So, who likes defense?

rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#1
#1
I ask, as its gone to complete ****. Since Karl has come in we've fallen to new lows and flat out have become uncompetitive on that end of the floor. Karl talked about needing to tighten up that end when he came in but we've seen the exact opposite.

Since the AS break when Karl was hired, we're:

#30 in opponents PPG at 109.6, giving up 4.6 PPG more than the 29th team

#30 in opponent APG at 25.4

#30 in opponent FG% at 47.3%

#30 in opponent FGM per game at 41.7

#26 in opponent 3's MPG at 9.3

#26 in opponent 3P% at 37.1%

#24 in opponent TOV per game at 13.3

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/opponent/?SeasonSegment=Post All-Star&sort=OPP_FGM&dir=1

And this is directly connected to our style of play. Cuz has proven he's one of the better defensive bigs in the NBA yet our pace/tempo, whatever you choose to call it, isn't allowing our defense to set up which negates Cuz's ability to solidify our defense in half court sets. When we slow it down, play more of a half court game and let our defense set up, as we saw under Malone, we were one of the better teams in the league defensively. Cuz has shown he can be the foundation of a top defense.

Yet the style we've played since that fateful day on Dec 15th has led to our defense plummeting across the board, first under Corbin, now worse under Karl. We're not allowing our top defender to impact the game as he can due to a chosen style, and it starts inside with Cuz then filters throughout the rest of the floor. Lose your defensive foundation, everything else on that end suffers as we're seeing. And we're not coming close maximizing our defensive foundation when we play at too fast of a pace where our defense can't set up.
 
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swisshh

Starter
#2
#2
Zach Lowe‏@ZachLowe_NBA
Kings are dead last in points allowed per possession -- by a mile -- since Karl took over. Tied for last overall since they fired Malone.

This reminds me of that Advanced Stats ranking of teams where the Kings were on like the second or third tier. There is no reason for the Kings not to be on the top tier of those lists. The ownership highly values it. I feel like they were knocked down a tier or two just simply for failing with the approach and making the advanced stats community look bad.
 
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PoundForPound

Guest
#3
#3
Nobody on this pathetic roster does.

Nobody at the helm, including any of the idiotic yes men that this organization is filled with. Nobody gives a damn while they're collecting that check.
 
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PoundForPound

Guest
#5
#5
The most depressing thing about all of this is that defense is 90% HUSTLE AND EFFORT. It isn't rocket science, if you don't want your man to score you tighten down and lock him up! This team just isnt trying.
 
PurpleHaze

PurpleHaze

All-Star
#6
#6
Kings play defense for couple quarters each game before totally collapsing usually sometime in the third. That's due to laziness, lack of focus, lack of commitment for 48 minutes, dumb as a skunk team BBIQ - not realizing what opponent players are in the game with the ball.
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#7
#7
I would love the team to play better D. But is this issue really connected to the whole pace debate?
From the eye test we get mostly beaten by jumpshots, transition and high pick&roll. Transition baskets result out of our huge amount of turnovers and bad forced shots. Jumpshots and baskets out of the high pick&roll are correlated to defensive assignments, rotations and mainly to effort.
I don't think our bad defense has something to do with Cousins. And everyone else on our roster is athletic and mobile enough to run the floor.
So why should playing faster on offense result in a lesser defensive efficiency?
 
lawlman91

lawlman91

Starter
#8
#8
We need to keep in mind that the playoffs are no where in sight this season. Karl is probably experimenting with defensive schemes rather than trying to win, so we shouldn't attribute these defensive numbers to incompetence. He's a top coach on his resume.

While that seems reasonable, I am of the opinion that this team needs to win and believe in itself again. Confidence affects your game a lot, and the Kings need that. They need to know that they can win with Karl, and not just with Malone. We need to finish out strong; the numbers and the odds of the draft pick and experimentation won't save us nor will experimentation save us. The season needs to finish off with hope, maybe a 5 game winning streak, just like the beginning of the year.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#10
#10
KingsFanGER said:
I would love the team to play better D. But is this issue really connected to the whole pace debate?
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Yes, our defense is not able to set up. It's directly linked and looking at the history of the more up-tempo teams in this league, they're generally poor defensively. There's exceptions, a team like Miami with Lebron or even us under Adelman but in those cases it was more good defense leading to offense. If your defense isn't allowed to regularly set up, your foundation is shaky from the start on many possessions. You react instead of act. The better teams force you into your weaknesses, they don't react to your strengths.

Another aspect however is preparation, intent, how much time is spent in practice and the film room focusing on defense. I can't answer to what extent we do that as I'm not on the team but generally when you're this poor on that end, there's a real lack of preparation. Someone above said defense is mostly hustle and effort, but I largely disagree with that. It plays a part but a fair amount of defensive success comes from preparation before you even step on the floor. A well known example of this for Kings fans should be Christie's recent comments on defense relating to Ben, where he said taking the next step comes from studying your opponent, their strengths/weaknesses and not only individually but the opposing team's system, where they want to go and taking that away.

There's team-wide preparation and schemes which a team like SA is known for but also individual preparation coming from studying your opponent and his personal strengths/weaknesses. Then the heart/effort comes into play in executing that. Good defensive teams aren't good by accident. They prepare. Even down here in the Bay Area, Steve Kerr has spent a fair amount of time focusing on that end and that's a large part of GS's improvement, with mostly the same roster Jackson had. It's not like GS's players are simply trying harder than last year. It's schemes, it's preparation, it's execution.
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#11
#11
rainmaker said:
Yes, our defense is not able to set up. It's directly linked and looking at the history of the more up-tempo teams in this league, they're generally poor defensively. If your defense isn't allowed to regularly set up, your foundation is shaky from the start on many possessions. You react instead of act. The better teams force you into your weaknesses, they don't react to your strengths.
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Yes I am aware if the history. But is this what we are watching every night? Of course our defense struggles, when we force a bad shot or turn the ball over and this is one area of improvement. But is this the reason why we are this bad on defense?
Why for example did we collaps versus the 76ers in the 3rd? What was different to the first two quarters? Was it solely the pace?

Teams like Atlanta or Golden State are rock solid defensively and play at a high pace. And David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Mareese Speights, Al Horford or even Kyle Korver are not known for being the quickest players out there.
 
T

Tyndel

Bench
#12
#12
When you start anything you do it slow. As you get better you can do it faster and more accurately. By trying to start something fast you don't get better you flail around poorly.

We should concentrate on the defense to key the offensive pace you want to set.
 
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alden.viado

G-League
#14
#14
Seriously i dont know who didnt think this was coming when we hired Karl. Its how stupid pdoro wants us to play. He thinks he can replicate the nuggets here but end of the day did they get ultimate success?? No..

Offense can get you to a final but defense wins championships
 
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swisshh

Starter
#16
#16
kingsboi said:
it's all about personnel....and the Kings don't have any of it. That's been the story since Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells departed.
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They defended under Malone. Yeah, they had Collison, but he's not this big of a defensive difference maker. There is really no defensive will exerted out there. I don't know what they're trying to take away or force.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#17
#17
swisshh said:
They defended under Malone. Yeah, they had Collison, but he's not this big of a defensive difference maker. There is really no defensive will exerted out there. I don't know what they're trying to take away or force.
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they are tiring themselves out playing at Karl's "pace". Chucking away shots.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#21
#21
Ok look, enough of this "defense" nonsense.

No team has EVER won a game where they did not outscore their opponent. OutSCORE! And yet you whiners persist in complaining.

Think about it, "defense" starts with a "d". What the hell is a "d"? Some stupid upside down looking p thing? half a circle with a line?? Who thought of that? Now let's look at "offense". Offense starts with an "o". Not only far more logical and artistic than a "d", but hell, its even a geometric shape! And while the primitive "d" hangs around the front of the alphabet, think how much later and more advanced the "o" is!

Stop your whining!
 
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fansinceday1

fansinceday1

Starter
#23
#23
Čarolija said:
No one in charge of this pathetic franchise! There are a bunch of lunatics owning and running this franchise!
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The only thing that will change the direction the FO wants to go will be the fan base turning their backs on the team. When they start to see empty seats, and lots of them, they MIGHT sit down and rethink what the he ll they are doing. Right now the FO thinks that we as fans are being impatient and that they are on the right track.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#26
#26
Remember in the old pre-pace days when this team couldn't guard a three point shooter to save their lives? What's changed? This team can't defend a 3; it can't make a three. It hasn't been able to do that under any coach in a long, long time. Safe to say that a personnel change is in order.
 
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pshn80

Starter
#27
#27
If you are making way too many turnovers, reducing them significantly is a huge first step in improving defense. Also, work really hard on defense, relax and work as a team of free spirits on offense.
 
Grim62

Grim62

Prospect
#28
#28
What I have noticed is their defense is suffering from stupid offensive decisions. Such as dribbling into multiple defenders, forcing shots up into multiple defenders, careless lazy passes that are easily stolen and all these things are leading to fast breaks for the other team.

Last night an example was Cuz competing with Wall to see who could score more. He kept forcing bad shots in an effort to keep pace.

Ben's increased role as an attacker instead of just spot shooting has also hurt quite a bit.
 
IfAt1st

IfAt1st

Starter
#29
#29
Defense in the NBA is about the guards nowadays.
We have the worst guards in the NBA when viewed through the filter of penetration (both given up and not gotten vs the other team).

Our guards can not stop the other team's from penetrating, and they cannot penetrate opposing set defenses.

Beno Udrih penetrated regularly.
Tyreke penetrated regularly.
Isiah Thomas penetrated regularly.
None of them stopped penetration on defense.

The Kings gave away/traded all of them.

Darren Collison is a worse penetrator than all 3, but his defense may well be better. I don;t know if it's enough to explain the HUGE difference in defense we're seeing, but really all it takes is one person to suck at their job on defense, and the entire team defense breaks down. NBA teams are typically good enough to continue to hammer at the weaknesses on the opposing team (except us).
When you combine the loss of Collison, with the horrific defense of Williams (who is playing a LOT more than he did in the beginning of the year), along with the mental lapses of Rudy and continued cluelessness of JT, it's no surprise the Kings are the worst in the NBA currently.

But I still think all of this can be adequately explained by the Kings deliberately tanking.
I think they (as a team and FO) do not want to win.
I am fully expecting more starters (namely Rudy and Demarcus) to start getting "injured" and taking games off soon (I meant to predict this before the Wizard game, but Rudy beat me to announcing it).
 
lawlman91

lawlman91

Starter
#30
#30
IfAt1st said:
Defense in the NBA is about the guards nowadays.
We have the worst guards in the NBA when viewed through the filter of penetration (both given up and not gotten vs the other team).

Our guards can not stop the other team's from penetrating, and they cannot penetrate opposing set defenses.

Beno Udrih penetrated regularly.
Tyreke penetrated regularly.
Isiah Thomas penetrated regularly.
None of them stopped penetration on defense.

The Kings gave away/traded all of them.

Darren Collison is a worse penetrator than all 3, but his defense may well be better. I don;t know if it's enough to explain the HUGE difference in defense we're seeing, but really all it takes is one person to suck at their job on defense, and the entire team defense breaks down. NBA teams are typically good enough to continue to hammer at the weaknesses on the opposing team (except us).
When you combine the loss of Collison, with the horrific defense of Williams (who is playing a LOT more than he did in the beginning of the year), along with the mental lapses of Rudy and continued cluelessness of JT, it's no surprise the Kings are the worst in the NBA currently.

But I still think all of this can be adequately explained by the Kings deliberately tanking.
I think they (as a team and FO) do not want to win.
I am fully expecting more starters (namely Rudy and Demarcus) to start getting "injured" and taking games off soon (I meant to predict this before the Wizard game, but Rudy beat me to announcing it).
Click to expand...
We don't need penetrators as much as we need shooters. Given that our offense can and should be run through the low post, a Cousins iso on the low block or a Gay iso on the low block already puts teams at an uncomfortable position --- should they double, or leave their man, who can shoot? Because running through the post already puts opposing teams in an uncomfortable position, guards do not need to have good isolation moves (for example: shot creating, crossover moves), since they will probably be faced with a close-out should they get a pass from Cousins or Gay. Skills these guards should have include: finishing, kicking out from a drive, and passing to a big off of the drive. Oh, and they also need to be good at making post-entry passes. Already, our guards have gotten a lot of experience making the post-entry pass: its something that they can confidently put on their basketball resumes. McCallum has gotten better at drive and kick, and passing to a big off of a drive. McLemore has, I hope, gotten better at shooting and I hope he is learning how to finish from experience.
 
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