Up-tempo worked for us tonight

kupman said:
Maybe this is why I have not been too upset with the Malone firing. I am not sure that he was the best coach we have had in years. Maybe he was? I don't know. What feel confident about though is this is the most talent the Kings have had in years. This is by far and away the primary reason that we got off to the better start. Maybe the team was winning in spite of Malone? And by the way, the new FO regime is the reason why we have more talent now.

Our playoff chances took a hit because of a virus.
Click to expand...

Winning in spite of Malone is this a ****ing joke. This crap is spreading like wild fire. JT/DMC were poorl defenders hell everyone on the ****ing roster are bad defenders. Yet malone had us playing great defense. If you think that's just the players becoming good defenders cause they felt like it after 4+ years in the league than you just don't get it.
 
sdballer said:
By that argument, who coaches the team doesn't really matter. Same talent under Malone and Corbin (due to the FO) means we should have similar performance.

Right?

Also who from Westphal, natt, theus, miss and smart do you think may have been better coaches?
Click to expand...


I actually think that there is some data out there that points to this in fact. That is, there are typically 2-3 coaches in the league that are so good they can win a few extra games for you and on the other end there are 2-3 coaches that are so bad they can actually lose some games for you. However, the vast majority are in the middle and do not make too much of a difference either way.

Malone was part of the middle pack, so why blow a head casket over the firing?
 
kupman said:
Maybe this is why I have not been too upset with the Malone firing. I am not sure that he was the best coach we have had in years. Maybe he was? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Sure, I'll play along. Tell me who you thought has been a better coach, since Adelman, so I can tell you why you're wrong.
What feel [sic] confident about though is this is the most talent the Kings have had in years. This is by far and away the primary reason that we got off to the better start. Maybe the team was winning in spite of Malone?
Click to expand...
There is a nonzero chance that this is true. Occam's Razor suggests that this is unlikely, however.
 
kupman said:
I actually think that there is some data out there that points to this in fact. That is, there are typically 2-3 coaches in the league that are so good they can win a few extra games for you and on the other end there are 2-3 coaches that are so bad they can actually lose some games for you. However, the vast majority are in the middle and do not make too much of a difference either way.

Malone was part of the middle pack, so why blow a head casket over the firing?
Click to expand...

The fact that you think coaches don't matter is pretty entertaining.

Oh yea malone was part of the middle pack who cares if he's fired. How bout you're two best players one how signed an extension for 2 reasons malone/DMC but that doesn't matter to you.
 
kupman said:
I actually think that there is some data out there that points to this in fact. That is, there are typically 2-3 coaches in the league that are so good they can win a few extra games for you and on the other end there are 2-3 coaches that are so bad they can actually lose some games for you. However, the vast majority are in the middle and do not make too much of a difference either way.

Malone was part of the middle pack, so why blow a head casket over the firing?
Click to expand...

I got your back, it seems like they're ganging up on you. Lol. ;)
 
rainmaker said:
And here I was thinking JVG would be a great coach for us.

Apparently I'm wrong and his next door neighbor would be as good a hire, since you know, coaching doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

Coaching matters, obviously.

But you guys are making it sound like losing Malone is worse than the Sacramento Kings moving to seattle. A bit over-dramatic, to say the least, I would say. It's not like he's Greg Popovich or something. But we can agree to disagree.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
Coaching matters, obviously.

But you guys are making it sound like losing Malone is worse than the Sacramento Kings moving to seattle. A bit over-dramatic, to say the least, I would say. It's not like he's Greg Popovich or something.
Click to expand...
straw-man.jpg



It's like you can't help yourself.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
To reiterate what he just said,

The Kings have more talent this year than any Kings team in recent memory. Coach Malone could be the best Coach we've had since Adelman, that's fine. Is he the primary and one reason why we were kidding? Rubbish. Just gotta know what your talking about, man.
Click to expand...

Okay, you're starting to get annoying.

Malone wasn't perfect but he got through to DeMarcus and he had the team playing defense. Those two items alone cannot be stressed enough. Corbin thus far has not yet done anything in my opinion to merit much praise. And please note I said YET.

You're arguing with some of the best basketball minds around, let alone some of the most knowledgeable Kings fans you'll ever encounter anywhere. Most of them are saying the same thing - Malone wasn't perfect but his techniques were making the team better. And that's worth a lot more than you seem to be willing to give him.

Talent doesn't mean a thing unless they're willing to put egos aside, to play like a TEAM and do what needs to be done. There are a lot of "teams" right now with tons more basic talent on their roster than we have and they're going nowhere fast. Why? Coaching has to be at the top of the list.

We all want our team to succeed. I won't speak for anyone else but I'll be perfectly satisfied if they do it with Ty Corbin at the helm. I am not, however, going to anoint him a success until I see some consistency with the team. We could see more tonight. I seriously hope so.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
Coaching matters, obviously.

But you guys are making it sound like losing Malone is worse than the Sacramento Kings moving to seattle. A bit over-dramatic, to say the least, I would say. It's not like he's Greg Popovich or something. But we can agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

You do realize you're just pouring oil on the fire, right? And using exaggeration to try and either defuse or ridicule the opposing argument NEVER goes well. And believe me, I know.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
It's like you guys can't help yourselves, I swear, it's hilarious. You cannot articulate nor maintain a civilized argument if someone does not share the same opinion as you. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Mod voice: Just a warning. You're beginning to lose total sight of the original discussion as you approach the outskirts of Troll City.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
It's like you guys can't help yourselves, I swear, it's hilarious. You cannot articulate nor maintain a civilized argument if someone does not share the same opinion as you. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
If you really believe that, then your definitions of 'cannot', 'articulate' and 'maintain' are in need of some serious recalibration.
 
Yes, you are all some of the brightest minds and should be working in the Kings FO to be honest. Chill out and relax, guys. GO KINGS. lol. ;)
 
rainmaker said:
And here I was thinking JVG would be a great coach for us.

Apparently I'm wrong and his next door neighbor would be as good a hire, since you know, coaching doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

His next door neighbor would probably be part of the group of coaches who lose a few games by being so bad, unless he lives next to Phil J.

Speaking of Straw men - I don't think that PDA ever said that defense is not important or he does not care about defense.
 
kupman said:
I actually think that there is some data out there that points to this in fact. That is, there are typically 2-3 coaches in the league that are so good they can win a few extra games for you and on the other end there are 2-3 coaches that are so bad they can actually lose some games for you. However, the vast majority are in the middle and do not make too much of a difference either way.

Malone was part of the middle pack, so why blow a head casket over the firing?
Click to expand...

We must either have read the same article or think alike. I think this is true. The answer to your last question has been written over and over. It may have cost us a few wins and it may have hurt our team's reputation as a place a FA might want to go. For a temporary time, we looked stupid. This FO needs to look intelligent if we are to be a destination point for FAs.

I think we can recover if we keep playing like we did in the last game. In the end it may make no difference but it was unnecessary and appeared from a distance as silly. I received an email from my best friend of 55 years essentially saying "what the hell is this?" He's not even a great basketball fan.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
Yes, you are all some of the brightest minds and should be working in the Kings FO to be honest.
Click to expand...
:: shrugs ::

Maybe we should.

I don't know whether you're aware of this, but there's no such thing as an advanced degree in basketball operations. It's not as if these guys have to complete a special course, that makes them more qualified than the rest of us. In fact, I'd be willing to wager the price of a nice lunch that at least one out of every ten men who are now, or ever have been, an NBA general manager only got their jobs because they knew people who knew people.

It's like I've said before on this message board, there are some pretty intelligent people who post here. MD's and PhD's post here. Lawyers and engineers post here. Teachers and journalists and editors post here. The notion that nobody here is smart enough to be an NBA GM is not only axiomatically wrong, it's actually kind of stupid.

D'Alessandro even said so during his interview with Carmichael Dave: he doesn't consider himself an analytics guy. He was a lawyer before he got into the business. As much of a pompous, egotistical, self-absorbed windbag as Bricklayer is, he's exactly as qualified to run an NBA team as Pete D'Alessandro is. I'm not sure why we should be expected to just give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who just happens to have the job at the moment.
 
GQ_Gabriel said:
Coaching matters, obviously.

But you guys are making it sound like losing Malone is worse than the Sacramento Kings moving to seattle. A bit over-dramatic, to say the least, I would say. It's not like he's Greg Popovich or something. But we can agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
First, I challenge you to find a single post suggesting this is in any way worse than losing the team altogether.

Second, I challenged you to provide a list of acceptable coaches up to your standards. If your idea is to fire any coach not named Popovich, or that Pop is the only acceptable standard, I can see perfectly clear why you can't name a single plausible replacement. Sloan. JVG. McMillan. Karl. Not one of them are "like a Greg Popovich or something". Hell, you'd have ran Adelman out of town.

And another contradiction: Why isn't your GM standard a "Jerry West/Pat Riley or something"?
 
kupman said:
Maybe this is why I have not been too upset with the Malone firing. I am not sure that he was the best coach we have had in years. Maybe he was? I don't know. What feel confident about though is this is the most talent the Kings have had in years. This is by far and away the primary reason that we got off to the better start. Maybe the team was winning in spite of Malone? And by the way, the new FO regime is the reason why we have more talent now.

Our playoff chances took a hit because of a virus.
Click to expand...

I suppose if you think (as D'Alessandro definitely does) that this Kings teams is much more talented than last year or the last few years then I can understand your mindset. Personally before the season started I thought the Kings were going to be terrible again this year. I remember agreeing with Carmichael Dave that Vivek's comments made it seem as though he thought he had a much more talented team than he does and that with the brutal early schedule they'd be lucky to win 5 of the first 20 games. When the Warriors came out and dispatched the Kings easily in the first regular season game I figured I was right and that it was going to be a long season with perhaps marginally more wins than last season. That's part of why I resent the Malone firing. I saw the huge step up in effort on the defensive end and attributed a large degree of credit for that to him. That and for a team looking like they are improving to fire their coach 24 games in is essentially throwing in the towel on the season unless you're bringing in a turnaround expert along the lines (or exactly the person of) George Karl. I can't say with certainty that Malone is a better coach than Corbin. So it isn't as if I'm putting him up on a pedestal. But (1) he had his team's respect and commitment and (2) firing a coach midseason ALWAYS creates a disruption. The only justifiable reason to do it IMO is if your players have tuned your HC out.

But I digress. I didn't think the Kings were massively upgraded in terms of talent. I wasn't among them, but many thought/think Collison was a major downgrade from IT. IIRC you thought IT was worth $8-$9 million/year as a starting PG. The Carl Landry signing met with mostly negativity. Ben McLemore was being called a bust by a lot of Kings fans and even his supporters (I was a lukewarm one) thought he was far from being a solid contributor. The majority of Kings fans seemed to want JT traded this last offseason. Stauskas wasn't universally hailed as a great pick. Omri Casspi's signing was largely rated as "Meh" by a poll on this very board. Did anyone think Derrick Williams would still even be a King at this point? I didn't. I thought his expiring contract was trade fodder. Reggie Evans? A nice rebounder and little else. Ryan Hollins? End of the bencher. Ray McCallum? Showed some potential but didn't have any traits that made you think he was going to be a difference maker. Most were sad to see Quincy Acy go. Moreland? Promising but far from being ready to contribute. Cousins is a monster and Rudy Gay is probably the fifth best SF in the league but beyond that? I didn't think (still don't) that this Kings team is a leap forward talent wise. I think that beyond Boogie they are generally less talented than the majority of teams they face. Which is why I loved that they were grinding out wins with tough defense and aggressively attacking the basket.

For my money the 2010-2011 Kings team actually had more talent than this squad, though obviously short on experience with a rookie DMC and a second year Tyreke. That team won 24 games.
 
kupman said:
Speaking of Straw men - I don't think that PDA ever said that defense is not important or he does not care about defense.
Click to expand...
You appear unfamiliar with what a strawman argument is. I also never claimed PDA said he doesn't care about defense.

However, actions speak louder than words. Giving up 111+ PPG leading into our last game since the firing, directing Corbin to bench our top defensive big not named Cuz and go small at the 4, cutting Ben's mins, our top backcourt defender to develop Nik more, pushing a faster pace which destabilizes our defense which media locally and nationally immediately picked up on, all speak to defense not being a real priority. As does firing a coach who employed one of the top defenses in the NBA for offensive reasons.
 
Another thing that angers me about stupid ass Vivek saying he didn't want us to be 9-10 seed is the pick. Not only would being a 9-10 seed been great but we would finally give up the pick and be able to make trades next year. Look at how many good players got traded for a future #1 that we could have used. Wright/green/rondo now we have to wait even long to be able to trade the pick.
 
There are very few people who would not have been ecstatic with the Kings earning the 10 seed. If wheeling and dealing is PDA's forte, he shouldn't care either.
I remain amazed by the FO's desire to be so much like Golden State that they failed to think of a plan B when Malone actually fielded a competitive team.
 
Spike said:
There are very few people who would not have been ecstatic with the Kings earning the 10 seed. If wheeling and dealing is PDA's forte, he shouldn't care either.
I remain amazed by the FO's desire to be so much like Golden State that they failed to think of a plan B when Malone actually fielded a competitive team.
Click to expand...
Ha. That brings up an interesting point. Both Vivek and PDA appear think this is a playoff caliber roster, one which should also have done better when Cuz was out. Yet when that same playoff level talent started both 5-1 and 9-5, on a pace to actually make the playoffs, they appeared to be completely caught off guard and unprepared, as if they never considered the possibility that talent they assembled might actually have some success.

Every new wrinkle makes my head hurt just that much more.
 
rainmaker said:
Ha. That brings up an interesting point. Both Vivek and PDA appear think this is a playoff caliber roster, one which should also have done better when Cuz was out. Yet when that same playoff level talent started both 5-1 and 9-5, on a pace to actually make the playoffs, they appeared to be completely caught off guard and unprepared, as if they never considered the possibility that talent they assembled might actually have some success.

Every new wrinkle makes my head hurt just that much more.
Click to expand...

I love a good conspiracy. Indulge me for a moment:

What if they (the FO) assumed the assembled roster wouldn't work, considering they were hoping Malone would play it the way they wanted (run and gun). "Let's give him a roster ill-suited to do what we want, and tell him to do it this way. Tee hee! We'll get our high draft pick, and move some pieces next year to really give us a nice team before the arena opens! It's a genius plan!" Considering neither of them have a serious NBA background, having neither coached nor played, I'm sure they thought this would work.

Malone then looks at the roster, and says, "bullcrap. Were' going to play this way. This roster is totally suited for it." The FO was probably not only surprised to see it working, but also a little miffed that he didn't listen to their ideas, thereby showing that his intelligence for coaching a team was better than theirs for assembling one. They couldn't bring it within themselves to swallow their pride and say, "OK, well, if our coach can clearly win with this roster, lets change gears and get him better players."

What other explanation can we give for not only moving better defensive players, but not willing to use them, even when included in a trade?

It's like when you watch an episode of Chopped, and you're asked to make a meal from Brazilian legumes, offal, and jelly beans. Malone was in the midst of pulling off a delicious chili, and they were shocked.

Is any of this true? Hell, I don't know. Probably none of it is. However, truth is stranger than fiction.
 
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