Against PG's, IT would be top 5 in scoring and efficiency but at the bottom in assists and defensive stats, which is kind of the point we're trying to make about him starting. No one is claiming we'd be winning more with him off the bench (especially with our current options) but rather that long term both the team and IT would be better served with a more natural fit as a 6th man.
Lets talk Isaiah Thomas..
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I don't know what he'll get next year because I'm not real familiar with the average NBA contract pay. I'm guessing he'll get upper 6th man pay...whatever that may be. Now his ball hogging and lack of assists are overblown. His defense is not overblown however because it is terrible. Plus I don't ever remember saying his performance is close to the great PG's. He's just one of the best players on this team. Which doesn't say a whole lot but it doesn't mean he's the root of the teams problems either.
I agree with him being better suited as a 6th man as long as we have a better starter on the team than him. The point of this thread wasn't to say that IT is one of the best starting PG's in the game. The point was to get off the guys back because he's one of our best players. That's not IT's fault and his game shouldn't be nitpicked every time out because the team as a whole is bad.
The average salary of the opening night starting point guards was $7,566,421, with a high of $18,668,431 (Chris Paul), and a low of $1,600,000 (John Lucas III). Whereabouts to you expect Isaiah Thomas to fall on this spectrum?
And this is where we part company. I am not willing to stipulate that Isaiah Thomas actually is one of the best players on this team until after we come to a consensus on a working definition of the word "best." But, I will concede my personal prejudices, and inform you that if your definition of "best" includes the words "efficient" or "TS%" anywhere in it, we're probably not going to agree on a definition.
And this is where we part company. I am not willing to stipulate that Isaiah Thomas actually is one of the best players on this team until after we come to a consensus on a working definition of the word "best." But, I will concede my personal prejudices, and inform you that if your definition of "best" includes the words "efficient" or "TS%" anywhere in it, we're probably not going to agree on a definition.
I'm confused by this somewhat. Offensive efficiency has to be a consideration when evaluating players, no? This is the primary knock against guys like Monta Ellis and Marcus Thornton. I would much rather have a guy scoring 20 ppg in 16 shooting possessions than a guy scoring 25 ppg in 27 shooting possessions.
Now, if you are talking about the fact that IT's scoring touches take away from Cousins and Gay, and move them into less favorable positions than they would be in otherwise, you would get no argument from me.
Now, if you are talking about the fact that IT's scoring touches take away from Cousins and Gay, and move them into less favorable positions than they would be in otherwise, you would get no argument from me.
If IT was even half the player his little cult ridiculously claims him to be, it would be physically impossible for us to be 8-18. No way, no how. Top 2 center, Top 10 PG, Top 10 SF now. Man, we're 18-8 and ready to roll.
At some point to justify the continued career long lack of success IT has had in spite of his greatness, you will find you have no choice but to throw his teammates under the bus to continue the justification. Cousins in particular of course. And of course at the point that this morphs into, and the hints are already there, an IT vs. Cousins thing...well, its not going to go well. At all.
At some point to justify the continued career long lack of success IT has had in spite of his greatness, you will find you have no choice but to throw his teammates under the bus to continue the justification. Cousins in particular of course. And of course at the point that this morphs into, and the hints are already there, an IT vs. Cousins thing...well, its not going to go well. At all.
Na, still doesn't matter. All defensive statistics need to be taken with a giant grain of salt. Coaching system, help defenders, who's on the team, etc all play a huge role in defensive success. Add Serge Ibaka and IT's DRTG is probably closer to 107,108. Maybe even lower. The Kyle Korver example is not an outlier. Heck, Cousins being 102 is just not right, while JT is at 109. As we watch all the games, JT has probably been our best post-defender this season. Yet DRTG says Cousins has been far superior to JT.
Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, George, then you have a significant drop off to guys like Deng, Iguodala, Gay, and Kawhi Leonard. For scoring, I would rather have Gay than any of the second-tier guys. I would rather have Iguodala than Gay, but Gay is easily a top ten SF. To insist otherwise is just contrarianism.
Edit: Beaten to the punch by Entity.
Edit: Beaten to the punch by Entity.
You know what's truly pointless? People always dropping the term "haters" to describe those with whom their opinions may disagree.
PEOPLE DON'T HATE IT. What they "hate" is that they've listened to Grant and Jerry preach so much balderdash about just how great the Hustlin' Husky is that they're about to regurgitate their spleens. What they "hate" is that any criticism is deemed too much criticism by those who always want to toss statistics into the discussion without acknowledging that numbers aren't everything. What they "hate" is that some of those who continually preach the greatness of IT don't or won't understand that virtually no one here dislikes IT.
Isaiah is a very good player, especially when he's utilized properly. That for a lot of us means he needs to lead the group off the bench, reprising a Bobby Jackson role that was very successful for him. Any short-term success he has at the starting 1 is, IMHO, only going to hurt him and the Kings in the long run. He simply cannot match up well with a number of PG's in this league and it's not because he doesn't have the skills. What he doesn't have is the stature - and I don't care how long you practice or how hard you try, you can't learn height. You either have it, or in the case of IT, you don't ... and when you come up against some of the better guards in the league it burns you and burns you badly.
We can have differing views on things without all this "hater" stuff.
PEOPLE DON'T HATE IT. What they "hate" is that they've listened to Grant and Jerry preach so much balderdash about just how great the Hustlin' Husky is that they're about to regurgitate their spleens. What they "hate" is that any criticism is deemed too much criticism by those who always want to toss statistics into the discussion without acknowledging that numbers aren't everything. What they "hate" is that some of those who continually preach the greatness of IT don't or won't understand that virtually no one here dislikes IT.
Isaiah is a very good player, especially when he's utilized properly. That for a lot of us means he needs to lead the group off the bench, reprising a Bobby Jackson role that was very successful for him. Any short-term success he has at the starting 1 is, IMHO, only going to hurt him and the Kings in the long run. He simply cannot match up well with a number of PG's in this league and it's not because he doesn't have the skills. What he doesn't have is the stature - and I don't care how long you practice or how hard you try, you can't learn height. You either have it, or in the case of IT, you don't ... and when you come up against some of the better guards in the league it burns you and burns you badly.
We can have differing views on things without all this "hater" stuff.
Cousins numbers have vastly improved with IT starting. Related? Maybe. But there's something to be said when his TS% jumps 10%, his scoring average jumps 2 PPG, and he maintains his same level of USG when IT entered the starting 5. Hardly a case against IT "taking away" from Cousins or "throwing him under the bus"
We'll see if it continues though. Our guys still have had such little time to mesh as a roster and we still have a ton of guys with incredibly selfish tendencies.
We'll see if it continues though. Our guys still have had such little time to mesh as a roster and we still have a ton of guys with incredibly selfish tendencies.
statistically no matter who you ask he is top 10. we traded Chris Webber for crap does that mean Chris Webber was not a top 10 PF? Lakers traded Shaq for crap does that mean shaq was not a top ten center?
don't base your whole argument over the fact Gay was traded. it doesn't work out well for you. Rudy Gay is a top 10 SF in the NBA. Now either agree with it or be wrong, your choice.
don't base your whole argument over the fact Gay was traded. it doesn't work out well for you. Rudy Gay is a top 10 SF in the NBA. Now either agree with it or be wrong, your choice.
the mere fact that some individuals are conflating the impact of demarcus cousins' level of play with the impact of isaiah thomas' level of play speaks volumes. there is a reason that the former is being discussed as a possible all-star selection in an extremely deep field of talented western conference players and the latter is not...
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