Willie Cauley-Stein Watch 2019-20

Will you root for Willie to do well?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 26.1%
  • No

    Votes: 7 15.2%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 27 58.7%

  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .
Straw man argument, dear sir. It's not about Richaud Holmes. Trying to build WCS up by denigrating Holmes (or any other player) is irrelevant.
Denegrating someone to lift someone else is ugly, petty, and a lowly way to operate and I do not practice it. I was responding to an argument that the opinions of WCS were based on his production. I gave his numbers from last season which I consider to be GOOD. The comparison to Holmes was not to say that Holmes numbers are bad, but to put in contrast almost identical numbers and reactions to the two players that produced those numbers. The only reason you think I was denegrating Holmes is because you think WCS is a bad player so that comparison to his numbers is denegrating. Its obvious from this thread that I do not share that view.
 
Ok I went and looked at the summary from the game log last year and my takeaway is this.

In 81 games he had 8 games of 20+ points and 27 games where he had 10+ rebounds. Now this is a guy that has all the tools to be a 20-10 guy if he put the effort in, maybe 15 and 8 is more realistic? But he was an 8 and 6 guy. He had 54 games with single digit rebounds including 8 with under 4. For a guy that size and athletic that is unacceptable.

He also had 50 games without a block which is something he was expected to do.

He also stayed out of foul trouble which is to be lauded I guess but a bit surprising that a guy who could be a rebounding and block beast had 67 games with 4 or fewer fouls.

But mainly you see a pattern of a guy who had 1 big game every 8-10 games. And you will see nights where he was invisible in the statline despite getting 12-18 mins. And how the big nights prop up the bad nights statistically.
He was not an 8 and 6 guy he was 12 and 8 guy. But your analysis above paints a picture of a more average consistent player than someone who is consistently absent for weeks and then has these huge outlier games.
 
He was not an 8 and 6 guy he was 12 and 8 guy. But your analysis above paints a picture of a more average consistent player than someone who is consistently absent for weeks and then has these huge outlier games.
Sorry I got 8 and 6 from the top of the page, that is current season.

I'll disagree about him being consistent, unless you want to argue he is consistently underachieving.
 
here is another claim that its just the raw numbers. but his numbers last year with the Kings were 11.9 pts, 8.4 rb, 2.4 ast, 1.2 stl, 0.6 blck in 27 mins. Compare that to Holmes' numbers this year.
I'm talking about this production this year. That's his average this year. This is a guy who believes the kings are holding him back from his payday yet he can't even beat out the competion on the warriors currently.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
He had 54 games with single digit rebounds including 8 with under 4. For a guy that size and athletic that is unacceptable.

He also had 50 games without a block which is something he was expected to do.

He also stayed out of foul trouble which is to be lauded I guess but a bit surprising that a guy who could be a rebounding and block beast had 67 games with 4 or fewer fouls.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I definitely am not defending WCS, but in fairness there were a lot of times he was switched out onto perimeter players on defense due to his athleticism and he was not necessarily in position to get many rebounds. He should definitely have more. I'm not contesting that. But there were some mitigating factors on the defensive rebound side due to the amount of time he spent away from the hoop, unlike many other big men.

I agree on the blocks (shot challenges) though. Not nearly as effective there (or as a rimrunner) as he could have been.
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I definitely am not defending WCS, but in fairness there were a lot of times he was switched out onto perimeter players on defense due to his athleticism and he was not necessarily in position to get many rebounds. He should definitely have more. I'm not contesting that. But there were some mitigating factors on the defensive rebound side due to the amount of time he spent away from the hoop, unlike many other big men.

I agree on the blocks (shot challenges) though. Not nearly as effective there (or as a rimrunner) as he could have been.
Which is why I initially didn't even want to look at the stats because stats can't tell you when a guy is obviously taking a play off, not running down the court, throwing his hands up halfheartedly or not leaving his feet to contest a shot or grab a board. And you could say "that's just the way he plays" but then there were games where he was clearly giving it 100 and looked like a different guy.

Just the other night I posted about the 4th quarter and OT vs. the Blazers where he looked like one of the only guys on the court on either side giving a damn. That WCS is a star. But he doesn't show up regularly.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Denegrating someone to lift someone else is ugly, petty, and a lowly way to operate and I do not practice it. I was responding to an argument that the opinions of WCS were based on his production. I gave his numbers from last season which I consider to be GOOD. The comparison to Holmes was not to say that Holmes numbers are bad, but to put in contrast almost identical numbers and reactions to the two players that produced those numbers. The only reason you think I was denegrating Holmes is because you think WCS is a bad player so that comparison to his numbers is denegrating. Its obvious from this thread that I do not share that view.
Nope. Not even close. It's not about comparing WCS to anyone. It's about comparing the talk to the walk of WCS and WCS alone. Mr. Holmes should not even be part of the conversation IMHO.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I definitely am not defending WCS, but in fairness there were a lot of times he was switched out onto perimeter players on defense due to his athleticism and he was not necessarily in position to get many rebounds. He should definitely have more. I'm not contesting that. But there were some mitigating factors on the defensive rebound side due to the amount of time he spent away from the hoop, unlike many other big men.

I agree on the blocks (shot challenges) though. Not nearly as effective there (or as a rimrunner) as he could have been.
BUT...there were also multiple times when he matadored the rebound, almost as though he felt if it didn't ricochet right into his hands it wasn't worth the effort.

At the end of the day, I found he was exhausting to try and figure out. I was ecstatic when we got him from Kentucky, based on my own eyes and what I read here from various other members who watched him as a player. I expected a defensive star who would dazzle us with his rebounding and blocking prowess. I believe there were even some comparisons (exaggerations notwithstanding) of him to Dennis Rodman. I guess at least one part of that ended up being true...

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...although Rodman's tattoos are of much better quality.
 
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I'll try one more time. WCS did NOT walk his OWN talk. ;)
that is true. but two similar walks (at least number vise) are getting diametrically opposite reactions which was my original point about Willie's demeanor and the perception of him. I think his production gets discounted to a degree by the way he carries himself. But I think this horse is now pulverized :)
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
that is true. but two similar walks (at least number vise) are getting diametrically opposite reactions which was my original point about Willie's demeanor and the perception of him. I think his production gets discounted to a degree by the way he carries himself. But I think this horse is now pulverized :)
Fair enough on all counts.
 
that is true. but two similar walks (at least number vise) are getting diametrically opposite reactions which was my original point about Willie's demeanor and the perception of him. I think his production gets discounted to a degree by the way he carries himself. But I think this horse is now pulverized :)
One was a guy who was drafted 5th overall and acts like he is a max player and consistently underperformed expectations and was just shipped for what is likely to be a 2nd rounder in the 50s, the other was a second round pick, signed on the cheap to round out the bench and who earned a spot in the starting line up and who's absence is a major part of the team's current skid.

I can't imagine why they are perceived differently.

eta: also, Richuan and his mom are probably the most enthusiastic folks in the world and a ray of sunshine on this turd of a season. vs. "you are holding me back" and "pay me".
 
One was a guy who was drafted 5th overall and acts like he is a max player and consistently underperformed expectations and was just shipped for what is likely to be a 2nd rounder in the 50s, the other was a second round pick, signed on the cheap to round out the bench and who earned a spot in the starting line up and who's absence is a major part of the team's current skid.

I can't imagine why they are perceived differently.

eta: also, Richuan and his mom are probably the most enthusiastic folks in the world and a ray of sunshine on this turd of a season. vs. "you are holding me back" and "pay me".
no question Willie did not live up to expectations. he also fumbles his communication with the media, sort of in a similar manner Buddy does.
 
that is true. but two similar walks (at least number vise) are getting diametrically opposite reactions which was my original point about Willie's demeanor and the perception of him. I think his production gets discounted to a degree by the way he carries himself. But I think this horse is now pulverized :)
I don't really think all stats are created equal, Holmes has been on another level and has won us more games in his 30 odd games (despite the team playing like crap all year) than WCS did in the entire 82 game season last year.

The difference between Holmes and WCS is not really effort (it appear that way) but it's that Holmes is confident in what he can do where as WCS will bring it one game and look like a monster and than you never notice him because he's not sure of himself despite all his talk which is a front for the fact he's not confident.
 
Apparently Willie was available to play yesterday but got a DNP CD. Maybe they're giving him a little more time to acclimate to the Mavs, or maybe he's just a depth big? They gave up a 2nd round pick for him. I figure he's going to get playing time, right?
 
I don't really think all stats are created equal, Holmes has been on another level and has won us more games in his 30 odd games (despite the team playing like crap all year) than WCS did in the entire 82 game season last year.

The difference between Holmes and WCS is not really effort (it appear that way) but it's that Holmes is confident in what he can do where as WCS will bring it one game and look like a monster and than you never notice him because he's not sure of himself despite all his talk which is a front for the fact he's not confident.
WCS win shares last season was 6.7. Holmes so far this season is 4.7
So Holmes is ahead, but he did not win us more games than WCS did the entire season last year.
But yes, Holmes plays with more intensity and more confidence.