if we want to take the next step towards being a winning team.