- It looks that at least until there is another transaction, we will have IT starting at pg with DMC and Gay playing at the same time. To me, this is a recipe for disaster. Two personalities like Gay's and DMC's should never be in the same team, as that is a negative feedback right in front of you. Gay basically never passes the ball, he dribbles and penetrates that's it . IT tends not to pass the ball, he dribbles and penetrates that is it. DMC hates not getting the ball. He will be frustrated and will spit the dummy every second play, can you see the pattern developing here?. To be honest this seams like a step backwards for a team that was supposed to be trying to become less selfish with the ball.
IT Gay and DMC not a good combination
- Thread starter morsatun
- Start date
This statement is verifiably false. Thomas does pass, and does get assists. The issue, however, is not that he doesn't pass, it's where, and what kind of passes he makes. Thomas has proven to be effective at making passes off of his penetration but, when you're franchise player is a pivot, that's not the optimal place for passes to him to come from.
Thomas does pass, look at his assists numbers the past 2 few games, and that was passing to John Salmons, Patrick Patterson, Chuck Hayes, and Marcus Thornton. Three of those guys are shooting worse than Gay, and the other handicaps you on offense one man. I trust IT to be able to know when he has to feed Cousins, penetrate himself and either score or kick out to Gay and McLemore, or feed Gay on the wings when theres a mismatch.
He might "know" when he has to feed Cousins, but that doesn't mean he's any good it. In fact, if the past several games have shown anything, it's that he struggles at getting Cousins good looks in the paint. Thomas is getting something like seven out of every ten assists on kickouts, and that's entirely too high a ratio when your franchise player is a big man. Very few of his assists come off the pick and roll, or finding Cousins inside. You and others may "trust" that he can make the necessary adjustments to his game, but I am rather less optimistic.
Uncia did some excellent recon work last game about the gap between Greivis working with Cousins, and IT working with Cousins.. You should check it out in the grades thread under IT's grade.
So it is a huge concern, the biggest of the trade. Talewntwise people need to toss the analytics stuff right in the crapper -- this is a no brainer on talent. But the big concern, the HUGE concern, has to be with the sudden arrival of a lot of selfish meness in the starting lineup, and what that means for our dominant center, a position dependent on other guys sacrificing their own little egos...and being tall enough to make a post entry pass. Its the main way this might not work out, and I'm sure Malone is well aware of that fact and must be concocting chucker containment plans even as we speak.
We just put the #1 (Cousins), #5 (Gay) and #10 (Isaiah) usage guys in the entire NBA into one starting lineup. On paper that's insanity, especially while your other starters may be guys like McLemore and Williams, who will want shots as well.
For comparison the two most hierarchial NBA teams at the moment are OKC with Durant (#6USG%) and Westbrook (#2USG%), and Miami with Lebron (#7USG%) and Wade (#12USG%) but look at the rest of their starters. Each has one big getting 14-15ppg crumbs after the main guns get done, and then pure 100% need no shots roleplayers. Our big accepting crumbs would be DeMarcus Cousins, and our need no shots roleplayers would be McLemore and Williams? No, fit matters, and its not a great one without a followup move. if this fails, it fails in a big scrum for the ball with everybody's numbers taking a hit and impact being muted.
So it is a huge concern, the biggest of the trade. Talewntwise people need to toss the analytics stuff right in the crapper -- this is a no brainer on talent. But the big concern, the HUGE concern, has to be with the sudden arrival of a lot of selfish meness in the starting lineup, and what that means for our dominant center, a position dependent on other guys sacrificing their own little egos...and being tall enough to make a post entry pass. Its the main way this might not work out, and I'm sure Malone is well aware of that fact and must be concocting chucker containment plans even as we speak.
We just put the #1 (Cousins), #5 (Gay) and #10 (Isaiah) usage guys in the entire NBA into one starting lineup. On paper that's insanity, especially while your other starters may be guys like McLemore and Williams, who will want shots as well.
For comparison the two most hierarchial NBA teams at the moment are OKC with Durant (#6USG%) and Westbrook (#2USG%), and Miami with Lebron (#7USG%) and Wade (#12USG%) but look at the rest of their starters. Each has one big getting 14-15ppg crumbs after the main guns get done, and then pure 100% need no shots roleplayers. Our big accepting crumbs would be DeMarcus Cousins, and our need no shots roleplayers would be McLemore and Williams? No, fit matters, and its not a great one without a followup move. if this fails, it fails in a big scrum for the ball with everybody's numbers taking a hit and impact being muted.
Last edited:
Since Morsatun is a Greivis fan I believe I will give my opinion. When I first read that we were acquiring him this summer I wasn't that excited due to some of the defensive deficiency numbers I read while he was in New Orleans, along with the fact of reading that the N.O. system may have influenced his gaudy assist numbers. When he arrived in Sacramento and spoke of how he prayed that he would end up in Sac, and that he grew up rooting for J-will and co. I fell for him personally and wanted him to succeed. Early in the season I thought he had traits that made him a keeper, such as his court vision. I also wanted to believe the injury he had contributed to not seeing him at his best. As the season wore on though, as big as a heart as Greivis does have, I just don't think he has the physical attributes, particularly athleticism and speed, to be in the NBA. That isn't an insult to him, as I think he could dominate in a European league given the natural point guard attributes he does have
To tease out something, usg% rates of the starting lineups of some top teams:
OKC
Perkins 10.8
Ibaka 19.1
Durant 30.6
Sefalosha 12.1
Westbrook 32.8
-------------------------
Total 105.4
Miami
Bosh 21.9
Battier 9.8
James 30.0
Wade 27.8
Chalmers 17.0
--------------------
Total 106.5
Kings projected lineup
Cousins 34.7
Williams 17.3 (JT = 17.4, so either works the same)
Gay 30.4
McLemore 20.8
Thomas 28.7
----------------------
Total 131.9
= does not compute.
OKC
Perkins 10.8
Ibaka 19.1
Durant 30.6
Sefalosha 12.1
Westbrook 32.8
-------------------------
Total 105.4
Miami
Bosh 21.9
Battier 9.8
James 30.0
Wade 27.8
Chalmers 17.0
--------------------
Total 106.5
Kings projected lineup
Cousins 34.7
Williams 17.3 (JT = 17.4, so either works the same)
Gay 30.4
McLemore 20.8
Thomas 28.7
----------------------
Total 131.9
= does not compute.
Did I mentioned Vasquez in my OP? Look, my comment did not have anything to do with GV been involved in the trade. I juts think that Gay is not the right player to match with IT and DMC. I also sow GV playing with Gay and Marc Gasol in Memphis and that was not pretty either. I just think that getting tide to a 36 million two years deal, to basically revert back to a different version of last years starting team may not be Ideal. Just think about it, in terms of attitude and personality clashes, IT DMC and Gays starting is not that different to IT DMC and Evans, and we know how well that worked out.
This SI article grades trade Kings "D+" and Raptors "A" backing it up with some fairly logical analysis:
http://nba.si.com/2013/12/09/rudy-gay-trade-grades-toronto-raptors-sacramento-kings/
http://nba.si.com/2013/12/09/rudy-gay-trade-grades-toronto-raptors-sacramento-kings/
K
It's really simple Gay is going to have to adjust his game much like Derrick Williams has or else we just bring him off the bench as the 6th man imo if he really plays better with the ball. Gay seemed to do fine when the Grizzlies were running it through Gasol/Z-Bo that's when he had his highest FG%'s of his career.
Seriously why do we write off every player who comes to play for us, everyone said Williams could not defend to save his life or play SF and he's been the best wing defender we have in the 5 games or so he's been here. Can we just give Rudy Gay a chance the coaching staff does not comprise of Keith Smart anymore they will let Gay know this is Big Cuz's team and you are to play off Cousins and not shot jack like you did in Toronto
Seriously if Malone can improve Travis Outlaw and the way he plays there is hope for every single human being not name JR Smith out there give it a chance. Who knows if it click we got one of the most potent scoring teams out there to go along with some of the most terrifying athleticism I have ever seen on a squad. Can you imagine Mclemore, Cousins,Gay and Williams playing the passing lanes on defence?
Seriously why do we write off every player who comes to play for us, everyone said Williams could not defend to save his life or play SF and he's been the best wing defender we have in the 5 games or so he's been here. Can we just give Rudy Gay a chance the coaching staff does not comprise of Keith Smart anymore they will let Gay know this is Big Cuz's team and you are to play off Cousins and not shot jack like you did in Toronto
Seriously if Malone can improve Travis Outlaw and the way he plays there is hope for every single human being not name JR Smith out there give it a chance. Who knows if it click we got one of the most potent scoring teams out there to go along with some of the most terrifying athleticism I have ever seen on a squad. Can you imagine Mclemore, Cousins,Gay and Williams playing the passing lanes on defence?
http://touch.goldengatesports.com/g...-was-smart-for-the,52a53723025312186c9aee8d/1
Both teams given As.
SI sees gay as creating "salary gridlock by adding on Gay’s money to a base that already includes long-term deals for Cousins, Landry and Thompson?" Huh? It expires after next season. Cousins Landry and JT do not. That's the basis for it being awful? Well they got the facts wrong, which is pretty typical. That's under two years. Not long term. Extremely pricey, but not long. I believe the eye has always been toward next offseason and when the arena opens. That espn can't figure that out says a lot about their current state of reporting . When gay comes off the books. They haven't added anything beyond that.
Both teams given As.
SI sees gay as creating "salary gridlock by adding on Gay’s money to a base that already includes long-term deals for Cousins, Landry and Thompson?" Huh? It expires after next season. Cousins Landry and JT do not. That's the basis for it being awful? Well they got the facts wrong, which is pretty typical. That's under two years. Not long term. Extremely pricey, but not long. I believe the eye has always been toward next offseason and when the arena opens. That espn can't figure that out says a lot about their current state of reporting . When gay comes off the books. They haven't added anything beyond that.
Last edited:
He's such an enormous talent upgrade, and people are mad about that cause he's not the "perfect fit."
Those would be the pro tank at any cost people. They see gay taking us out of the top of the lottery. I think that's what it comes down to. They may be right. Espn/SImprob should have picked on that angle, not added salary.
We've got the great coach everyone wanted, can we give him some pieces to work with? Is that so bad? We may not have the right pieces, but we dumped a lot of the WRONG pieces, and this is a short term pickup. It's not like he has 5 years left on his deal.
I'm sold that they are trying to get better. I've seen enough. I'm not sold they did get better.
Those would be the pro tank at any cost people. They see gay taking us out of the top of the lottery. I think that's what it comes down to. They may be right. Espn/SImprob should have picked on that angle, not added salary.
We've got the great coach everyone wanted, can we give him some pieces to work with? Is that so bad? We may not have the right pieces, but we dumped a lot of the WRONG pieces, and this is a short term pickup. It's not like he has 5 years left on his deal.
I'm sold that they are trying to get better. I've seen enough. I'm not sold they did get better.
Last edited:
Picking nits, but the article above came from sports illustrated.
I can't give the trade anything lower than a B, just because we no longer have to watch Salmons or Hayes play into obscurity. Patterson has been a dud this year, although his rebounding has been improving. Vasquez was, at best, deferential on offense and non-existent on defense. He makes Beno look like an all-NBA defender.
I do worry about chemistry in the starting lineup. I would probably think long and hard about starting Fredette until you see what you have in McCallum. I wonder if Goran Dragic could be available.
I can't give the trade anything lower than a B, just because we no longer have to watch Salmons or Hayes play into obscurity. Patterson has been a dud this year, although his rebounding has been improving. Vasquez was, at best, deferential on offense and non-existent on defense. He makes Beno look like an all-NBA defender.
I do worry about chemistry in the starting lineup. I would probably think long and hard about starting Fredette until you see what you have in McCallum. I wonder if Goran Dragic could be available.
ah snit, you're right. It's funny though, cause espn insider gave the trade the exact same grade breakdown. D-kings. A-raptors. Not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion. It's not like gay is a terrible person, just an outta control gunner at the moment. Get that under control, who knows?
Anyhoo, insert SI for espn. Edit done.
Anyhoo, insert SI for espn. Edit done.
Only if you are relying on the point guard to get them the ball.
As of right now, we have three and maybe four excellent perimeter athletes. If any one of McLemore, Williams or Gay manages to get in a passing lane, they can each handle well enough to manage a fast break and pass to the open man on the break. IT doesn't need to touch the ball.
If you are worried about making the lob play in the secondary break, then, yeah, IT is going to miss that play. He just doesn't see them.
As of right now, we have three and maybe four excellent perimeter athletes. If any one of McLemore, Williams or Gay manages to get in a passing lane, they can each handle well enough to manage a fast break and pass to the open man on the break. IT doesn't need to touch the ball.
If you are worried about making the lob play in the secondary break, then, yeah, IT is going to miss that play. He just doesn't see them.
Not to be overly cynical, but isn't the fact that this isn't hugely likely to work in the win column kinda part of the point? But if you do get that mythical PG either through the draft or trade and make him the conductor of this train next season, then you have something.
I'm now at least partially convinced the FO isn't stupid. They know this while becoming instantly more exciting, we also may not be much better if at all. Again, this isn't a flat out bad thing.
Patience.
I'm now at least partially convinced the FO isn't stupid. They know this while becoming instantly more exciting, we also may not be much better if at all. Again, this isn't a flat out bad thing.
Patience.
I have watched IT try to make those post entry passes as you all have. Unfortunately IT cannot get the passes over the top of the defender. This leaves low entry passes which are easier to pick off and harder for Cousins to grab.
If I am Malone I start a player who can feed the post. He may task Gay and Williams with this role if IT starts.
I would also not be surprised if IT remains in his 6th man role. He can start Freddette or McCallum and have Gay play some Point Forward.
It is ironic that we are hearing the same concerns playing Gay, IT and Cousins as we heard playing Evans, IT and Cousins. The difference being that Gay is a full sized SF.
I can't wait to see how it all plays out
Go Kings!
I have watched IT try to make those post entry passes as you all have. Unfortunately IT cannot get the passes over the top of the defender. This leaves low entry passes which are easier to pick off and harder for Cousins to grab.
If I am Malone I start a player who can feed the post. He may task Gay and Williams with this role if IT starts.
I would also not be surprised if IT remains in his 6th man role. He can start Freddette or McCallum and have Gay play some Point Forward.
It is ironic that we are hearing the same concerns playing Gay, IT and Cousins as we heard playing Evans, IT and Cousins. The difference being that Gay is a full sized SF.
I can't wait to see how it all plays out
Go Kings!
If I am Malone I start a player who can feed the post. He may task Gay and Williams with this role if IT starts.
I would also not be surprised if IT remains in his 6th man role. He can start Freddette or McCallum and have Gay play some Point Forward.
It is ironic that we are hearing the same concerns playing Gay, IT and Cousins as we heard playing Evans, IT and Cousins. The difference being that Gay is a full sized SF.
I can't wait to see how it all plays out
Go Kings!
Without a natural fit between IT and Cousins, it means you are running sets for each player individually. If it is a play for IT, Cousins is setting high picks in order to free up IT for penetration, leaving Cousins in poor position to score. If it is a play for Cousins, you are leaving IT as a spot-up shooter while Cousins works the low post . . . if you get the ball down there at all.
We really need someone who can spot the backdoor pass when looking for an entry pass to Cousins. If the reports are right that Gay, Williams and McLemore are going to be on the floor together, you have to assume a play using double screens for McLemore who is curling up to the top of the key. Watch the plays that the Clippers run with Reddick cutting for the open shot. If you switch to cover Reddick, it leaves Griffin or Jordan open for the lob. Gay and Williams can both finish those plays, but you have to have a point guard who sees the play developing, and I don't know that IT sees it. Of course, there are only about 5 point guards in the league who see those plays.
I'm betwixt and between on this IT/Cousins issue. It seems like every game IT penetrates and dishes to Hayes for a beautiful potential assist, only to see it not be converted because Hayes can't convert. If IT can do that with Hayes, then why can't the same thing happen multiple times over with Cousins? The harder thing for IT to do is to throw it to Cousins from the wing, as Reynolds was saying the other night. I have no idea about Gay's passing ability, but I'm going to be looking in the future to see if he has the ability to throw it to Cousins from the wing.
