Believe it or not the guy put Shaq in fits before he came to the Kings, Shaq even threw a punch and was suspended as a result of Miller's physical play.Kings241 said:
Honestly!
No, really! Its true!
The problem with Shareef
- Thread starter DaMan
- Start date
Honestly!
No, really! Its true!
pdxKingsFan said:
Set up your own trade scenario then. Plenty of great deals you can make with Reef+someone. I still like Pierce. LaFrentz is a good fit for the system. I'm not saying he's any good. I'm saying he's better than our bench crap. I don't know about Davis' personality but I like his play.
nbrans
All-Star
playmaker0017 said:
I think the over-rotating has to do with the fact that Bibby is terrible at getting through screens, and so the other players have to make stopping penetration their first priority at the expense of showing too hard or completely leaving their man. I'd say stopping penetration has to be the first priority, even if it means players like Rasheed Wallace and PJ Brown can occasionally get the best of SAR because they take advantage of his help defense by shooting oustide jump shots.
Also, my point is that Shareef is good on pick and roll help defense, I'd agree with those who say he's not very good at other defensive rotations, such as helping out weakside penetration and any and all shotblocking. Unless it's a pick and roll he really doesn't leave his man, and that certainly doesn't bode well for an above-average defensive team.
Overall though, I think people really sell Shareef short on his defense. He has his weaknesses, but so does every player, and overall I think he's been one of the few bright spots.
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playmaker0017
Guest
BMiller52 said:
A lot of people are getting caught up in numbers without correlating those numbers to something meaningful.
Right now Reef isn't GETTING rebounds. If you watch the game, he's in position to get rebounds ... and lots of them. He's allowing his teammates to come in and get the loose balls.
I know this isn't popular with Bricklayer and statisticians, because it isn't something tangible.
But, fundamental basketball it is. The job of a player, including PFs, is NOT to get rebounds. It's to stop the opposition from getting rebounds and getting yourself or your teammates in position to get rebounds.
Reef is keeping his man off the boards. That's his job.
Now, I'm not making an excuse for him. I think it stinks. I am a Reef fan ... I want him to be the 20 & 9-10 player I think he can be.
What he's doing is keeping people off the ball rather than grabbing the board. Why this is I haven't a clue ... but I promise I'm going to give him grief when they come through Houston.
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playmaker0017
Guest
nbrans said:
I completely agree.
Reef has been a decent defender for years... but on teams where the PGs consist of matadors like Stoudamire, Bibby and Jason Terry ... interior players tend to get eaten alive and look exposed.
nbrans
All-Star
playmaker0017 said:
I definitely agree with this. I'll make the usual caveat that there are balls that SAR needs to pull down, but a lot of Bonzi's defensive rebounds come from loose balls that are loose because SAR is boxing out his guy. SAR doesn't get the credit, but if Bonzi weren't there SAR would pull a lot of them down.
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playmaker0017
Guest
BMiller52 said:
Brad Miller is not useless trash, but he is the exact opposite of the type of player someone should put next to Reef ... and vice versa.
He's a phenominal shooter - when open. He can't create for himself for the most part ... and that's an issue for someone who gets the ball as much as he does.
Brad Miller's assists are a bit inflated though, I have to burst your bubble on that one. He sees the floor very well, but it isn't like he's really doing much to get those 6 assists. He stands there and waits for a cutter or hands it off to Peja to bomb.
His assists aren't MAKING shots for other players. He isn't moving with the ball, breaking the defense and finding an open player due to anything he does.
He just stands there - waits for a cutter - lobs the ball.
Reef is a decent enough passer. I think he's good for 3-4 assists on the year (maybe high 4's if pushing it). But, when he was doing the "Brad Miller" thing - he was also getting 8-9 assists a game. He's not that good of a passer ...
same with Brad Miller.
I'm on record as being intrigued with the Peja for Magloire scenarios others have proposed as well as being unopposed to Peja for Artest. I don't want to see Reef go yet. I'd like to see him get time with Corliss and see what happens there, if we got a legit center and hung onto Miller I'd like to see what options that might open up. I think he makes a good complimentary player with the right pieces and if that means changing up "the system" I'm all for it.Zyphen said:
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playmaker0017
Guest
Zyphen said:
Do they?
Over 48 minutes:
Zach Randolph, who everyone says is a good rebounder, is giving up 13 rebounds a game to his 11.
Dirk Nowitzki gives up 12 to his 11.
Garnett is getting 13 to the opponents 11.7.
Reef is giving up 10 rebounds to 9.3.
NOW - while I say this - I don't condone it. Reef can and should be getting these rebounds. Watch the game and pay attention to it. Reef is in position, but he doesn't grab the board. Heck, I even see him let go of the ball if he and another teammate have the ball ... like Bibby. It's really pathetic.
My point is simply that he isn't getting out-manned on the boards like people are making it out to be. He just isn't getting numbers. But, neither is his man.
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playmaker0017
Guest
Zyphen said:
Zyphen,
Wow. That's a bold statement that flies in the face of almost every NBA analyst in the world.
I do agree to a certain extent that per48's can be - and sometimes are - very misleading.
But, when comparing starters with similar minutes logged - the numbers shine a little more.
The reason per48's are important, among players with similar minutes logged, is that it baselines everyone to the same level. In this instance, it's even more important, because the statistics of the opponents must be factored properly and given the right amount of weight in the analysis.
In this instance, per48 or not, the numbers lead to the same conclusion. Reef is stopping his man from rebounding.
So - despite your bold proclamation - just because you say something, it doesn't make it so.
PS - if statistics showed that Reef was getting dominated on a per48 basis, which seems to be your ascertation - I doubt you would be so quick to rule out their legitimacy in this case.
I apologize. I just saw per48 and it didn't register what exactly you're comparing. Upon further reflection, I believe in this case it does have merit. Then I started thinking that it's probably too good to be true so I double checked at 82games.com and found the stats you got were wrong and/or incomplete:
Zach Randolph - 11.8 to opponent's 11.1 at PF
8.5 to opponent's 17.1 at C
Kevin Garnett - 12.6 to opponent's 11.9 at PF
15.0 to opponent's 11.6 at C
Dirk Nowitzki - 11.7 to opponent's 11.7 at PF
11.8 to opponent's 14.8 at C
Shareef - 9.3 to opponent's 10.1 at PF
6.2 to opponent's 19.0 at C
So in conclusion, yes Shareef is that bad a rebounder.
Zach Randolph - 11.8 to opponent's 11.1 at PF
8.5 to opponent's 17.1 at C
Kevin Garnett - 12.6 to opponent's 11.9 at PF
15.0 to opponent's 11.6 at C
Dirk Nowitzki - 11.7 to opponent's 11.7 at PF
11.8 to opponent's 14.8 at C
Shareef - 9.3 to opponent's 10.1 at PF
6.2 to opponent's 19.0 at C
So in conclusion, yes Shareef is that bad a rebounder.
That's why I'm only intrigued and not sold. I don't think we can get Tyson Chandler and I thought Nene is an injury risk.nbrans said:
To whoever mentioned Randolph, he's drawing a lot of criticsm these days in Portland. He looked terrible in the game I went to, I queried my friends and the locals if this guy was still the future of the franchise and they all laughed.
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playmaker0017
Guest
Zyphen said:
What I did was slightly nudge in one direction or another a players numbers based on time at the C.
If you decide not to - then reef is being outrebounded by less than 1 rebound by his man compared to all three of the others combined for their 1.4 rebound margin.
Also, those are among the best rebounders in the game.
What I'd also like to point out is how low the overall effectiveness is of Reef's man. The league average PER is set to 15, but for this view the comparison between a player's production and the opponent production at the position is the focus. At a glance you can tell whether there has been a net positive or negative overall contribution while playing that position. Reef is holding his man's PER to 12.7 ... less than all the players mentioned.
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Honestly, what is people's problem? Out of all the starters, SAR is probably the most efficient guy for the money he is playing. He is only averaging 16 ppg because he is the FOURTH option. He scores more than Miller AND gets higher percentage. The system is against him, yet he does more than could be expected. What more do you want from him?
As for his defense, can you really blame him? He was never known for his blocking, but you can't really ask him for KG, Webber kind of performance. You don't hear Dallas fan complaining about Nowitzki's blocking, do you? But he still plays hard on defense. The breakdown on Kings' defense has always started with Bibby and Peja from outside, which dominioes into a disaster inside. If you play basketball, even with just your friends, you'll know the inside defense can't hold without much outside defense. Bibby lost his intensity, and Peja has never shown much effort on guarding his man. They let the man in, and at the end things look bad for inside players. I feel sorry for Miller, too, since he is at least an average man-to-man defender. Before blaming SAR and Miller, blame Bibby and Peja first.
As for the rebounding, I admit, SAR has lost his intensity over the years with the losing teams. Kings' so far losing season probably doesn't help much either. Beside, one of his greatest points is also his weakest link: he is too un-selfish. In a league full of Artests, he is a lone man, who doesn't try to hog the attention. He boxes out his man, but rather than jump for the ball, he makes sure his man stays away from it. I guess he is someone who plays it safe, too much for his own good.
People complain he is no Webber. Well, he certainly isn't being paid like one, nor being played like one! SAR is getting only a fragment of what Webber got paid, and the coach is using him as only the fourth option(even with Bibby and Peja's blunders over the months) when Webber was THE choice on the offense. I think Kings doesn't have the right to demand such performance out of him since he is being underpaid, underplayed, and underappreciated. To be honest, I want to see him be more selfish. Hog the ball once in a while. Jump the ball and get that rebound out of the guy's hand, even if he is your teammate! Post down low and scream for the ball, and don't pay heed to Adelman shouting you to stay on the top of the key. I really miss the Vancouver SAR, who played with such intensity that even Karl Malone was impressed. Curse the Hawks and Blazers, may you never get to the playoff again before SAR!
As for his defense, can you really blame him? He was never known for his blocking, but you can't really ask him for KG, Webber kind of performance. You don't hear Dallas fan complaining about Nowitzki's blocking, do you? But he still plays hard on defense. The breakdown on Kings' defense has always started with Bibby and Peja from outside, which dominioes into a disaster inside. If you play basketball, even with just your friends, you'll know the inside defense can't hold without much outside defense. Bibby lost his intensity, and Peja has never shown much effort on guarding his man. They let the man in, and at the end things look bad for inside players. I feel sorry for Miller, too, since he is at least an average man-to-man defender. Before blaming SAR and Miller, blame Bibby and Peja first.
As for the rebounding, I admit, SAR has lost his intensity over the years with the losing teams. Kings' so far losing season probably doesn't help much either. Beside, one of his greatest points is also his weakest link: he is too un-selfish. In a league full of Artests, he is a lone man, who doesn't try to hog the attention. He boxes out his man, but rather than jump for the ball, he makes sure his man stays away from it. I guess he is someone who plays it safe, too much for his own good.
People complain he is no Webber. Well, he certainly isn't being paid like one, nor being played like one! SAR is getting only a fragment of what Webber got paid, and the coach is using him as only the fourth option(even with Bibby and Peja's blunders over the months) when Webber was THE choice on the offense. I think Kings doesn't have the right to demand such performance out of him since he is being underpaid, underplayed, and underappreciated. To be honest, I want to see him be more selfish. Hog the ball once in a while. Jump the ball and get that rebound out of the guy's hand, even if he is your teammate! Post down low and scream for the ball, and don't pay heed to Adelman shouting you to stay on the top of the key. I really miss the Vancouver SAR, who played with such intensity that even Karl Malone was impressed. Curse the Hawks and Blazers, may you never get to the playoff again before SAR!
playmaker0017 said:
All those players played the same or less minutes at C. How does it make sense that their overall rebounding got worse and Reef's stayed the same (when he's obviously the worst)? Your homerism is showing.
Leave the Center stuff in. They all played about the same fraction of time there. 1 less rebound is significant, regardless, even if you want to twist things your way by ignoring stats.
Find the starting PFs that are doing worse than Reef.
nbrans
All-Star
Zyphen said:
I took the numbers on 82games.com and, using my trusty spreadsheet, factored for time spent at PF and C and came up with the following numbers. Now, I'm not great with math, so if anyone spots errors please let me know and I'll hastily delete this post in embarassment.
Shareef - 8.9 to opponents' 11.3
Randolph - 11.5 to opponents' 11.6
Garnett - 12.8 to opponents' 11.9
Nowitzki - 11.7 to opponents' 12.1
So really, there's fodder for both sides. Shareef is way low on his numbers and the differential is the worst of the group, although he does give up the fewest rebounds to his opponents of this limited group so there might be something to the box-out theory. If you're curious, give me some more names and I can plug them into the spreadsheet.
BMiller52 said:
Well, it can't be helped. As a SAR's fan, I had to watch and endure him being spiraled into mediocracy by those teams, either by the coach or the front office.
Beside, things don't look for either teams at this point. Atlanta, even with JJ, isn't getting to the playoff any time soon. In fact, JJ is right now pondering if his decision to sign with them was the right choice. As for the Blazers, their glory days were long over before Reef ever got there. They traded away a lot of good players(Jermaine being one of them), while keeping only ones who are too old or too young. They thought Zack Randolph would be their future and put him before SAR. Boy were they wrong! Very few players in the blazers at the time could outplay SAR yet they didn't play him like they should. If you don't take my words, just look at last summer. All their free agents left them. No one new signed with them except some rookies. The team was doomed long before SAR, and they say it's SAR's faults! Bah. Let's see them getting to the playoffs this season now that he is gone!
I guess y'all have nothing better to think about than how bad the 2nd best starter is on our team.....
How about figuring out how to support our team better or talk about our biggest problems:
Bench
Perimeter defense
Maybe y'all will start blaming SAR for Bonzi's injury too, right? Did he not get the rebound Bonzi was going for when he got hurt or something?
This is rediculous.
How about figuring out how to support our team better or talk about our biggest problems:
Bench
Perimeter defense
Maybe y'all will start blaming SAR for Bonzi's injury too, right? Did he not get the rebound Bonzi was going for when he got hurt or something?
This is rediculous.
BMiller52 said:
Oh please! Only reason Randolph did better than SAR was because the front office demanded him to be the first option, and play more minutes! I am not just saying that. It has been an open knowledge that the team wanted to develop Randolph into their future, and didn't want to keep SAR since they already had too much talents on PF position anyway. Blazers pulled a Clippers upon themselves and loaded themselves too much on one position, and in the process, screwed SAR.
Well, let's see if you can really put the losses on SAR's shoulders. First, his teams were Vancouver, Atlanta, and Portland. Nuff said. Second, his best teammate was Rasheed, who then had a ruffle with the team and left. Who else were there? A bunch of no-names. I don't know if he carries a curse, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
T
thesanityannex
Guest
Dude, take off the Brad Miller blinders. We all know he's your favorite player, hence the screen name. Stop comparing him to SAR. They play two different postions in case you didn't know. No one said he's trash, he's just not right for this team anymore. Brad is great for the princeton offense, sadly, we are moving away from that. Are you a Brad Miller fan or a King's fan???BMiller52 said:Whatever man, more RPG than reef. Putting up 6 APG, on a good %, opening up the floor, yeah guess brad is just useless trash huh?Whatever.
