What Does This Team Need Most?

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

So your solution is to get smaller and worse on defense?

LOL...People all of a sudden wanting to trade one of the best, if not the best, young defenders we've ever had is like...
next level WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILD...
Not quite as wild as all of the Zion talk, though...

 

[sactowndog]

It’s a little disingenuous to simply say both Young and LaVine are bad on defense.

There are certainly different levels of “bad on defense” and by essentially every advanced impact stat, Young is consistently one of the worst defenders in the league year after year. In short, Young’s “bad” is way worse than LaVine’s “bad.”

Then on top of that, you combine one of the worst defenders in the league with Sabonis’ defense/rim protection and you have the makings of an atrocious defense that would be absolutely picked apart and targeted possession after possession in the playoffs (assuming the team’s offense is good enough to even get them there).

A Young/Sabonis pairing seems like a sure fire way to lock yourself into a 1st round exit team (at best). Young is a no for me.

This ^.

The pairing with Sabonis is horrible. It does continue the Kings current practice of assembling a roster as if they are building a fantasy team. Which given the revelation of Vivek’s involvement, makes tons of sense.

 

[sactowndog]

But let's be more honest and understand this isn't a realistic choice for this discussion too, right?

I don’t know. Hoping for an act of God is about as realistic as many of these trades.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

What if Miami attached a 1st round pick (probably protected) in the trade?

DDR to Miami for Jacquez, Rozier and a protected 1st round pick.

That starts to be a deal I consider. Miami has the #20 pick this year, I'd probably try to get that and then another protected pick or a clear second that has value. Of course, they've sold every single second they have, and they don't appear to be able to trade a future pick until 2030, so I might want some gentle protections.

You know, I might be willing to settle for just #20 this year, but I'd have to make sure there's not a better market for DDR than that.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

LOL...People all of a sudden wanting to trade one of the best, if not the best, young defenders we've ever had is like...
next level WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILD...
Not quite as wild as all of the Zion talk, though...

When the return is Giannis, you thank Keegan for his service and buy him a really nice housewarming gift in Milwaukee.

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

When the return is Giannis, you thank Keegan for his service and buy him a really nice housewarming gift in Milwaukee.

I was talking about Devin, not Keegan. I agree with you when it comes to Keegan.
The post/trade proposal sactowndog was referencing in the post I responded to included Devin.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Jacquez appears to be on the outs in Miami. Declining production with no outside shot meant that he didn't even get playing time in the playoffs. Also, hooking up with your coach's ex-wife may not have been prudent. He can be got without giving up a valuable piece like DDR. Definitely no need to pick up a poison contract like Scary Terry either.

Ive seen that rumor but it doesn’t appear to be any validity to it.

It’s hard to gauge the value of Deebo. On one hand he is one of the best iso scorers in the game. On the other, he is not plug and play on most rosters. I personally would be happy with Jaquez, an expiring and maybe a second or two in return for him. Who knows, maybe he will be worth more

 

[sactowndog]

I was talking about Devin, not Keegan. I agree with you when it comes to Keegan.
The post/trade proposal sactowndog was referencing in the post I responded to included Devin.

Yeah and we were talking Trae Young not Giannis.

 

[joemama]

To get rid of Zach

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Giannis ain’t coming here and we don’t have enough assets to even get a meeting with Milwaukee

 

[TheMobb]

Giannis ain’t coming here and we don’t have enough assets to even get a meeting with Milwaukee

Most likely right but you have to at least see if it’s possible. Keegan, Monk and 5 1sts? We probably can’t compete with some of the higher end prospects that will be offered.

 

[Srzly]

I was talking about Devin, not Keegan. I agree with you when it comes to Keegan.
The post/trade proposal sactowndog was referencing in the post I responded to included Devin.

I think part of the confusion is because it seems odd to be talking about Carter as possibly the best young defender the kings have ever had when he not even the best young defender on the current roster.

I’d say he is the 3rd best young defender on the current roster, possibly even 4th behind Jake. He hasn’t really shown anything that would put him above Keegan or Keon.

Good defender and I want to keep him as well, but he has a ways to go before he is at Keon and Keegan’s level.

 

[Spike]

Giannis ain’t coming here and we don’t have enough assets to even get a meeting with Milwaukee

If we're basing it off what LA gave up for Luka, I'd say we're in the conversation.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

If we're basing it off what LA gave up for Luka, I'd say we're in the conversation.

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

Giannis ain’t coming here and we don’t have enough assets to even get a meeting with Milwaukee

You might want to run that past Nico Harrison and get his thoughts about it...Just sayin'...IYKYK...

 

[Joshyjosh31]

You might want to run that past Nico Harrison and get his thoughts about it...Just sayin'...IYKYK...

NBA isn’t gonna force Milwaukee to hand us Giannis we can’t even get foul calls haha

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

Trae? Playoff proven? That's a stretch if I've ever heard one. He's had exactly two regular season finishes above .500 in his career, made the playoffs three times, flamed out twice in the first round, and made it to the second round once. All in the lesser conference. Miss me with pining after All-Star talent who can't scrape above the play-in line in the effing East.

Yes Playoff proven. He averages 26/9 in the Playoffs and has had some clutch monents, he doesn’t fade in the Playoffs like how some modern stars (Sabonis being an example, until he proves otherwise).

Also, how many times over the years have we argued guys like Cousins and Fox should not have poor team-building held against them? Trae carries his team to the Playoffs regularly. Even if it’s a weaker conference, that’s not an easy feat. Context matters, he hasn’t had any serious help to make the Hawks a legitimate contender. And the one year they had a deep squad to compensate for lack of starpower they made a nice run. .

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

It’s a little disingenuous to simply say both Young and LaVine are bad on defense.

There are certainly different levels of “bad on defense” and by essentially every advanced impact stat, Young is consistently one of the worst defenders in the league year after year. In short, Young’s “bad” is way worse than LaVine’s “bad.”

Then on top of that, you combine one of the worst defenders in the league with Sabonis’ defense/rim protection and you have the makings of an atrocious defense that would be absolutely picked apart and targeted possession after possession in the playoffs (assuming the team’s offense is good enough to even get them there).

A Young/Sabonis pairing seems like a sure fire way to lock yourself into a 1st round exit team (at best). Young is a no for me.

But this is the point to me - we can actually hope for a Playoff appearance. With LaVine, there’s not shot imo. (Just want to restate, I muuuch prefer a full rebuild - just operating on the assumption we won’t see one under Vivek).

We can also choose to flip Sabonis for a player of a similar level (JJJ?) to pair with Trae, as well. But getting Trae in over LaVine would be a starting point towards a more optimistic future/ceiling imo.

Again, pursuing a win now philosophy would not be my preferred choice lol. I’d much rather see us trade all the vets, keep Keegan/Keon/Carter and chase the Dybantsa/Peterson 2026 sweepstakes. But if Vivek is gonna make us win now, I want to see some real stars in here.

 

[twslam07]

But this is the point to me - we can actually hope for a Playoff appearance. With LaVine, there’s not shot imo. (Just want to restate, I muuuch prefer a full rebuild - just operating on the assumption we won’t see one under Vivek).

We can also choose to flip Sabonis for a player of a similar level (JJJ?) to pair with Trae, as well. But getting Trae in over LaVine would be a starting point towards a more optimistic future/ceiling imo.

Again, pursuing a win now philosophy would not be my preferred choice lol. I’d much rather see us trade all the vets, keep Keegan/Keon/Carter and chase the Dybantsa/Peterson 2026 sweepstakes. But if Vivek is gonna make us win now, I want to see some real stars in here.

Why do you think there there is “no shot” to make the playoffs if LaVine is on the roster? LaVine has technically made the playoffs before as a 6th seed (with DeRozan also on that team). I’m struggling to see how you have arrived at that conclusion.

 

[twslam07]

Yes Playoff proven. He averages 26/9 in the Playoffs and has had some clutch monents, he doesn’t fade in the Playoffs like how some modern stars (Sabonis being an example, until he proves otherwise).

Also, how many times over the years have we argued guys like Cousins and Fox should not have poor team-building held against them? Trae carries his team to the Playoffs regularly. Even if it’s a weaker conference, that’s not an easy feat. Context matters, he hasn’t had any serious help to make the Hawks a legitimate contender. And the one year they had a deep squad to compensate for lack of starpower they made a nice run. .

I think you’re overrating his playoff pedigree.

Young was in the playoffs for the 2020-21, 2021-22, and 2022-23 seasons. Let’s compare his playoff per 36 min stats to his regular season stats for that year…

Regular Season
.589 TS%
27.9 PTS
10.2 AST
4.3 TO

Playoffs
.533 TS%
25.2 PTS
8.6 AST
4.2 TO

So his efficiency and assists decrease significantly in the playoffs, but the more interesting thing is his On/Off stats in the playoffs compared to the regular season for those 3 seasons…

Regular Season
Off On/Off = +7.7
Def On/Off = +4.1
Tot On/Off = +3.7

Playoffs
Off On/Off = -0.1
Def On/Off = +2.7
Tot On/Off = -2.8

So during the regular season, his team is actually better with him on the floor (although they are much worse defensively but at least his offense makes up for it). However, his team has actually been better with him off the floor in the playoffs.

Again, I don’t think he’s the playoffs performer you think he is. What I remember is a guy who is easily exploitable in the playoffs and the numbers appear to back that up.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I think you’re overrating his playoff pedigree.

Young was in the playoffs for the 2020-21, 2021-22, and 2022-23 seasons. Let’s compare his playoff per 36 min stats to his regular season stats for that year…

Regular Season
.589 TS%
27.9 PTS
10.2 AST
4.3 TO

Playoffs
.533 TS%
25.2 PTS
8.6 AST
4.2 TO

So his efficiency and assists decrease significantly in the playoffs, but the more interesting thing is his On/Off stats in the playoffs compared to the regular season for those 3 seasons…

Regular Season
Off On/Off = +7.7
Def On/Off = +4.1
Tot On/Off = +3.7

Playoffs
Off On/Off = -0.1
Def On/Off = +2.7
Tot On/Off = -2.8

So during the regular season, his team is actually better with him on the floor (although they are much worse defensively but at least his offense makes up for it). However, his team has actually been better with him off the floor in the playoffs.

Again, I don’t think he’s the playoffs performer you think he is. What I remember is a guy who is easily exploitable in the playoffs and the numbers appear to back that up.

I think the original prompt of the thread is to get the Kings into the playoffs, not to win a playoff series. Nobody is expecting to be a contender.

 

[twslam07]

I think the original prompt of the thread is to get the Kings into the playoffs, not to win a playoff series. Nobody is expecting to be a contender.

Sure, and I responded how I think a combo of Young and Sabonis would be atrocious on defense. You have arguably the worst defender in the NBA at PG while your C (usually your most important defensive position) is limited defensively.

Young has had a C rotation of Capela and Okongwu for the past 5 seasons. That’s very good defense from the C spot. The previous 2 seasons when they had a much worse defensive C rotation? The Hawks had the 3rd worst defense in the league. Now that’s not all Young and the C rotation. There are other variables at play here but we need to at least be okay on defense if we want to be a full on playoff team and I have a really hard time seeing how that’s possible with that duo on the floor.

Now setting that aside for a second, the post I replied to that you referenced steered the convo to Young being a good playoff performer. Looking at what I posted above, I obviously disagree with that statement.

 

[joemama]

What do we need?
To win the lottery on Monday.

The 2nd pick

 

[twslam07]

Assuming guys like LaVine and Sabonis aren’t moved (and I think it’s pretty unlikely they are moved this offseason), I think the most important thing we could do is to trade DeRozan (breakup the LaVine/DeRozan tandem) for a bigger, longer, more athletic forward who can play defense. Second priority, would be to find a PG.

The reason the PG is secondary for me is that we do still have guys like Monk, LaVine, Sabonis, and Carter who can run the PnR and find others. I wouldn’t say it’s a strength or anything but I wouldn’t say it’s horrid. What is challenging is to trot out an undersized frontcourt of DeRozan, Murray, and Sabonis and hope that you can contain/slow down other teams on a routine basis.

Now the DeRozan trade that I’m finding to be both realistic and helpful for us is the following…

DAL GETS: DeMar DeRozan
Why for DAL? The Mavs can still start Irving, Thompson/Christie, Washington, Davis, and Lively which prioritizes their defense and length identity, but they have the added luxury of having a great shot maker off the bench to help Irving and Davis (especially as Irving rehabs to start next year).

SAC GETS: Caleb Martin, Naji Marshall, & Dwight Powell
Why for SAC? Breakup the LaVine/DeRozan tandem and bring in a big, long, athletic forward who can play defense and hit the 3 (Marshall). Martin is also a solid rotational wing and gives us some insurance in case we can’t resign LaRavia.

My secondary “0.5” move would be to see if we could flip Malik Monk for Jrue Holiday (Boston desperately needs the cap savings). Or if BOS is not interested in Monk, perhaps he can be rerouted to ORL and either KCP or Jonathan Isaac can be sent to BOS instead. That would leave us with the following roster…

PG - Holiday / Carter
SG - LaVine / Ellis / Davis
SF - Murray / Martin
PF - Marshall / Jones
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas / Powell

If we can’t pull off the Holiday trade, I’d look to sign Ben Simmons to a cheap deal to see if his fit strikes gold with our core. Theoretically, it could workout really well but a lot of things are theoretical with him. Regardless, it would be a very good low risk move which would leave us with…

PG - Ellis / Monk
SG - LaVine / Carter / Davis
SF - Murray / Martin
PF - Simmons / Marshall / Jones
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas / Powell

Both of these directions balance our roster and give us an opportunity to compete next year while at the same time do not send out any young assets/picks.

Next offseason, LaVine will only have 1 year left on his deal (making him much easier to move) and with all of our picks that we have and LaVine’s big salary, we could be in a good spot to make a big trade to upgrade the roster further and elevate our ceiling. And in general, we’ll have another year under our belt for assessing what we have in guys like Murray, Ellis, and Carter.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Why do you think there there is “no shot” to make the playoffs if LaVine is on the roster? LaVine has technically made the playoffs before as a 6th seed (with DeRozan also on that team). I’m struggling to see how you have arrived at that conclusion.

I think fans in general have gone too far towards the negative with Lavine. He’s flawed of course but 23 points a game on 51/44/87 shooting splits is incredibly good.

The most likely scenario is both Zach and Sabonis are back. If that’s the case, fill out the rest of the roster with defense and see what an offseason to build chemistry can do.

 

[iowamcnabb]

@twslam07 two different NBA podcasts have mentioned Malik Monk making sense for Houston. Maybe there is a deal to be made there if the Giannis pursuit falls through

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

NBA isn’t gonna force Milwaukee to hand us Giannis we can’t even get foul calls haha

And you have proof that the NBA forced Dallas to hand LA Luka? Show us...

 

[Tetsujin]

What do we need?
To win the lottery on Monday.

The 2nd pick

Dylan Harper would definitely solve the “We need a lead guard!” Complaints that all the guys had at their exit press conferences and fits every single “Modern NBA star primary ball handler” criteria in one go. (Also isn’t such a surefire success that it’d hurt existentially when the Kings randomly pass on him to draft Ace Bailey for some ridiculous reason)

 

[Tetsujin]

@twslam07 two different NBA podcasts have mentioned Malik Monk making sense for Houston. Maybe there is a deal to be made there if the Giannis pursuit falls through

Might even make more sense if the Rockets did do a Giannis trade regardless.
(Insert hastily slapped together trade machine pic here)

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Dylan Harper would definitely solve the “We need a lead guard!” Complaints that all the guys had at their exit press conferences and fits every single “Modern NBA star primary ball handler” criteria in one go. (Also isn’t such a surefire success that it’d hurt existentially when the Kings randomly pass on him to draft Ace Bailey for some ridiculous reason)

Bailey has size and athleticism and is a ridiculous shot creator. Harper gets downhill for sure but I'm not 100% sold on him running a team. With a need on the wing that Bailey ceiling is really, really tempting at #2. (And despite reputations, Bailey shot a better percentage from three on similar attempts when all was said and done.)