IT Gay and DMC not a good combination

[beb0p]

This team is not trying to win now though, IT is only a stop-gap starter until we find a more suitable PG via draft/trade/FA.

Now imagine if you throw a 2014 top draft pick into this lineup, sign a low usage unselfish good defensive vet to fill out the starting 5, plus a bench with IT, Landry, Derrick Williams. That's not a bad team at all.

.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, I expect Gay's role here will be significantly different from what he was doing in Toronto. At Memphis, he was usually between 22-25. Still more than a Bosh/Ibaka 3rd-option level (as he should be, really), but less than where he's been at so far this season.

That only scratches the surface of the problem unfortunately. More goes on, but we essentially need to shave 25 points of usage from that lineup. Maybe you can reclaim Rudy, get back 6 or 7 that way. But you are still vastly overcommitted at that point. Maybe we can trade JT for a very limited shotblocker of the 10-11 usage rate variety. So we get another 6 back. And we are STILL a dozen or more over functional. And then it comes to IT, you replace him with a Chalmers type PG and you could finally get down into the 105 range. With a less gunning Gay, with a limited shotblocker etc.

If you were going to keep IT/Gay/Cousins all out there, you basically have to get McLemore and Williams/JT out of that lineup entirely, and put a Thabo Sefalosha type character at SG and a...I don't even know who at PF. Somebody who doesn't ever shoot, but yet somehow still keeps Cousins from getting doubled?

 

[Glenn]

This team is not trying to win now though, IT is only a stop-gap starter until we find a more suitable PG via draft/trade/FA.

Now imagine if you throw a 2014 top draft pick into this lineup, sign a low usage unselfish good defensive vet to fill out the starting 5, plus a bench with IT, Landry, Derrick Williams. That's not a bad team at all.

.

I woke up late and was going to address this issue but I agree with this. We can continue to use IT off the bench to keep the bench strong and also because I think IT may not be a good distributor and his talents would be absolutely wasted as a starter. We would take our lumps and lose a lot. We could pick up our starter PG in the draft in Smart or Exum and be happy. You can go the other direction and get a pg in trade of modest salary and a lot of experience (do they exist?) and pick up the big guy in the draft in Embiid. Cauley-Stein or Vonleh. I prefer going for the PG in the draft as I think we won't have a shot at Embiid.

In any case, let's see what happens for a month or so to determine what direction makes most sense. This is not a time for impatience.

 

[Hadlowe]

That only scratches the surface of the problem unfortunately. More goes on, but we essentially need to shave 25 points of usage from that lineup. Maybe you can reclaim Rudy, get back 6 or 7 that way. But you are still vastly overcommitted at that point. Maybe we can trade JT for a very limited shotblocker of the 10-11 usage rate variety. So we get another 6 back. And we are STILL a dozen or more over functional. And then it comes to IT, you replace him with a Chalmers type PG and you could finally get down into the 105 range. With a less gunning Gay, with a limited shotblocker etc.

If you were going to keep IT/Gay/Cousins all out there, you basically have to get McLemore and Williams/JT out of that lineup entirely, and put a Thabo Sefalosha type character at SG and a...I don't even know who at PF. Somebody who doesn't ever shoot, but yet somehow still keeps Cousins from getting doubled?

Sam Dalembert? Ekpe Udoh? Biyombo? Two of those guys might be available.

 

[rainmaker]

Did I mentioned Vasquez in my OP? Look, my comment did not have anything to do with GV been involved in the trade. I juts think that Gay is not the right player to match with IT and DMC.

That's your issue. You don't match Gay with IT/Cuz, you match a PG with the superior talents, Cuz and Gay.

IT isn't good enough to attempt to match as SF like Gay to him. Gay has to adjust to playing with Cuz as the #1 option, that's it. This idea he has to adjust to IT or make Derrick Williams type changes/concessions in his game and try to fit in with everyone else is ludicrous.

It's the job of everyone who's no longer a top 2 option to make the top 2 options as successful as possible and to play off them. MLM fits into that but his game doesn't allow him to impede on those two and he'll play off the anyway, his game relies on playing off being created for and playing off the attention of others.

 

[Hadlowe]

That's your issue. You don't match Gay with IT/Cuz, you match a PG with the superior talents, Cuz and Gay.

IT isn't good enough to attempt to match as SF like Gay to him. Gay has to adjust to playing with Cuz as the #1 option, that's it. This idea he has to adjust to IT or make Derrick Williams type changes/concessions in his game and try to fit in with everyone else is ludicrous.

It's the job of everyone who's no longer a top 2 option to make the top 2 options as successful as possible and to play off them. MLM fits into that but his game doesn't allow him to impede on those two and he'll play off the anyway, his game relies on playing off being created for and playing off the attention of others.

So what you want to slot out there is a defensive specialist who can handle the ball reasonably well and knock down a three pointer at 38% or higher. Seems like we had one of those guys around here. Where did I put him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/douglto01.html

 

[VF21]

Did I mentioned Vasquez in my OP? Look, my comment did not have anything to do with GV been involved in the trade. I juts think that Gay is not the right player to match with IT and DMC. I also sow GV playing with Gay and Marc Gasol in Memphis and that was not pretty either. I just think that getting tide to a 36 million two years deal, to basically revert back to a different version of last years starting team may not be Ideal. Just think about it, in terms of attitude and personality clashes, IT DMC and Gays starting is not that different to IT DMC and Evans, and we know how well that worked out.

It didn't work out at all ... with Keith Smart "calling" the shots and a pervasive attitude on the team that you couldn't trust anyone, especially fellow players. Let's see what happens when a real coach has a chance before we conclude the sky has fallen and we're all doomed.

 

[Hadlowe]

It didn't work out at all ... with Keith Smart "calling" the shots and a pervasive attitude on the team that you couldn't trust anyone, especially fellow players. Let's see what happens when a real coach has a chance before we conclude the sky has fallen and we're all doomed.

Yes, Smart was a terrible coach. But the fact remains that IT and Cousins want to occupy the same space on the floor when they do their scoring, and that IT does not do a good job of setting up Cousins for easy points. The way I see it, take Gay, Cousins, and IT, pick any two and you might be okay. All three on the floor together, nope. Gay and Cousins need roleplayers out there with them. McLemore is one. JT is another. The point guard is a big question mark, but a ball-dominant, shot-happy point guard isn't going to get it done.

 

[VF21]

Yes, Smart was a terrible coach. But the fact remains that IT and Cousins want to occupy the same space on the floor when they do their scoring, and that IT does not do a good job of setting up Cousins for easy points. The way I see it, take Gay, Cousins, and IT, pick any two and you might be okay. All three on the floor together, nope. Gay and Cousins need roleplayers out there with them. McLemore is one. JT is another. The point guard is a big question mark, but a ball-dominant, shot-happy point guard isn't going to get it done.

We won't have to wait long to find out, will we? I would like to believe that IT can adapt his game. He's not dumb. I would still rather see IT come off the bench and secure that 6th man award. If Jimmer and/or Ray could just bring the ball up the court for a few minutes, we could have the best of both situations. A rotation that only has two of the three on the court at the same time, as you mentioned, might just work very well.

 

[Bricklayer]

This team is not trying to win now though, IT is only a stop-gap starter until we find a more suitable PG via draft/trade/FA.

Now imagine if you throw a 2014 top draft pick into this lineup, sign a low usage unselfish good defensive vet to fill out the starting 5, plus a bench with IT, Landry, Derrick Williams. That's not a bad team at all.

.

When you pick up a $20mil 20ppg second banana, it gets hard to see how we aren't trying to win now. All that crap we just unloaded would have kept us losing very nicely thank you. Picking up a player of Gay's talent, which BTW might be the single most talented player the Kings have traded for since Webb, or at the very least Artest, looks a whole bunch like "Cousins is ready, let's assemble a team around him and try to make a run." We're too young, but we are about one more trade away from not being able to complain we're losing due to lack of talent.

The alternative that we would intentionally pick up a high profile player like Gay in the hopes that he would fail, stop our ball movement, and poison our locker room, just makes no sense. This is a talent grab. You win in the NBA with talent. Now I hate to point out to the numbnuts that you frickin' passed on Tyreke Evans at $11mil so you could get Rudy Gay at $19mil, but there have been rumors ever since attaching us to Andre Igoudala, to Monta Eillis, now to Rudy Gay. We might want to have our cake and eat it too, but its hard to see how pursuing high priced big number vets is some tanking plan.

 

[Glenn]

When you pick up a $20mil 20ppg second banana, it gets hard to see how we aren't trying to win now. All that crap we just unloaded would have kept us losing very nicely thank you. Picking up a player of Gay's talent, which BTW might be the single most talented player the Kings have traded for since Webb, or at the very least Artest, looks a whole bunch like "Cousins is ready, let's assemble a team around him and try to make a run." We're too young, but we are about one more trade away from not being able to complain we're losing due to lack of talent.

The alternative that we would intentionally pick up a high profile player like Gay in the hopes that he would fail, stop our ball movement, and poison our locker room, just makes no sense. This is a talent grab. You win in the NBA with talent. Now I hate to point out to the numbnuts that you frickin' passed on Tyreke Evans at $11mil so you could get Rudy Gay at $19mil, but there have been rumors ever since attaching us to Andre Igoudala, to Monta Eillis, now to Rudy Gay. We might want to have our cake and eat it too, but its hard to see how pursuing high priced big number vets is some tanking plan.

I don't think we picked him up to win this year. If we win this year, we lose our draft pick. That would be a huge mistake. Gay is the piece that needs one more piece. It's a great pickup. We have a possibly OK starting lineup and after that there is a huge question mark. I say "possibly OK" as I'd rather have IT off the bench no matter how he could adjust as a starter. We lose too mucch if he quits being IT. If some of these players could play 48 minutes a game, like IT, we'd be OK but I think we actually may lose more games this year and it doesn't really matter if we win a few more or lose a few more. I think the least expensive PG is sitting in the draft in Exum or Smart. Let's go with our one pg line up, take our lumps, and get a great pg in the draft that will be a starter. IT could then be the leader of a pretty decent bench but without IT off the bench, we have crap.

I think we picked Gay to improve our team and don't know how anyone could say we picked him to fail, stop our ball movement, and poison our locker room. We picked him because with better shot selection he can be a great SF for us.

I can be argued out of this and time will tell very quickly but this is the way I see it.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Maybe Kings FO is thinking about making sure they keep as many fans in their seats and "entertained" by making this deal. It's like, look loyal fans how many high flying dunks we make, how many nail biting games we're in to the end. Meanwhile, we lose most of those games, fail to make the playoffs, but what the heck the fans are relatively OK that FO knows what the heck they're doing going forward. That's the sort of pessimistic view. The other view that's more optimistic is that Rudy Gay was not particularly thrilled about being in Toronto and now in Sac will be re-energized. Be seen as a legit NBA star, like he was for a time in Memphis, falling into line as a top second or at best third option for Kings, accept it, and see CLEARLY that it's Big Cuz' team in the end.

 

[macadocious]

It's super amusing to me that 3 weeks ago we were trying to figure out who we could get shots except for Cousins, now we are trying to figure out who's shots we can reduce to get to Cousins.

 

[VF21]

Maybe Kings FO is thinking about making sure they keep as many fans in their seats and "entertained" by making this deal. It's like, look loyal fans how many high flying dunks we make, how many nail biting games we're in to the end. Meanwhile, we lose most of those games, fail to make the playoffs, but what the heck the fans are relatively OK that FO knows what the heck they're doing going forward. That's the sort of pessimistic view. The other view that's more optimistic is that Rudy Gay was not particularly thrilled about being in Toronto and now in Sac will be re-energized. Be seen as a legit NBA star, like he was for a time in Memphis, falling into line as a top second or at best third option for Kings, accept it, and see CLEARLY that it's Big Cuz' team in the end.

Bottom line, that's what owning a sports franchise is all about - keeping as many fans in their seats and entertained. Obviously, the ultimate way to keep fans happy and in their seats is to win or at least compete for the title. Not sure why you're saying that's the pessimistic view. It seems like a win-win situation to me.

 

[Chubbs]

Maybe Kings FO is thinking about making sure they keep as many fans in their seats and "entertained" by making this deal. It's like, look loyal fans how many high flying dunks we make, how many nail biting games we're in to the end. Meanwhile, we lose most of those games, fail to make the playoffs, but what the heck the fans are relatively OK that FO knows what the heck they're doing going forward. That's the sort of pessimistic view. The other view that's more optimistic is that Rudy Gay was not particularly thrilled about being in Toronto and now in Sac will be re-energized. Be seen as a legit NBA star, like he was for a time in Memphis, falling into line as a top second or at best third option for Kings, accept it, and see CLEARLY that it's Big Cuz' team in the end.

It's also to let everyone know, hey, we have money, and we will spend it. Like we said we would. We might even gamble 37 million on a player. It's a big chunk of cash. It sends a message, considering that gay is seen as a risk and not nearly worth the money. But he's supremely talented.

It doesn't hurt that just doing this lets the fans know, we are trying to win, and we be aggressive. Whether it works or not, it's extremely unmaloofian. And it's only a contract through next season. It's not a long term killer.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

I just don't like the idea of adding Rudy Gay to a young team. We need to develop young players now and next year. Don't we want Cousins, Mclemore and our 2014 draft pick to be getting shots and possessions, while learning the system? I question the wisdom of adding a high volume shooter who teams seem to be happy to get rid of. Unless Malone is willing to really limit Rudy's minutes and be on him when things go wrong.
That would be my prime concern.
adding Rudy could encourage bad habits and increase frustration. You don't want that for young players. And you definitely don't want that with DMC

 

[Glenn]

It's also to let everyone know, hey, we have money, and we will spend it. Like we said we would. We might even gamble 37 million on a player. It's a big chunk of cash. It sends a message, considering that gay is seen as a risk and not nearly worth the money. But he's supremely talented.

It sure as hell woke me up. The people who count in getting free agents, the hired agents themselves, will undoubtedly take notice. Sacramento will no longer appear to be the end of the world. I'll try the joke again as no one giggled the first time around: Ranadive is showing that there is a new sheriff in town and he's an Indian. You folks are too young, politically correct, or some how far too serious to be happy.

 

[Chubbs]

I just don't like the idea of adding Rudy Gay to a young team. We need to develop young players now and next year. Don't we want Cousins, Mclemore and our 2014 draft pick to be getting shots and possessions, while learning the system? I question the wisdom of adding a high volume shooter who teams seem to be happy to get rid of. Unless Malone is willing to really limit Rudy's minutes and be on him when things go wrong.
That would be my prime concern.
adding Rudy could encourage bad habits and increase frustration. You don't want that for young players. And you definitely don't want that with DMC

They have to bench him if that happens. Money or not. The culture has to change, and if he won't be a part of it, then we flip his expiring for people who do want to be a part.

I don't see all our apples being in gay's sack. They don't have to play him 40 per night to justify him.

 

[Glenn]

I just don't like the idea of adding Rudy Gay to a young team. We need to develop young players now and next year. Don't we want Cousins, Mclemore and our 2014 draft pick to be getting shots and possessions, while learning the system? I question the wisdom of adding a high volume shooter who teams seem to be happy to get rid of. Unless Malone is willing to really limit Rudy's minutes and be on him when things go wrong.
That would be my prime concern.
adding Rudy could encourage bad habits and increase frustration. You don't want that for young players. And you definitely don't want that with DMC

Rudy Gay will not be a high volume shooter on this team or he will not be here any longer than a couple years. I trust Malone that this problem will be solved. All Gay has to do is ask Thornton what happens if you don't do what the coach wants. There is also the "Cuz factor." In any case, we have a coach worth listening to and an owner who won't be satisfied with 2nd best and any new player darn well better learn that.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

ya i agree with you Glenn an Chubbs. i think Malone makes it very clear to Rudy that he is NOT the #1 option.

and from what i have heard from Raptor fans, their coach has zero offensive system and just relies on DeRozan and Gay to score off Iso's. thus his awful performance this year and his new reputation as a terrible chucker

 

[VF21]

I just don't like the idea of adding Rudy Gay to a young team. We need to develop young players now and next year. Don't we want Cousins, Mclemore and our 2014 draft pick to be getting shots and possessions, while learning the system? I question the wisdom of adding a high volume shooter who teams seem to be happy to get rid of. Unless Malone is willing to really limit Rudy's minutes and be on him when things go wrong.
That would be my prime concern.
adding Rudy could encourage bad habits and increase frustration. You don't want that for young players. And you definitely don't want that with DMC

We got rid of Salmons, Vasquez, Hayes and Patterson. That needs to be remembered. WE GOT RID OF SALMONS. That alone is worth taking the chance.

Rudy Gay is stepping into an exciting situation, with new owners, a new arena on the horizon and an energized fan base. I think he's smart enough to recognize an excellent opportunity when he sees one. You're talking about our 2014 draft pick getting shots and possessions? Hello? This isn't 2014. It's 2013 and we don't have that draft pick yet. Let's see how Rudy does before we decide he's going to ruin our next year's draft pick.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

We got rid of Salmons, Vasquez, Hayes and Patterson. That needs to be remembered. WE GOT RID OF SALMONS. That alone is worth taking the chance.

Rudy Gay is stepping into an exciting situation, with new owners, a new arena on the horizon and an energized fan base. I think he's smart enough to recognize an excellent opportunity when he sees one. You're talking about our 2014 draft pick getting shots and possessions? Hello? This isn't 2014. It's 2013 and we don't have that draft pick yet. Let's see how Rudy does before we decide he's going to ruin our next year's draft pick.

no i totally agree. i am absolutely ecstatic at the players we just dumped. Salmons and Hayes were my least favorite to watch on the team and Pattersons chucking was annoying and i was sick of Vasquez awful Defense.
don't get me wrong im actually excited about the potential of this roster with Gay. i just am scared of him getting in the way of DeMarcus, thats all

 

[randymoss1881]

ya i agree with you Glenn an Chubbs. i think Malone makes it very clear to Rudy that he is NOT the #1 option.

and from what i have heard from Raptor fans, their coach has zero offensive system and just relies on DeRozan and Gay to score off Iso's. thus his awful performance this year and his new reputation as a terrible chucker

Ya I followed there board on realgm since October cause I thought we would try Gay cause of our connection with there gm. They talked about how Casey wanted gay to take 16+ shots here and they just ran ISO that won't happen here he will settle at 12-16 shots which should increase his efficincy.

 

[beb0p]

When you pick up a $20mil 20ppg second banana, it gets hard to see how we aren't trying to win now. All that crap we just unloaded would have kept us losing very nicely thank you. Picking up a player of Gay's talent, which BTW might be the single most talented player the Kings have traded for since Webb, or at the very least Artest, looks a whole bunch like "Cousins is ready, let's assemble a team around him and try to make a run." We're too young, but we are about one more trade away from not being able to complain we're losing due to lack of talent.

The alternative that we would intentionally pick up a high profile player like Gay in the hopes that he would fail, stop our ball movement, and poison our locker room, just makes no sense. This is a talent grab. You win in the NBA with talent. Now I hate to point out to the numbnuts that you frickin' passed on Tyreke Evans at $11mil so you could get Rudy Gay at $19mil, but there have been rumors ever since attaching us to Andre Igoudala, to Monta Eillis, now to Rudy Gay. We might want to have our cake and eat it too, but its hard to see how pursuing high priced big number vets is some tanking plan.

Yes, this move shows that we are not purposely trying to tank but it doesn't necessary mean the Kings are trying to win now. Like Glenn said, Gay is probably a look/see to gauge how he fits with the team and at the same time unloads a lot of dead weight. Likely seen as one big step towards eventually winning.

For sure, Gay is overpaid and maybe overrated, but he is a SF and Tyreke is not. Wherein lies the problem, the Kings are already too crowded in the back court to retain a SG who can't space the floor for Cousins.

.

 

[The_Jamal]

When you pick up a $20mil 20ppg second banana, it gets hard to see how we aren't trying to win now. All that crap we just unloaded would have kept us losing very nicely thank you. Picking up a player of Gay's talent, which BTW might be the single most talented player the Kings have traded for since Webb, or at the very least Artest, looks a whole bunch like "Cousins is ready, let's assemble a team around him and try to make a run." We're too young, but we are about one more trade away from not being able to complain we're losing due to lack of talent.

The alternative that we would intentionally pick up a high profile player like Gay in the hopes that he would fail, stop our ball movement, and poison our locker room, just makes no sense. This is a talent grab. You win in the NBA with talent. Now I hate to point out to the numbnuts that you frickin' passed on Tyreke Evans at $11mil so you could get Rudy Gay at $19mil, but there have been rumors ever since attaching us to Andre Igoudala, to Monta Eillis, now to Rudy Gay. We might want to have our cake and eat it too, but its hard to see how pursuing high priced big number vets is some tanking plan.

Wrong. FO not resigning Reke means we don't get Williams or Landry either.

Kings trade:
Tyreke Evans
Chuck Hayes
John Salmons
Patrick Patterson


Kings get:
Rudy Gay
Derrick Williams
Carl Landry
Quincy Acy
Aaron Gray

Signing Reke takes us out of taking Mbah's salary for nothing. Which means Williams trade doesn't happen. Landry signed with cap space. Gay deal doesn't happen without GV on board as an expiring.

These "numbnuts" as you so affectionately call them are much smarter than you give them credit for.

 

[peacelate]

Anybody who thinks trading for Gay signifies is missing the big picture. With the recent purging of the roster, it's obvious the front office recognizes this team is no playoff contender. Would a playoff team team trade LMAM for an unproven player in Derrick Williams? Probably not.

When the Williams/LMAM trade went down, there was a contingent on here who hated the trade because it didn't make the team better. The Gay trade makes this team better, if not by talent, then simply by addition by subtraction.

Just two weeks ago, people were questioning the direction of the FO because the team had no second option while shaking their fists angrily at PDA for letting Tyreke go. Now the team has a second option and people are still questioning the direction of the FO because the team is trying too hard to win with a high usage player. Honestly, I would have loved for PDA to package Salmons, Patterson, Vasquez and Hayes for a young, up-and-coming All-Star who shoots efficiently, plays defense, and plays within a system, but we live in reality.

If Gay ends up not working, he can be traded for assets. Andre Barnani just got traded and he isn't half the player that Gay is.

I would have loved for them to re-sign Tyreke because even if he didn't work out, he would be a relatively inexpensive asset to trade, but there is no purpose in crying over spilled milk. It seems as though people still haven't moved on and will always point to the Tyreke in analyzing a trade. Williams for LMAM? Should have just re-signed Tyreke. Gay for our our junk? Should have just re-signed Tyreke.

 

[peacelate]

We got rid of Salmons, Vasquez, Hayes and Patterson. That needs to be remembered. WE GOT RID OF SALMONS. That alone is worth taking the chance.

Rudy Gay is stepping into an exciting situation, with new owners, a new arena on the horizon and an energized fan base. I think he's smart enough to recognize an excellent opportunity when he sees one. You're talking about our 2014 draft pick getting shots and possessions? Hello? This isn't 2014. It's 2013 and we don't have that draft pick yet. Let's see how Rudy does before we decide he's going to ruin our next year's draft pick.

Let's also not forget that 2014 draft pick is unproven. I haven't kept up with this draft class, but have any of them been projected to be sure-fire All-Stars the way Lebron was. At least with Gay, the Kings get a proven player who can player at a high-level in the NBA.

 

[Hadlowe]

If IT can play like last night on a regular basis, I will happily eat whatever crow the IT crowd feels fit to serve. Please provide relish.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Let's also not forget that 2014 draft pick is unproven. I haven't kept up with this draft class, but have any of them been projected to be sure-fire All-Stars the way Lebron was. At least with Gay, the Kings get a proven player who can player at a high-level in the NBA.

Nothing is ever a sure thing, but there are a few could become superstars, not just all stars. The key word though is become. They have to work hard and earn it. This draft is loaded, probably the deepest since the draft of Lebron, Melo, and co.

 

[ppine]

Gay hasn't put on the uniform yet and he is a bad combination?
IT can't look for anyone else and only looks for his own shot? How did he get 12 assists then?
The Kings now have a roster with "athletes" for the first time in a long time.
Do not under estimate the power of a coach like Malone.