Young Kings during the Adleman era

[swisshh]

And now for something a little different...

Since there's so much talk about Peja, and most of it negative or dramatic, I thought I'd look at what Peja is for the Kings. He is Petrie's prize treasure, the secret he found, but he is also the only young player the Kings have drafted and actually developed recently. Which makes him quite special, and perhaps why he is a fan favorite. As opposed to Webber who came here from a troublesome past and two other teams, Peja is homegrown, always been a King and the fans have seen him become who he is. The problem is he's the only young player you can say that about during the Adleman era.

First year of the new Kings, as I will call them, we had a handful of young players to work with. You had a third or fourth year(I can't remember) player in Corliss Williamson, a sophmore in Tariq Abdul Wahad, a promosing rookie with Jason Williams and big old Jerome James. None of those players are on the team anymore. Corliss never found a role in the offense, he moved on to Toronto and then Detroit where he found a role as Sixth Man, a role that he said he was willing to play here, but Adleman never changed the starting lineup despite many fans and other folk calling for it. Tariq was traded for Nick Anderson, and the Kings took a step back that year. Tariq also didn't fit the mold, his shot wasn't consistent enough to stay on the team so they traded him despite the fact he was one of the only players who played defense. Tariq though never amounted to much in this league except as a role player and art appreciator. So unlike Corliss, he never became anything.

Others did though. JWill? Well we know all about that situation, he didn't grow as a player here and was traded for Bibby. Bibby also fit 'the system' better than Williams. I still think the team gave up on Jason too early and he has now developed and become dependable for the Grizzlies. It takes real point guards longer to find there way than any other role in the league. You can't complain about Bibby though, even if he too is another young player who hasn't added much to his game since coming here. It's still the same good shot, poor defense, average passing and creating sort of mini-shooting guard/point guard player that came here the first season. He's just gotten better at scoring and has had his best year this year. Jerome James? He's in Seattle and at times does some good things, so it's not like a thrown away flower. He's just part of a bad trend that is starting.

Second year, Ryan Robertson. Nothing to say there. The next few years? Players like Hedo Turkoglu and Gerald Wallace. Now starters for other teams. Hedo was sent to the bench, becoming the most talented player on the floor at the end of blowouts. It was silly to watch his talent basically school everyone else on the floor at the end of meaningless games. Yet, for some reason thats what Adleman did with him. The next offseason he was traded to the Spurs. Now he's a starter and 20 point scorer for the Orlando Magic. Gerald? Gerald addresses a lot of the problems we have now and he addressed them last season, too. Still he never got consistent playing time and thats just horrible for a young player. I never understood why the coaching staff asked for Gerald to be consistent when he never got a consistent flow of playing. He would play 10 minutes total in a 7 game stretch and then suddenly be starting due to injuries. He also didn't fit the system. So he was left available in the expansion draft and is now starting for the Bobcats and having some good games.

So, my question is will the young talent like Maurice Evans and Kevin Martin even be on this team a year from now? Will they develop? Will they be discarded, because the team has a case of tunnel-vision for their offensive system? Can the idea of getting younger and more athletic work for the Kings when the coaching staff has let such players just.. rot in the past?

 

[skeletor8]

nice post! Letting Hedo go was a tough one for me...especially because we then let Jim Jackson go too....you've got to keep one or the other. Guess they got tired of paying the luxury tax.

 

[MrBiggs]

i've said it before and i'll say it again: Adelman is weak

 

[LPKingsFan]

Well, to start out with, your analysis of Corliss is completely erroneous. He didn't "move on" to Toronto, he was traded for Christie.

 

[AriesMar27]

well hedo had to go to get miller.... so he doesnt count.... jwill was traded for bibby..... he shouldnt count.... if peeler had opted out before the expansion draft we would still have wallace.... so he shouldnt count, blame peeler....

so all you have is james and corliss.... who cares they didnt fit the system anyways.... i miss gerald, i thought that this would have been his season to shine... but now evans and barnes are getting the minutes that he would have gotten... adelman wouldbt have had a choice this year.... wallace would have played and he would have played well....

oh well.... hope martin pans out into something useful....

 

[AriesMar27]

oh yeah... corliss was traded for christie... he doesnt count either.... good look lp.

 

[VF21]

...sigh...

skeletor8 -

First, Letting go of Hedo? Okay, I guess I must have missed something because I THOUGHT Hedo went as part of the Pollard-Turkoglu deal that brought us Miller. Second, we let JJ go because we wanted to give Wallace a fair shot. Third, if you tie that to your statement that "they got tired of paying the luxury tax" I am totally and completely dumbfounded. Do you have any idea how far over the salary cap the Kings are?

MrBiggs - Bring criticism of Adelman all you like.

i've said it before and i'll say it again: Adelman is weak

You might want to remember where you are. You may have said that at the other Kings board you post on, but if you're going to say something like that here you might want to make it look more like legitimate criticism and less like random sniping. Thank you.

 

[KP]

LOL the fact you guys are talking so much about bench/role players like Hedo, Pollard, Songalia, Wallace, and even Barnes and Evans shows how good he is at developing them. Adelman is far from weak. If your mad guys got traded you should say Petrie is weak.

 

[VF21]

well hedo had to go to get miller.... so he doesnt count.... jwill was traded for bibby..... he shouldnt count.... if peeler had opted out before the expansion draft we would still have wallace.... so he shouldnt count, blame peeler....

so all you have is james and corliss.... who cares they didnt fit the system anyways.... i miss gerald, i thought that this would have been his season to shine... but now evans and barnes are getting the minutes that he would have gotten... adelman wouldbt have had a choice this year.... wallace would have played and he would have played well....

oh well.... hope martin pans out into something useful....

Wallace would have played and played well? Hmmmmm. Interesting idea but I certainly am more pleased with the talents of Evans and Barnes than I ever was with Wallace.

We have Evans, Barnes, Martin - all of whom have shown talent. Of course the first two have had more time, etc. but I think Kevin can also develop into something special.

 

[KP]

Wallace hasn't exactly been on a tear this year. One thing you can say about young inexperienced players in the Adelman era, They've almost all overachieved when they were here. Hmmm... I wonder why??

 

[MrBiggs]

MrBiggs - Bring criticism of Adelman all you like.



You might want to remember where you are. You may have said that at the other Kings board you post on, but if you're going to say something like that here you might want to make it look more like legitimate criticism and less like random sniping. Thank you.

Regardless of where I am it is my opinion and as basketball fans we need to be more open to other people's opinion.

Adelman uses a 7-8 man rotation. An 8 man rotation creates exciting, high scoring basketball but can tire out players in the long run and not allow the younger players to develop into the players that they are capable of becoming. Its rediculous to play such a small rotation for EIGHTY TWO games. Save the small rotation for the play-offs. Until then, keep the guys healthy with more playing time for the bench.

He's a decent coach but when you only play your very best players are you really showing off your coaching ability or are you just showing off Geoff Petrie's ability to create a dynamic team?

And the defense? Now that Christie is gone there not a single starter who commits themself to defense when each and everyone of those players are capable of it.

Mobley-decent.
Miller-The reason why I wanted him was because he was tough in the paint and put a body on his man. He was one of three people who can alter Shaq's game.
Webber-He used to be a monster shot blocker his first two years in Sac. It may not be possible now because of his knee but he should still be able to hold a man down.
Bibby-He started a few games for Larry Brown's olympic qualifying team and he started for two reasons 1) Kidd was injured but more importantly 2) He played defense. He played defense for Brown but not for Adelman?
Peja-He's a very good one on one defender. Very underrated but he gets lost in team defense

This is the fault of the coaching staff not lighting a match under the behinds of their players.

Your welcome.

 

[VF21]

My point is simply that you may have made the comment elsewhere but you hadn't made it here. And, after reading your justification, I can see why. Sorry, but IMHO it's pretty... well, how shall I say it? ... Oh, I know. Weak.

 

[nAj jAn™]

Nice post.. all the memories..

Hedo was the biggest loss for the Kings.. I know he is a great player! I thought the 2002 playoffs when Pedja was injured was the turning factor or emerging star of Hedo... He really helped the Kings, with rebounds, hustle and loose balls... Like I said it before, I liked Hedo playing the SF more than Pedja.....

I think those young players you've mentioned, who were traded, were also traded with young talents in return...Corliss was traded for Doug, so it was a great trade...Hedo for Brad....The JWill trade for me was too early, they should let him stay couple more years... And also, when Bobby was acquired, they should let Bobby start, and put JWill in the bench, ...

I felt sorry for JWill, he has talent and his flashy crazy passes was diminished just because he should not do that like all coaches want...He is a great player, those showtime moves, and he is improving now..... I still think he is comparable to Jason Kidd, and he also idolize Jason Kidd when he was a kid... Wow, I didn't know Jerome James was a King.

Well, those were the past, and I like the past Kings.... Even though they were losing that time, ('99 season, and to the playoffs by Lakers) I didn't bash any player, any Kings, no Rick Adelman blaming the loss, BenchMob was the favorite lineup than the starters, no trade players ideas(why would i want to trade someone when you liked all the players), its like you just love that team more than the present Kings....

Sigh, those were the past.......

 

[forza kings]

Wallace would have played and played well? Hmmmmm. Interesting idea but I certainly am more pleased with the talents of Evans and Barnes than I ever was with Wallace.

We have Evans, Barnes, Martin - all of whom have shown talent. Of course the first two have had more time, etc. but I think Kevin can also develop into something special.

Do you honestly think we would have even known about Evans and his talent any more than we know about Daniels, if it was not for the long term injury of Bobby Jackson?
And Barnes versus Wallace?? Talentwise, I don't even think it is close. Anybody who thinks Barnes is a better player than Wallace gotta either know nothing about basketball or be a fanatic homer.

 

[MrBiggs]

My point is simply that you may have made the comment elsewhere but you hadn't made it here. And, after reading your justification, I can see why. Sorry, but IMHO it's pretty... well, how shall I say it? ... Oh, I know. Weak.

Please elaborate.

 

[Gregorius]

Bibby played defence for Brown? Sweet! I thought that maybe he wasn't athletic enough to play defence. I wonder why he doesn't play defence so much here? Hopefully he will unleash his mad defence skills durring the playoffs.

 

[KP]

Do you honestly think we would have even known about Evans and his talent any more than we know about Daniels, if it was not for the long term injury of Bobby Jackson?
And Barnes versus Wallace?? Talentwise, I don't even think it is close. Anybody who thinks Barnes is a better player than Wallace gotta either know nothing about basketball or be a fanatic homer.

Yes!^ ...Just like you knew about Hedo, Pollard, Wallace and all the rest... you guys are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[VF21]

Please elaborate.

Basically I think you're blaming Adelman for things pretty much out of his control.

I will agree his rotation patterns are frustrating and, at times, I want to pull out my hair. But I don't think that makes him weak. In tonight's game, for example, I think he wanted his core players to get the win - or the loss. I believe it was important that they get back on the right track before the road trip. So I had no problem with his substitutions which actually seemed to work pretty well. He has to get those core players on the same page or we're doomed come playoffs.

As far as the defense goes, I saw more improvement tonight than I've seen in a while. AND I saw a more animated, more involved Adelman.

Rick Adelman is not going to change his style of coaching just because some of us don't agree with it. He generally lets the players play the game. He draws up game plans, they have practices, etc. but he has never been a constant hands-on coach. It's just not how he runs his teams. Does it drive me nuts? Sometimes, especially when I'm dying for him to call a timeout to get one of the player's attention. But, unless all the wheels fall off at the same time - as has happened recently - he seems to get results his way more often than not.

I don't blame the coach for a lot of the problems this team is experiencing. We have EIGHT players who weren't even on the roster last year. We have Bobby sitting and rusting on the sidelines. We have Pedja, who has not been up to par so far this year, also languishing on the bench while his hamstring mends. We have had Bibby out for a while; Webber has sat out games; etc. Evans was out for a bit. Through it all, we've still amassed a decent record. Could it have been better? Who knows?

I don't understand why Adelman hasn't played Tag more and I'm totally perplexed as to why Michael Bradley hasn't seen any time. I'm sure there's a reason, however.

 

[iheartBrad]

Guess they got tired of paying the luxury tax.

lol...maybe im tired cuz a lot of things are cracking me up tonight

 

[KP]

I agree he should use Tag more I have a real issue with that, considering we(alledgedly) payed him double what we offered Vlade, but I think his approach to young players has been proven to work. Year in and year out they are always ready to step in and contribute at a moments notice, his approach seems to get the most out of them.

 

[VF21]

Do you honestly think we would have even known about Evans and his talent any more than we know about Daniels, if it was not for the long term injury of Bobby Jackson?

Yep. He showed a lot in training camp and he showed quite a bit in practice. Evans isn't replacing Bobby. Bobby should be backing up Bibby, but he's out so HOUSE is doing that job. Evans, on the other hand, is acting as another SF, something I don't recall Bobby doing with any frequency.

And Barnes versus Wallace?? Talentwise, I don't even think it is close. Anybody who thinks Barnes is a better player than Wallace gotta either know nothing about basketball or be a fanatic homer.

Oh good. I always love to have to make the choice about whether I know nothing about basketball or am a fanatic homer. Hmmmmmmm. Wow. That's so tough. AND SO IRRELEVANT!!!!!

Wallace never showed the drive, desire, heart, etc. that Matt Barnes has displayed. Wallace was athletic but he just didn't seem to have the work ethic that Barnes so obviously has. And Wallace, stepping into the role of his life, has been spotty at best. A big fish on a little team, he has failed to produce or to impress more often than not.

 

[iheartBrad]

^he's been pretty "spotty" with Charlotte...totally blowin up in one game and then "where'd he go" in the next

but he's got a great voice

 

[love_them_kings]

Wallace hasn't exactly been on a tear this year. One thing you can say about young inexperienced players in the Adelman era, They've almost all overachieved when they were here. Hmmm... I wonder why??

yep, this seems to be our problem. When our young, inexperienced players develop, do extremely well and become valuable commodities in the eyes of the rest of the league, the Kings can't afford to pay them what they are worth when they are going to be coming off the bench. The fact is, players like Hedo are great, and I would have loved to keep him, but he would have been coming off the bench. I think it says a lot about Adelman and the Kings system that our role players go on and take starting positions at other teams and do well. I hope that all our young talent stays here and plays well, but if we can't keep them for one reason or another, I hope they go on to play well on other teams.

 

[AriesMar27]

i think that wallace would have done a lot better here than he is in charlotte... he'd have little or no pressure on him... remember that dallas game last year where he had like 26 points before he pulled himself out of the game....with peja out right now... wallace would be getting double-doubles every night.... who wouldnt like 12/10 from him every night? and he would throw down some serious dunks.... ohhh.... thosewere the days.... i almost miss him more than hedo.. .cause hedo left for a reason.

 

[swisshh]

Well, to start out with, your analysis of Corliss is completely erroneous. He didn't "move on" to Toronto, he was traded for Christie.

Yes, I know that, but that's not the point.

 

[swisshh]

Okay it seems there is some confusion as to one of the points of my post. It wasn't about how we let the players go, though I do mention what we got in exchange for Williams. It's more about how the players never grew, outside of Peja. They were never well utilized and though at times they'd come in and start, showing promise and production there were just as many times where weeks of being at the end of the bench seemed to kill any momentum they had previously. Hedo is a big example of this problem.

I would say Corliss, Williams and Hedo have all gone on to be better players outside of the Kings system, so I do not think this team makes them look better than they are. My point is that they never went from seed to a major part of the team like Peja did, and most of those players now are starting or contributing majorly elsewhere.

 

[Bartking]

Okay it seems there is some confusion as to one of the points of my post. It wasn't about how we let the players go, though I do mention what we got in exchange for Williams. It's more about how the players never grew, outside of Peja. They were never well utilized and though at times they'd come in and start, showing promise and production there were just as many times where weeks of being at the end of the bench seemed to kill any momentum they had previously. Hedo is a big example of this problem.

I would say Corliss, Williams and Hedo have all gone on to be better players outside of the Kings system, so I do not think this team makes them look better than they are. My point is that they never went from seed to a major part of the team like Peja did, and most of those players now are starting or contributing majorly elsewhere.

It's a valid and interesting point. Somehow, a player can have one fault and it will prevent him from seeing PT with Adelman. I particularly remember when Pollard was needed desperately against Dallas in the playoffs. He only played significant minutes in one game I think, and contributed a lot of what we were missing. Then, in the next game, he was back on the pine. Sounds kinda like O-tag, doesn't it?

 

[Bricklayer]

However, in order for the point to be really valid, the players would have had to go on and grow signifcantly after they left the Kings. Of all of those players mentioned, really only two fit that formula -- Hedo and GWall. JWill has gotten steadier, but he's also just gotten older and more mature and that explains it as much as anything. He certainly hasn't blown up and turned into a great star that we once thought he could be. And even Hedo a) went to play for Gregg Popovich, one of the best talent evaluators around, and was tossed aside by him too, and b) has only recently started putting up numbers better than he did for us in '02. In fact some of his numbers (rebounding in particular) have actually gone backwards. Only Gerald has really stepped forward with the PT, and he's been very inconsistent (that one does continue to annoy me though).

Its not as if these guys are going off and becoming all world for other teams. Most of the growth that has occured can be explained simply by the players getting a little older and a little wiser.

 

[forza kings]

Oh good. I always love to have to make the choice about whether I know nothing about basketball or am a fanatic homer. Hmmmmmmm. Wow. That's so tough. AND SO IRRELEVANT!!!!!

Wallace never showed the drive, desire, heart, etc. that Matt Barnes has displayed. Wallace was athletic but he just didn't seem to have the work ethic that Barnes so obviously has. And Wallace, stepping into the role of his life, has been spotty at best. A big fish on a little team, he has failed to produce or to impress more often than not.

Do you actually read the posts before you rush for a response? Read my post again, you will notice I used the word "talentwise" when comparing Barnes to Wallace. All the things you mention, desire, heart, drive have nothing to do with talent. And what gives you the right to question Wallace's or anybody's heart anyway?

 

[bigbadred00]

Wallace was ineffective in Minutes played. Same can't be said for Hedo but then again we did replace Vlade with Miller for him. You can't get a All-Star center for nothing right? And without Vlade who would we have this year? Ostertag? Centers aren't exactly that readily available, so you give up Hedo who is playing well but at a position that's easier to replace and get the hardest to get positional player in Brad.

I say it was a win for us seeing that Scot makes around 6 this year and is sadly ineffective while Hedo is also making around 5 this year while Brad makes about 8 being an All-Star. You can't keep everyone and expect to get great players in return.