Lets talk Isaiah Thomas..

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peacelate

Bench
#31
#31
Kingster said:
Oh, God. Now we're back to Tyreke Evans? :rolleyes: Maybe we can talk about the Webber trade for old times sake?

It's probably telling that a positive post on IT brings up the re-hash of Tyreke Evans. I hadn't considered that some of the IT negativity is just the bitter resentment of those disappointed by the IT experience, but your post and the one of above certainly lend some credence to that point.
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The same people who are criticizing Thomas for developing tunnel vision are the same people who made excuses when Tyreke developed tunnel vision. Interesting.

Off topic I know.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#32
#32
peacelate said:
The same people who are criticizing Thomas for developing tunnel vision are the same people who made excuses when Tyreke developed tunnel vision. Interesting.

Off topic I know.
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The debate has more to do with the forum members who have chosen sides than the player argued about. Kingster ducked the statement that he was critical of Tyreke for essentially the same problems IT has. THE PLAYER IS NOT THE ISSUE. I look forward to next year to see what the warring parties chose as the subject matter..

Let the debate continue.
 
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peacelate

Bench
#33
#33
Glenn said:
The debate has more to do with the forum members who have chosen sides than the player argued about. Kingster ducked the statement that he was critical of Tyreke for essentially the same problems IT has. THE PLAYER IS NOT THE ISSUE. I look forward to next year to see what the warring parties chose as the subject matter..

Let the debate continue.
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I don't see the subject coming to a conclusion any time soon. No need to beat a dead horse.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#36
#36
ESP47 said:
This is exactly what I mean. Cousins gets a pass while IT doesn't. IT puts up almost as many points as Cousins. They're both working hard on the offensive side and they're both not holding up their weight on defense. Yet Cousins always gets the pass.
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You can't be serious. Cousins gets a pass? Were you here before we drafted Cousins, and the majority of the posts about him were negative. He's been called just about everything in the book, not only by people on this forum, but by pundits across the country, and by the announcers of just about every team in the NBA. He gets no break from the officals, and has been called immature, a hothead, a malcontent, a bad seed in the locker room, a big baby, a whiner, and in some cases obscene names. He's been criticized for taking too many shots, being selfish, being out of shape, not running the floor, and not playing defense and blocking shots. And you say he gets a pass? Dude, either your not paying attention, or your just seeing what you want to see. And, if you paid attention of late, you'd notice that Cuz is playing better defense, and that many times when his man ends up dunking the ball, its not his fault because he's had to leave his man to stop the ball because IT, or previously Vasquez, just got picked.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#38
#38
ShastaKingsFan said:
Disagree that a 6th man who competes effectively on both ends of the floor, is not 'at the heart of the team'. Bobby Jackson was a huge part of the heart of that team
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I think what he was saying, was that on that particular team, Vlade was the heart of the team. I suppose its possible for the 6th man to be the heart of the team, but that wasn't the case with Bobby. And that's not to denigrate Bobby Jackson, who was a very valuable player for the Kings, and a great spark plug off the bench.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#43
#43
Personally, I would rather NOT have IT starting. He's a good 6th man like mostly everyone here thinks.

BUT....

In regards to the bashing you will find most of the bashing going on by the same people who were huge Tyreke Evans fans. Coincidence? Probably not but some people like to wear tinfoil hats so they may think what they like....
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#44
#44
Gary said:
Personally, I would rather NOT have IT starting. He's a good 6th man like mostly everyone here thinks.

BUT....

In regards to the bashing you will find most of the bashing going on by the same people who were huge Tyreke Evans fans. Coincidence? Probably not but some people like to wear tinfoil hats so they may think what they like....
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I'm mostly trying to stay out of this, but there is one huge difference between Tyreke Evans the starting PG and Isaiah Thomas the starting PG, and it starts with a D.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#45
#45
bajaden said:
You can't be serious. Cousins gets a pass? Were you here before we drafted Cousins, and the majority of the posts about him were negative. He's been called just about everything in the book, not only by people on this forum, but by pundits across the country, and by the announcers of just about every team in the NBA. He gets no break from the officals, and has been called immature, a hothead, a malcontent, a bad seed in the locker room, a big baby, a whiner, and in some cases obscene names. He's been criticized for taking too many shots, being selfish, being out of shape, not running the floor, and not playing defense and blocking shots. And you say he gets a pass? Dude, either your not paying attention, or your just seeing what you want to see. And, if you paid attention of late, you'd notice that Cuz is playing better defense, and that many times when his man ends up dunking the ball, its not his fault because he's had to leave his man to stop the ball because IT, or previously Vasquez, just got picked.
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I'm just talking about this year. It's not an IT vs. Cousins thing. It's about getting the fans to quit busting IT's balls every game while acting like Cousins is the only reason why we were even in it in the first place. They're both playing very similar games right now in terms of success and failures at their positions. Yet one guy is the problem and the other is the best player on the team. Makes no sense. They're both good players with big time faults on the defensive end. They both need to be playing next to a defensive minded player to not get taken advantage of all game. It's funny because when I talk to people about the Kings in real life, hardly anyone thinks that IT is the problem. Yet you come to this board and it's like half the people are blaming him in every game and grade thread. I noticed a few people here blaming IT for everything last year and now it seems to have caught on with a ton of people here for no reason other than to try and find a scapegoat for why the team sucks.

The team sucks because we got screwed by the Maloofs and terrible personnel choices by Petrie. Not because IT is starting. The team was bad with him in his strength role as the 6th man and the team is bad with him starting. The team is just bad. It needs to be rebuilt and they're slowly doing it as we speak. I made this thread because it's just incredibly irritating to listen to people complain every game about how bad IT is hogging the ball when he shoots 50% from the field with 8 assists, while Cousins scores 25 and Gay gets 20.
 
K

kingnunz

G-League
#46
#46
hrdboild said:
I'm mostly trying to stay out of this, but there is one huge difference between Tyreke Evans the starting PG and Isaiah Thomas the starting PG, and it starts with a D.
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IT defense on ball defense is fine, it's the pick and roll defense that needs work and that's on cuz also. He isn't helping IT one bit...
 
S

sdballer

Starter
#49
#49
kingnunz said:
IT defense on ball defense is fine, it's the pick and roll defense that needs work and that's on cuz also. He isn't helping IT one bit...
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No its really not fine. On his best days, he's maybe an average on ball defender but his P&R defense is so poor that teams attack it constantly.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#50
#50
Ricky Rubio is a good defender and elite playmaker with a far more talented supporting cast yet the Wolves are not over 500. since he's a liablity on offence cause he can't make open lay ups and shoots meaning they play 4 on 5 when the ball is not in his hands. If he was on our roster everyone would complain he's a liablity on offence and that we need a guard who can make open shots and yet all of you want this type of player starting.

Isaiah Thomas is fine the way he is, he's a starting PG in this L making little money and has unlike Rubio shown improvement. What Isaiah Thomas lacks at times in D and playmaking he makes up for with his energy and scoring and he has for the most part since starting done a great job getting everyone involved.
 
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sdballer

Starter
#51
#51
andremiller07 said:
Ricky Rubio is a good defender and elite playmaker with a far more talented supporting cast yet the Wolves are not over 500. since he's a liablity on offence cause he can't make open lay ups and shoots meaning they play 4 on 5 when the ball is not in his hands. If he was on our roster everyone would complain he's a liablity on offence and that we need a guard who can make open shots and yet all of you want this type of player starting.

Isaiah Thomas is fine the way he is, he's a starting PG in this L making little money and has unlike Rubio shown improvement. What Isaiah Thomas lacks at times in D and playmaking he makes up for with his energy and scoring and he has for the most part since starting done a great job getting everyone involved.
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What does Rubio have to do with this? The Wolves are a game under .500 and I don't think anyone is even making a comparison between the 2. Most of the fans that think IT shouldn't be starting don't even want a PG like Rubio. We want someone who will defend, help our other primary scorers to score and shoot when needed. We don't want a 5'9" version of Kevin Martin running the team.

Honestly, this argument is getting so ridiculous with the amount of nonsense that gets thrown in. Everyone thinks he's a terrific value with his deal. Everyone admires his ability to score efficiently. Everyone understands that the team has a number of other problems, especially on d. There is just a segment of the site that thinks IT is better suited for a role off the bench. Why is that so hard for the IT fans to get?
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#52
#52
sdballer said:
What does Rubio have to do with this? The Wolves are a game under .500 and I don't think anyone is even making a comparison between the 2. Most of the fans that think IT shouldn't be starting don't even want a PG like Rubio. We want someone who will defend, help our other primary scorers to score and shoot when needed. We don't want a 5'9" version of Kevin Martin running the team.

Honestly, this argument is getting so ridiculous with the amount of nonsense that gets thrown in. Everyone thinks he's a terrific value with his deal. Everyone admires his ability to score efficiently. Everyone understands that the team has a number of other problems, especially on d. There is just a segment of the site that thinks IT is better suited for a role off the bench. Why is that so hard for the IT fans to get?
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Cause he's done a good job as the starter
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#53
#53
ESP47 said:
I'm just talking about this year. It's not an IT vs. Cousins thing. It's about getting the fans to quit busting IT's balls every game while acting like Cousins is the only reason why we were even in it in the first place. They're both playing very similar games right now in terms of success and failures at their positions.
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That's simply not true.

Cuz is ranked #1 among centers in scoring.
Ranked #3 among centers in rebs.
Ranked #2 among centers in double doubles.
Tied for #2 among centers is APG.
#1 among center for steals per game.
#6 across entire league in PER

Cuz's DRtg is 102.
IT's DRtg is 115.
(the lower the better)

Your statement is complete and utter bull dooky. There are no similarities between the two when stacking them up against their counterparts at their positions.
 
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T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#54
#54
sdballer said:
What does Rubio have to do with this? The Wolves are a game under .500 and I don't think anyone is even making a comparison between the 2. Most of the fans that think IT shouldn't be starting don't even want a PG like Rubio. We want someone who will defend, help our other primary scorers to score and shoot when needed. We don't want a 5'9" version of Kevin Martin running the team.

Honestly, this argument is getting so ridiculous with the amount of nonsense that gets thrown in. Everyone thinks he's a terrific value with his deal. Everyone admires his ability to score efficiently. Everyone understands that the team has a number of other problems, especially on d. There is just a segment of the site that thinks IT is better suited for a role off the bench. Why is that so hard for the IT fans to get?
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The irony of what you just said is Rubio 1 of 2 guys who models there game after those traits. Rondo being the other. And both those guys are severe liabilities scoring the ball.

And if you don't want Rubio, then Rondo is essentially the only PG in the entire league that a portion of Kings fans would be happy with? Hmm, hmm, hmm
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#55
#55
rainmaker said:
That's simply not true.

Cuz is ranked #1 among centers in scoring.
Ranked #3 among centers in rebs.
Ranked #2 among centers in double doubles.
Tied for #2 among centers is APG.
#1 among center for steals per game.
#6 across entire league in PER

Cuz's DRtg is 102.
IT's DRtg is 115.
(the lower the better)

Your statement is complete and utter bull dooky. There are no similarities between the two when stacking them up against their counterparts at their positions.
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Drtg sucks. Especially for perimeter players. Just pointing that out there.

Do you have the PG rankings? Would be interesting to see where IT's starting numbers rank against the league
 
S

sdballer

Starter
#56
#56
The_Jamal said:
The irony of what you just said is Rubio 1 of 2 guys who models there game after those traits. Rondo being the other. And both those guys are severe liabilities scoring the ball.

And if you don't want Rubio, then Rondo is essentially the only PG in the entire league that a portion of Kings fans would be happy with? Hmm, hmm, hmm
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No. I said helps primary scorers to score. That doesn't have to mean a ball dominant pg. It can mean knowing when to get the ball to your star, when to get out of the way, when to take advantage of opportunistic transition opportunities. Really, I think most of us would be happier with a George Hill type of starter than a guy that's a poor defender and most effective scoring.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#58
#58
rainmaker said:
That's simply not true.

Cuz is ranked #1 among centers in scoring.
Ranked #3 among centers in rebs.
Ranked #2 among centers in double doubles.
Tied for #2 among centers is APG.
#1 among center for steals per game.
#6 across entire league in PER

Cuz's DRtg is 102.
IT's DRtg is 115.
(the lower the better)

Your statement is complete and utter bull dooky. There are no similarities between the two when stacking them up against their counterparts at their positions.
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You didn't even stack them up against their counterparts. You just posted Cousins' good stats and ignored his bad ones (turnovers and fouls) that make his other stats look better. Now you do realize that there are WAY more talented PG's in the league than there are Centers right? There's no way to accurately compare their stats against each other anyway. I just go off the eye test. Both guys score a lot, pass decently, turn the ball over a lot and play bad defense. I mean come on, obviously Cousins is the better player but IT is not so far off that he's the reason why we're losing. I'm tired of having to reiterate that point over and over so I'm going to bow out and let you guys think one of our best players is the reason why were losing. It really doesn't matter anyway. It's just annoying to read.
 
S

sdballer

Starter
#59
#59
ESP47 said:
You didn't even stack them up against their counterparts. You just posted Cousins' good stats and ignored his bad ones (turnovers and fouls) that make his other stats look better. Now you do realize that there are WAY more talented PG's in the league than there are Centers right? There's no way to accurately compare their stats against each other anyway. I just go off the eye test. Both guys score a lot, pass decently, turn the ball over a lot and play bad defense. I mean come on, obviously Cousins is the better player but IT is not so far off that he's the reason why we're losing. I'm tired of having to reiterate that point over and over so I'm going to bow out and let you guys think one of our best players is the reason why were losing. It really doesn't matter anyway. It's just annoying to read.
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I asked this question earlier and didn't have any IT fans respond so I'll try again. What do you think teams will offer him next year? If his weaknesses are overblown and he's so close in talent and performance to the great pgs, will teams give him 8+M/year deal and if not, why?
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#60
#60
sdballer said:
IT has the worst DRtng of any starting pg in the league.
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And I still don't care. Drtg sucks. It's a horrible stat. Kyle Korver was also an elite defender, according to Drtg, his last season in Chicago. I'm skeptical of all defensive stats because it's such a team-oriented aspect of basketball. Stats have not caught on to measure individual defensive success.

As far as the "3andD" guys go, there's one huge common factor with all of them. They all play with a or multiple playmaking wings. Hill has Stephenson and George to take pressure off him. Chalmers has Bron and Wade. Beverely has Harden. So if you got one of those guys on the team, you're 1. Really hoping Gay doesn't fall back into old chucking habits as he becomes our primary playmaker and 2. Adding another things Cousins has to be primarily responsible for offensively.
 
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