"Swoopes to endorse lesbian cruise line"

NothinButHoops said:
I'm sure many players are gay.
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Many?? And you know this how? Perhaps it seems like many because gay female athletese feel more comfortable coming out of the closet, unlike in other professions. But to presume that there are many is probably not correct. Like everything else in life, there is some of both.
 
Anybody else watching "Quite Frankly?"

Steven A. Smith just introduced an interesting outlook to this revelation, that I hadn't even considered yet: Allegedly, Swoopes and Alisa Scott began their relationship while Scott was still an assistant coach with the Houston Comets.

Now, being in the military, and having seen first-hand, on numerous occasions, the negative impact that fraternization can have, I have to agree one hundred percent with Steven A. on this issue: completely disregarding the matter of their respective sexualities, if Alisa Scott was involved with Sheryl Swoopes while she was in a position of authority and influence with the Houston Comets, then she should have been fired, plain and simple. In the military, we have a term to describe this: it's called "predjudicial to good order and discipline." As a coach, Alisa Scott's relationship with a player on her team compromises her authority, and calls her integrity into question.

The fact that Swoopes is the star of the team, and that Scott was just an assistant doesn't change this. If I were on a team, and learned that one of my teammates were involved with one of my coaches, I would raise holy hell. I wouldn't be able to recognize that coach's authority ever again; every decision that was made concerning the player, I would call into question. I would consider the coach's very integrity to be suspect.

Remember when the Rick Lopez story broke? If it came out that Geno Auriemma had a relationship with one of his players, there would be a nationwide backlash. And, just in case you want to make the argument that it would be different with him because it's college, there's not a doubt in my mind that if it were Mike Thibault and, say, Lindsay Whelan, that Thibault would get fired. It seems to me that this aspect of the story is getting "swept under the rug," so to speak, because of the "high profile" nature of Swoopes coming out, and I think that is a mistake, as a coach fraternizing with a player is a MUCH bigger story than an athlete's sexuality.

One other thing I agree with Steven A. about: Alisa Scott should consider herself lucky if she ever gets another coaching job.
 
The same thing was rumored to of happened with Anna DeForge and Liebermann. In fact, there was a huge article on it in SI. That one definitely got attention. I don't know why this one isn't, but whether it is allowed under team rules is what matters more than whether it is appropriate or not. Unless there is clearly a 'no fraterization' rule spelled out, the team can't do absolutely anything action-wise. I'm sure there have been many other cases, both homosexual and heterosexual, where players have had romantic relationships with their superiors.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Steven A. Smith just introduced an interesting outlook to this revelation, that I hadn't even considered yet: Allegedly, Swoopes and Alisa Scott began their relationship while Scott was still an assistant coach with the Houston Comets.

Now, being in the military, and having seen first-hand, on numerous occasions, the negative impact that fraternization can have, I have to agree one hundred percent with Steven A. on this issue: completely disregarding the matter of their respective sexualities, if Alisa Scott was involved with Sheryl Swoopes while she was in a position of authority and influence with the Houston Comets, then she should have been fired, plain and simple. In the military, we have a term to describe this: it's called "predjudicial to good order and discipline." As a coach, Alisa Scott's relationship with a player on her team compromises her authority, and calls her integrity into question.

The fact that Swoopes is the star of the team, and that Scott was just an assistant doesn't change this. If I were on a team, and learned that one of my teammates were involved with one of my coaches, I would raise holy hell. I wouldn't be able to recognize that coach's authority ever again; every decision that was made concerning the player, I would call into question. I would consider the coach's very integrity to be suspect.

Remember when the Rick Lopez story broke? If it came out that Geno Auriemma had a relationship with one of his players, there would be a nationwide backlash. And, just in case you want to make the argument that it would be different with him because it's college, there's not a doubt in my mind that if it were Mike Thibault and, say, Lindsay Whelan, that Thibault would get fired. It seems to me that this aspect of the story is getting "swept under the rug," so to speak, because of the "high profile" nature of Swoopes coming out, and I think that is a mistake, as a coach fraternizing with a player is a MUCH bigger story than an athlete's sexuality.

One other thing I agree with Steven A. about: Alisa Scott should consider herself lucky if she ever gets another coaching job.
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I cannot believe I'm saying this: I, too, agree with Steven A.

RD - The fact that there might or might not have been "many other cases" (which I would strongly doubt, BTW) where players had a romantic relationship with their superior isn't the point, IMHO, and it certainly shouldn't be okay unless the team has a specific rule against it. Some things should just be acknowledged to be improper with or without a rule. If you're in a position of authority with a team, you shouldn't be fraternizing with the players. It taints your authority and it certainly can influence your judgment.
 
RoyalDiva said:
The same thing was rumored to of happened with Anna DeForge and Liebermann. In fact, there was a huge article on it in SI. That one definitely got attention. I don't know why this one isn't, but whether it is allowed under team rules is what matters more than whether it is appropriate or not. Unless there is clearly a 'no fraterization' rule spelled out, the team can't do absolutely anything action-wise. I'm sure there have been many other cases, both homosexual and heterosexual, where players have had romantic relationships with their superiors.
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I strongly disagree, and if there isn't a rule against unduly familiar relationships in the WNBA's charter, then there should be.

I can only assume that our difference in opinion is due to a military/civilian differentiation. In my opinion, relationships between managers and subordinates is always inappropriate, and should NEVER be considered acceptable. I mean, what if you work with another woman who is sleeping with your supervisor? And, over a period of time, you begin to notice that this other woman always gets fifteen extra minutes for lunch, or always gets to leave a half-hour earlier than everybody else on Fridays... how can you ever be certain that she's not getting special treatment as a result of her relationship with your supervisor? How can you ever be sure that, if she scores higher on her performance evaluations, that that has nothing to do with it? How can you ever be sure that your supervisor isn't arguing in her favor just a little bit harder than they are for everybody else when it comes time to select Employee of the Month?

That's what I'm saying: when a subordinate has an unduly familiar relationship with a supervisor, every decision that supervisior makes becomes subject to scrutiny? How can you ever be sure that they're not playing favorites? To the detriment of everybody else?
 
It wasn't even allegedly, Swoopes and Scott according to Swoopes have been involved for 8 years. That relationship has not been secret to the Comets front office or the team. It was hardly swept under the rug any more than the relationship itself was because it wasn't as if higher up muckity mucks didn't know it was going on. I don't think it actually is being swept under the rug now either. It also is the likeliest of reasons why Scott is no longer on the Comet coaching staff because the scuttlebut I was hearing once Scott left to staff was that the organization finally nipped it.

The Lieberman issue is not the only one, it was the only one salacious enough to write an expose piece about, especially given Lieberman's past. But the one that no one talks much about which should have been just as concerning was the relationship between one of former Shock assistant coaches - John(?)Cross who was in a relationship with back up point guard Jae Kingi while she was still a member of the team. They later married when they both left the Shock organization under different circumstances.
 
That needs to be a policy of this league or each franchise if it isn't already. I've been railing for a no fraternization rule irrespective of gender sameness or difference.
 
Monty'sBiggestFan said:
I believe he left when Laimbeer or the guy Laimbeer replaced took over.
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Do you think that Laimbeer gave him a "resign or be fired" ultimatum? Because he strikes me as being that kind of guy.

And, by the way, I meant that it was "swept under the rug" inasmuch as there was absolutely zero national coverage on this issue until yesterday. You don't believe that, if Geno were involved with one of his players, that it wouldn't have made news outside of Storrs, do you?
 
If Geno were involved with a player yes. When that that guy does anything usually is national news. He cusses out a reporter it was on Sportscenter and on the ESPN website, Cappie Pondexter gives him a finger in the chest during a handshake line because he shouted an obscenity in her general vicinity - it was on Sportscenter and on ESPN.com....Whether he gets reprimanded for it is an entirely 'nother story.

He probably did get fired, and have it be called a housecleaning or a decision to pursue other things as Scott's departure was termed. I just can't for the life of me remember whose staff Cross worked on, he might have been part of Lieberman's staff or the staff of Greg Williams (? - I'm really drawing a blank on the name of the guy who had a cup of coffee with the Shock until they got Laimbeer). Kingi I do believe was released before he ever left so it wasn't technically "an issue" that they were involved when he left. Same as the case with Swoopes, since "nobody" knew she was gay until yesterday, Scott has not been a member of the staff for nearly a year so its not news. Its something to talk about no doubt, but its not "news".
 
Not disagreeing on that. That's why I had said earlier, I was very concerned about who it was she was involved with when I first heard about this 3 years ago. But the league needed to address it long before Swoopes came along and in their typical back***wardness they sorta manage to do it without doing the obvious like putting a no fraternization policy in place.
 
When I said many players are gay...I know this from stories I 've heard about the couples at the party's during the All-Star games. I won't go into them because I was not at these party's...so I guess it's hear say. Anyway I'm not going to debate this issue. I like the game of basketball & can care less about who's loving who. I do agree that players & coaches should not have a relationship. Just like I would'nt date my boss. A boss got fired at my job for making advances at a employee. Just the same I don't judge Swoopes.
 
VF21 said:
If you can find that link, I'd like to read the article.

The ladies of the WNBA, in my most humble of opinions, have had WAY too much attention - generally negative - paid to speculation about their sexuality, as though it somehow could be some sort of "reason" why some women played "almost as well" as the men. The quotes are to indicate comments we've all seen from the misogynists at various times...

I don't agree with the "this conversation needs to happen so people can talk about it and then get over it." I don't know if I can explain it properly, but in my mind people need to QUIT worrying about an athlete's sexual orientation entirely. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Some things, I believe, should not be open to public debate and/or judgment. Sexuality is way up on the top of the list of those things.
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I agree and wish sexuality was not an issue of discussion on any level for anybody anywhere. But the sad truth of the matter it is right now, and especially so for the women who play sports. And the situation is even getting to be more insidious at the collegiate level where it is starting to infringe on people’s livelihoods. As Voepel suggests, it's the continuing fear by society of what it really means for someone to be gay (or maybe more importantly what it DOESN'T mean) that causes this to be continually be discussed and for it to be always be in the background (on good days) in women's sports. We have a sports league that is about to turn 10, so this issue is going to be around for a while because neither is likely to go away 10 years from now. (Want a good backgrounder? Of the many excellent publications and information the Women's Sports Foundation has developed, the one they produced on homophobia in women’s sports is very good - they have resources that delve into the reasons why the perception and connection is so pervasive in women's athletics. Their publication on marketing women’s sports is excellent as well btw) .



In a companion piece yesterday Voepel also makes a call of sorts for somebody (perhaps more than just the media) to take on the practices that everybody knew were going on in the Penn State women’s basketball program under Rene Portland and also to explain why that situation has blown up recently because Portland has purportedly gone from not recruiting openly gay players to not wanting anybody she even SUSPECTS is gay on her team and how that relates to the mysterious dismissal of three of her players this March. The other side of this is the acknowledged practice in women’s basketball recruiting of raising the specter that an opposing coach is a lesbian as means of steering young women and their parents away from certain programs. Voepel touches on that, but I read a fuller article which I believe was published a couple of years ago in I think the Sports Business Journal or some similar publication. That article focused on Tara VanderVeer being one of the targets because of perceptions of her and why the WBCA and NCAA have been slow or reluctant or both to address the insidiousness of the practice. This has been cited as another reason why the number of women being hired at the head coach level collegiately is dwindling. Is that why the practice has continued in the W? Dunno, but the continuing references to “Lieberforge” seem to indicate that reverberations linger. (see fraternization discussion above).



“Many” to me seems to be more than some and less than all - and I think semantically it's probably accurate. Swoopes claims to have an idea of what the “ratio” is, although I’m not so sure I believe her figure and it seemed to be just thrown in as a expression rather than a statistical fact. I would guess if were to guess on such things, that the number is greater than the “2% of the population” figure that typically gets thrown into discussions.
 
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Not that it matters but count me as somebody who was just a lil surprise to hear about this.

I heard Koz's interview with Michele Voepal last night on the Showgram. They both had known this for years. Koz had known since he worked there with the Comets.

And to hear I am one of the few who didnt know makes me wonder just what else I dont know about the league.... sheesh;) I saw the ESPN crawler the other day and thought it was going to say she was retiring. But to my surprise it said she was out in the new addition of the magazine.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
I strongly disagree, and if there isn't a rule against unduly familiar relationships in the WNBA's charter, then there should be.

I can only assume that our difference in opinion is due to a military/civilian differentiation. In my opinion, relationships between managers and subordinates is always inappropriate, and should NEVER be considered acceptable. I mean, what if you work with another woman who is sleeping with your supervisor? And, over a period of time, you begin to notice that this other woman always gets fifteen extra minutes for lunch, or always gets to leave a half-hour earlier than everybody else on Fridays... how can you ever be certain that she's not getting special treatment as a result of her relationship with your supervisor? How can you ever be sure that, if she scores higher on her performance evaluations, that that has nothing to do with it? How can you ever be sure that your supervisor isn't arguing in her favor just a little bit harder than they are for everybody else when it comes time to select Employee of the Month?

That's what I'm saying: when a subordinate has an unduly familiar relationship with a supervisor, every decision that supervisior makes becomes subject to scrutiny? How can you ever be sure that they're not playing favorites? To the detriment of everybody else?
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Maybe the NBA should have the same rule ;) .

Anyways, although no one in this forum cares what I think I though I would give my .02 cents:

WHO CARES!!

Unsure as to why this had to be on the ESPN crawl for 2 straight days!! Good for her for showing the courage to come out but does it really need to be headline news???

Back to Slim's point. I have been in Management for about 10 years(I just got out thankfully and now work on my own from home) and there is nothing worse than having to deal with co-workers who are having a relationship. It was comical for the other employees but it really tried my patience as a Manager. I think this is a different scenario just because of who Swoopes is and who her partner was. Swoopes has been one of the, if not the, best player in the WNBA so I don't think the opinion of an Assistant Coach would matter. My guess is maybe Swoopes was the one that got her the job??
 
VF21 said:
I cannot believe I'm saying this: I, too, agree with Steven A.

RD - The fact that there might or might not have been "many other cases" (which I would strongly doubt, BTW) where players had a romantic relationship with their superior isn't the point, IMHO, and it certainly shouldn't be okay unless the team has a specific rule against it. Some things should just be acknowledged to be improper with or without a rule. If you're in a position of authority with a team, you shouldn't be fraternizing with the players. It taints your authority and it certainly can influence your judgment.
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I NEVER said that it wasn't appropriate. I agree with you all on this matter and think that it is very inappropriate and would not want to have to deal with that in my workplace. I was just pointing out that logistically, unless the team's conduct rules clearly spell out 'no fraternization', there's not a darn thing that anyone can do to stop it. Perhaps with these two events happening now, team's rules should include that, but I bet the union would raise a fuss over it, claiming 'invasion of privacy' or something lame like that. In the Liebermann/DeForge case, their relationship clearly got in the way of the business side, as DeForge went from being a 6th man to being one of the star players, even though her skills didn't warrant it. It probably was one of the reasons that Liebermann lost her job.
 
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My company's client, a major banking corporation, clearly has 'no fraternization' in their employee policy manual. However, this only applies to subordinates having relationships with insubordinates. And I remember years ago working in entry-level retail at one store where the rule was if you were involved with another employee, one of you had to be transferred to work at another store. I believe I have read news stories in the past where employees have tried to legally fight these no frat policies, claiming that it was unfair, but I don't know what the rulings were. Probably in the companys' favor I imagine for the policy to be still alive in today's business world.
 
The policies dealing with co-workers are a little bit more tenuous, but not completely indefensible. But the relationship between management and employees should be a no-brainer. It's called "sexual harassment lawsuit prevention 101"

In this situation, the power inequity wasn't from the coaching staff, it more than likely from Swoopes' side. She probably has more clout in that organization than Scott ever did over the years. If that relationship had gone awry, it also would not have been Swoopes who was moved from the Houston payroll, although Houston was prepared to move both this past offseason. It became very hard from what I was hearing, to explain why in TV shots of the USA rooting section in Athens last summer, people were seeing Scott babysitting Sheryl's son Jordan instead of her being in Houston helping the other Comet assistant coach Kevin Cook work with the rest of the Comets team.

I would bet big money that if Sports Illustrated was the periodical having the exclusive sit-down with Swoopes hitting the newsstands this week, it would have not gotten the crawl space. ESPN has a magazine to sell. That's all this hype is about.
 
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