Tyrese Haliburton named to US Select Team

most water polo athletes have similar skills and athletic profiles to basketball players. Length matters, good hands matters, IQ matters a lot as you have to make quick decisions and your time window can be impacted by the water. Shooting matters. The players are typically shooting the ball with accuracy at 50-55 MPH.

btw if you see a water polo goalie drop his head as the ball approaches and wonder why are they taking their eyes off the ball.... it’s to keep their nose from being broken. Especially since the 5 hole in water polo is just over the goalies head. Lol

1625426757250.png
 
this may be pure speculation on my part but I think one factor to consider here is that those Baltic countries have close access to the sea and they are constantly swimming in them for long period of times and a lot of them genetically are gifted with height which is ideal in a sport like this

I guess after looking it up we, as in the US, are top 3 in medals, lots of silvers and bronzes. Hungary, a landlocked country, seems to have the most though. But, I like to go down rabbitholes to understand things. It seems Hungary is located on the Carpathian Basin, an area of land where the Earth's crust is at its thinnest. This has lead to a lot of hot springs, and a huge spa culture for hundreds of years. Additionally, they have two major rivers that flow through their country.

This is a long way of saying that what you say seems to check out.
 
Last edited:
Thank heavens for Tyrese Haliburton! Every story that comes out about him is like a little ray of sunshine. If you think it's dark around here now, imagine if we hadn't drafted Haliburton. Actually, don't do that. Just take a moment to appreciate that things can't be that bad when we have two elite guards in a guard-driven league. The rest will (hopefully) fall into place.
 
Thank heavens for Tyrese Haliburton! Every story that comes out about him is like a little ray of sunshine. If you think it's dark around here now, imagine if we hadn't drafted Haliburton. Actually, don't do that. Just take a moment to appreciate that things can't be that bad when we have two elite guards in a guard-driven league. The rest will (hopefully) fall into place.

I agree with your points about Haliburton. He is a breath of fresh air. I will say it’s a wing driven league at the moment however and we are awfully short on those.
 
I agree with your points about Haliburton. He is a breath of fresh air. I will say it’s a wing driven league at the moment however and we are awfully short on those.

People here keep saying that but I think that's just a Kings fan bias. Here's the top 50 scorers from last season sorted by their starting positions. Obviously there's some crossover with the bigger guards also being considered wings and this doesn't include players who missed too many games to qualify on the official leader board (Lebron, Harden, Durant among them). You could also argue that there's better ways to rank them than just looking at scoring but all that being said, the depth of the guard group is still better than the bigs or wings right now especially if you weight them based on proximity to the top of the leader board where half the players in the top 10 were guards. There are a few high-profile bigs and wings whose names jump out at you and adding Lebron and Durant back onto the list and calling Giannis an over-sized wing makes it look more even but at worst I think it's 50/50 on guards and wings right now with the big guys a distant third. Accounting for age and star quality though, it's easily the guards who are poised to dominate the next decade unless there's a huge influx of All-Star level wings and bigs in the next few drafts.


GUARDS: (23)

Stephen Curry (MVPx2), Bradley Beal, Damian Lillard, Zach LaVine, Kyrie Irving , Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Trae Young, De'Aaron Fox, Jaylen Brown , Collin Sexton , Russell Westbrook (MVP) , Malcolm Brogdon , Terry Rozier, Fred VanVleet, Anthony Edwards, Ja Morant, Jordan Clarkson, Jrue Holiday, Darius Garland, Tim Hardaway Jr., Buddy Hield, Chris Paul


BIGS: (11)

Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo (MVPx2), Zion Williamson, Nikola Jokic (MVP), Julius Randle, Nikola Vucevic, Pascal Siakam, Domantas Sabonis , Bam Adebayo , John Collins , Jonas Valanciunas


WINGS: (16)

Luka Doncic , Jayson Tatum , Kawhi Leonard , Brandon Ingram, Paul George, Jerami Grant, DeMar DeRozan, Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Tobias Harris, Michael Porter Jr., Norman Powell, Andrew Wiggins, RJ Barrett, Dillon Brooks, Bojan Bogdanovic
 
Last edited:
People here keep saying that but I think that's just a Kings fan bias. Here's the top 50 scorers from last season sorted by their starting positions. Obviously there's some crossover with the bigger guards also being considered wings and this doesn't include players who missed too many games to qualify on the official leader board (Lebron, Harden, Durant among them). You could also argue that there's better ways to rank them than just looking at scoring but all that being said, the depth of the guard group is still better than the bigs or wings right now especially if you weight them based on proximity to the top of the leader board where half the players in the top 10 were guards.

There are a few high-profile bigs and wings whose names jump out at you and adding Lebron and Durant back onto the list and calling Giannis an over-sized wing makes it look more even but at worst I think it's 50/50 on guards and wings right now with the big guys a distant third. Accounting for age and star quality though, it's easily the guards who are poised to dominate the next decade unless there's a huge influx of All-Star level wings and bigs in the next few drafts.


GUARDS: (23)

Stephen Curry (MVPx2), Bradley Beal, Damian Lillard, Zach LaVine, Kyrie Irving , Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Trae Young, De'Aaron Fox, Jaylen Brown , Collin Sexton , Russell Westbrook (MVP) , Malcolm Brogdon , Terry Rozier, Fred VanVleet, Anthony Edwards, Ja Morant, Jordan Clarkson, Jrue Holiday, Darius Garland, Tim Hardaway Jr., Buddy Hield, Chris Paul


BIGS: (11)

Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo (MVPx2), Zion Williamson, Nikola Jokic (MVP), Julius Randle, Nikola Vucevic, Pascal Siakam, Domantas Sabonis , Bam Adebayo , John Collins , Jonas Valanciunas


WINGS: (16)

Luka Doncic , Jayson Tatum , Kawhi Leonard , Brandon Ingram, Paul George, Jerami Grant, DeMar DeRozan, Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Tobias Harris, Michael Porter Jr., Norman Powell, Andrew Wiggins, RJ Barrett, Dillon Brooks, Bojan Bogdanovic

I agree your list seems a bit arbitrary. Beal, Jaylen Brown and Lavine are both bigger wings 6’6” or greater and not primary ball handlers. Nor would I call Zion, Randle or Collins a big as they are not primarily post protectors. Capella is the big on Atlanta not Collins. Adam’s is the big on New Orleans and Noel is the big on New York.

but I think the point is you don’t have a top team without a top wing or two. I would argue you don’t have a 2nd round play-off team without one top wing and their presence is rare. Their prevalence increases if you adjust the list by moving guards 6’ 6” or greater over is 1 less despite being a significantly smaller percent of the population. If I move a couple of your “bigs” over the list becomes more tilted to wings.
 
I agree your list seems a bit arbitrary. Beal, Jaylen Brown and Lavine are both bigger wings 6’6” or greater and not primary ball handlers. Nor would I call Zion, Randle or Collins a big as they are not primarily post protectors. Capella is the big on Atlanta not Collins. Adam’s is the big on New Orleans and Noel is the big on New York.

but I think the point is you don’t have a top team without a top wing or two. I would argue you don’t have a 2nd round play-off team without one top wing and their presence is rare. Their prevalence increases if you adjust the list by moving guards 6’ 6” or greater over is 1 less despite being a significantly smaller percent of the population. If I move a couple of your “bigs” over the list becomes more tilted to wings.

Sure if you want to say that three players who start at the SG position for their teams are not guards and three guys who play PF for their teams are really just "big wings" because they aren't completely lacking in ball skills than I guess that skews things but if anyone between 6'4 and 6'10 is a wing player than it almost seems perfunctory to say that the league is "dominated" by wings doesn't it? By that definition Tyrese Haliburton is also a wing. Also I've lost track of what we're even talking about. I was just trying to pay Ty a compliment not start a semantics war.
 
Sure if you want to say that three players who start at the SG position for their teams are not guards and three guys who play PF for their teams are really just "big wings" because they aren't completely lacking in ball skills than I guess that skews things but if anyone between 6'4 and 6'10 is a wing player than it almost seems perfunctory to say that the league is "dominated" by wings doesn't it? By that definition Tyrese Haliburton is also a wing. Also I've lost track of what we're even talking about. I was just trying to pay Ty a compliment not start a semantics war.
If 6’4 is the cut off point then there’s a chance De’Aaron Fox, who was 6’3 coming into the league, is a wing now.
 
Sure if you want to say that three players who start at the SG position for their teams are not guards and three guys who play PF for their teams are really just "big wings" because they aren't completely lacking in ball skills than I guess that skews things but if anyone between 6'4 and 6'10 is a wing player than it almost seems perfunctory to say that the league is "dominated" by wings doesn't it? By that definition Tyrese Haliburton is also a wing. Also I've lost track of what we're even talking about. I was just trying to pay Ty a compliment not start a semantics war.

most teams classify players as ball handlers, wings and bigs. The wings with the most value can slide between 3 and 4 like Harris or between 2 and 3 like Brown. To be fair to your point, I cut the list off at 6’6” not 6’ 4”. Wings allow you to vary match ups and have the size, length and lateral quickness to switch on the perimeter. That fact is why they are so rare and valuable.
 
If 6’4 is the cut off point then there’s a chance De’Aaron Fox, who was 6’3 coming into the league, is a wing now.

Technically you should probably use Wingspan and lateral quickness (By the way I don’t think Luka is a wing). But I used 6’ 6” as my cut off.
 
most teams classify players as ball handlers, wings and bigs. The wings with the most value can slide between 3 and 4 like Harris or between 2 and 3 like Brown. To be fair to your point, I cut the list off at 6’6” not 6’ 4”. Wings allow you to vary match ups and have the size, length and lateral quickness to switch on the perimeter. That fact is why they are so rare and valuable.

Technically you should probably use Wingspan and lateral quickness (By the way I don’t think Luka is a wing). But I used 6’ 6” as my cut off.

Bradley Beal is not 6'6", he's listed at 6'3" everywhere for some reason which was his height barefoot at the combine so unless he shrunk, 6'4" seems accurate. I see what you're getting at and I do think think the roles have shifted recently but lumping all 2s, 3s, and 4s together as one position seems a bit much to me. The category becomes so broad at that point that it's not very useful for describing what the player is doing on the court. I guess this is what's meant by "position-less basketball" and it's not uncommon now for a 2 guard to play a lot of minutes at the 3 position or a SF to shift down to the 5 position so that you have more guards and wings on the floor but I personally don't think that means they're no longer a guard just because they're defending the other team's SF. The categories do not need to be mutually exclusive. Buddy Hield is still a guard even if Luke Walton wants to play him at PF.

When comparing the NBA now to 15 years ago I think the biggest significant changes are that your starting PG with a few exceptions was typically not your leading scorer and your PF typically did not shoot threes or face up to the basket and drive from outside the 3pt line. So those distinctions matter less now. It used to be you had a 1 (PG) who brought the ball up, directed traffic, and started your offensive sets and then you had two wings which were your 2 and 3 (SG/SF) who would either catch and shoot or create a shot from the perimeter or midrange, then you had a 4 (PF) who ideally could operate out of the high post and was a scorer and screen setter, and then you had a 5 (C) who was either a defensive anchor or a post scorer and would rarely venture much outside the paint except when changing sides. In the big man era of the 90s and early 2000s we even blended the PF/C positions together because the prevailing wisdom at the time was that you needed two bigs on the floor and one of them was probably going to be your leading scorer because you wanted to take advantage of those high-percentage shots near the basket. I can't speak to the NBA before the early 90s as that's when I started watching.

The way I see teams working now is that you have two guards who are more or less interchangeable. One of them is a primary scorer and the other is probably a little more of a complimentary role-player who takes tough defensive assignments or spots up outside the 3pt line. The shorter guard is often labeled the PG but a lot of them don't initiate the offense. In fact, guys like Pat Beverly and Seth Curry are hardly ever handling the ball and guys like Kyrie Irving and Donovan Mitchell are more likely to lead their team in shot attempts than assists so the PG/SG distinction is pretty arbitrary now. Additionally, most teams are tasking taller wing players with playing PF so that they have their best shooters on the floor. A typical SF and a typical PF used to be very different players and that was a matter of play style not of size. But with everything moved to the perimeter, the 3/4 positions are really interchangeable so we just call them forwards now. On the NBA All-Star ballot they've eliminated the C position all together and just lumped the big men in with the forwards but it does seem like most teams still have one player whose role is to grab rebounds, discourage layups, and fulfill most of the roles of a typical big man. Some teams are playing two traditional bigs still but usually that's because they have one of the modern PFs who has all the skills of a SF but relies more on strength than foot speed for their physical advantage.

So when I'm projecting team rosters now I use G/G/F/F/C rather than the old 1/2/3/4/5 distinctions and I don't care if that means I have two PGs or two SGs as long as they can handle well enough to run a pick and roll. If you have a point forward type like a Ben Simmons, Luka, or Giannis maybe you don't need any guards but you still need to think about defending the other team and it's pretty rare for a taller wing player to have the footspeed to stay in front of someone like De'Aaron Fox. It sounds like you've just eliminated the guard label entirely and folded everyone who isn't a primary initiator into the wing position which, I mean, fair enough. But then why did you go out of your way to tell me I'm wrong to call it a guard-driven league when I was referring to the scoring being tilted heavily toward guards and you seem to agree with that you just call them either ballhandlers or wings depending on their role in the offense.

I guess what you're really talking about is defense and I don't want to rehash everything I already wrote here but the impression I get from your comments is that you agree with most NBA coaching staffs that the way you solve the Steph Curry/Trae Young problem is to load up on bouncy 6'6" dudes with long arms and have them blanket the court with their wingspans. I contend that if that strategy were actually working these ballhandler dudes wouldn't be averaging 30 points a game. There's cause and effect here and it's tough to tell whom is wagging whom but my theory at least is that loading up on versatile switchable wing players because of their, pardon the pun, wingspan is the problem and it would be a lot more difficult for fancy dribblers to get wherever they wanted on the court if you just stuck one really agile 6' dude on them and had them get into their grill all game and use everyone else to cut off the passing angles.
 
Bradley Beal is not 6'6", he's listed at 6'3" everywhere for some reason which was his height barefoot at the combine so unless he shrunk, 6'4" seems accurate. I see what you're getting at and I do think think the roles have shifted recently but lumping all 2s, 3s, and 4s together as one position seems a bit much to me. The category becomes so broad at that point that it's not very useful for describing what the player is doing on the court. I guess this is what's meant by "position-less basketball" and it's not uncommon now for a 2 guard to play a lot of minutes at the 3 position or a SF to shift down to the 5 position so that you have more guards and wings on the floor but I personally don't think that means they're no longer a guard just because they're defending the other team's SF. The categories do not need to be mutually exclusive. Buddy Hield is still a guard even if Luke Walton wants to play him at PF.

When comparing the NBA now to 15 years ago I think the biggest significant changes are that your starting PG with a few exceptions was typically not your leading scorer and your PF typically did not shoot threes or face up to the basket and drive from outside the 3pt line. So those distinctions matter less now. It used to be you had a 1 (PG) who brought the ball up, directed traffic, and started your offensive sets and then you had two wings which were your 2 and 3 (SG/SF) who would either catch and shoot or create a shot from the perimeter or midrange, then you had a 4 (PF) who ideally could operate out of the high post and was a scorer and screen setter, and then you had a 5 (C) who was either a defensive anchor or a post scorer and would rarely venture much outside the paint except when changing sides. In the big man era of the 90s and early 2000s we even blended the PF/C positions together because the prevailing wisdom at the time was that you needed two bigs on the floor and one of them was probably going to be your leading scorer because you wanted to take advantage of those high-percentage shots near the basket. I can't speak to the NBA before the early 90s as that's when I started watching.

The way I see teams working now is that you have two guards who are more or less interchangeable. One of them is a primary scorer and the other is probably a little more of a complimentary role-player who takes tough defensive assignments or spots up outside the 3pt line. The shorter guard is often labeled the PG but a lot of them don't initiate the offense. In fact, guys like Pat Beverly and Seth Curry are hardly ever handling the ball and guys like Kyrie Irving and Donovan Mitchell are more likely to lead their team in shot attempts than assists so the PG/SG distinction is pretty arbitrary now. Additionally, most teams are tasking taller wing players with playing PF so that they have their best shooters on the floor. A typical SF and a typical PF used to be very different players and that was a matter of play style not of size. But with everything moved to the perimeter, the 3/4 positions are really interchangeable so we just call them forwards now. On the NBA All-Star ballot they've eliminated the C position all together and just lumped the big men in with the forwards but it does seem like most teams still have one player whose role is to grab rebounds, discourage layups, and fulfill most of the roles of a typical big man. Some teams are playing two traditional bigs still but usually that's because they have one of the modern PFs who has all the skills of a SF but relies more on strength than foot speed for their physical advantage.

So when I'm projecting team rosters now I use G/G/F/F/C rather than the old 1/2/3/4/5 distinctions and I don't care if that means I have two PGs or two SGs as long as they can handle well enough to run a pick and roll. If you have a point forward type like a Ben Simmons, Luka, or Giannis maybe you don't need any guards but you still need to think about defending the other team and it's pretty rare for a taller wing player to have the footspeed to stay in front of someone like De'Aaron Fox. It sounds like you've just eliminated the guard label entirely and folded everyone who isn't a primary initiator into the wing position which, I mean, fair enough. But then why did you go out of your way to tell me I'm wrong to call it a guard-driven league when I was referring to the scoring being tilted heavily toward guards and you seem to agree with that you just call them either ballhandlers or wings depending on their role in the offense.

I guess what you're really talking about is defense and I don't want to rehash everything I already wrote here but the impression I get from your comments is that you agree with most NBA coaching staffs that the way you solve the Steph Curry/Trae Young problem is to load up on bouncy 6'6" dudes with long arms and have them blanket the court with their wingspans. I contend that if that strategy were actually working these ballhandler dudes wouldn't be averaging 30 points a game. There's cause and effect here and it's tough to tell whom is wagging whom but my theory at least is that loading up on versatile switchable wing players because of their, pardon the pun, wingspan is the problem and it would be a lot more difficult for fancy dribblers to get wherever they wanted on the court if you just stuck one really agile 6' dude on them and had them get into their grill all game and use everyone else to cut off the passing angles.

Lots here... first I double checked everyone but Beal. For some reason I thought he was taller than 6’6” but clearly I was wrong and he isn’t switchable. So yes remove Beal from the list as he doesn’t meet the criteria.

In the vernacular of today many are using a BH/W/W/W/Big model.

Now yes one of the other wings may be a toolsy secondary ball handler which allows your primary BH to play off the ball but wings largely are skilled players with the length and lateral quickness to play multiple spots. From a coaching standpoint, this allows the team to attack and defend match-ups.

the Kings have guards but they don’t have many players who have the length/size to effectively switch between a 3/4 or even a 2/3. Hield with a 6’ 9” wingspan is probably the closest but he is a poor defender mentally. It’s one reason their defense is so poor.
 
9BEFE107-B51C-407F-8DD2-A5A7F836028C.png
I’m a big believe in strength, lateral quickness, mentality and standing reach when it comes to assessing defensive potential. This chart shows average combine measurements by position: barefoot height, with shoes, wingspan and standing reach. The difference between the 2 and 4 spots are significant.
 
Back
Top